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You know what's sick? The fact that we slaughter 10 billion sentient, thinking animals in the United States each year. And then we have the nerve to be appalled

You know what's sick? The fact that we slaughter 10 billion sentient, thinking animals in the United States each year. And then we have the nerve to be appalled that a tiny sliver of that suffering is transferred to humans. There are not enough words to describe how misguided we all are.

moron4hire 17y ago
I really don't think you can fairly call cows sentient. Along with chickens and turkeys, they are some of the dumbest creatures around. They're barely more than walking vegetables.
- justlearning 17y ago
  I had to reply as I accidentally upvoted you. I don't want to get into meat vs veg, but considering meat as "walking vegtables" is inhumane thought. Have you spent some time with any animals? Go spend some time with some hens/roosters and their chickens. spend a day watching - watch how the mother hen teaches her chickens to hop over obstacles and the chickens trying to find the shortest path to hop over. Watch how each individual chickens have their own personality. Watch the roosters personality - dominance/sexual drive... My maternal grandfather had cows back in India. Every cow would respond differently. He would talk to them, The calf would listen to him(when he would milk the cow, the calf would get impatient for mumma's milk). One of the cows wouldn't allow anyone other than my grand mom/grandfather to milk her.I have more anecdotes, which helps me in connecting them animals and us animals. So much for walking vegetables!. Perhaps you are just visiting here. Perhaps you are here for the long run, but imho, please spend a lot of time reading here(searchyc for archives) before commenting.
  - evgen 17y ago
    A rat will nurture their young far more than a chicken, is much smarter, and will display more personality than a chicken ever will. OTOH, if one shows up in your kitchen I am sure you will be on the phone to the exterminator in minutes. Just because a chicken or cow is cute does not make it "special" and anthropomorphizing the activities of that animal is a pretty weak argument.
    - ibnez120 17y ago
      Nobody on this forum has argued for granting other animals moral consideration based on cuteness or anthropomorphism. I didn't see anyone elevating anything else over rats, either. Farm animals and rats intrinsically deserve not to be tortured.
      - moron4hire 17y ago
        Torture was never mentioned by anyone other than the anti-meat crowd here.
        ibnez120 17y ago
        That might be because we're the only ones here who are willing to call it what it is. Meat-eaters may not want to admit that they are most often supporting unbelievable torture -- a human's worst nightmare, in fact. Obviously, the issue of torture is implicit in discussions of meat-eating in our time, as the vast majority of meat has been tortured before it's been eaten.
        evgen 17y ago
        There is a difference between pain response and suffering. The latter requires the consciousness to know what the future has in store for the organism. Animals can be abused, but very few of them have the level of consciousness required for the abuse to be "torture." You can pretend that animals are people too all you want, but wishing it to be true does not make it so.
        ibnez120 17y ago
        evgen, You are completely wrong when you say "very few of them" have the level of consciousness required for the abuse to be torture." All factory farmed animals are tortured physically and psychologically -- tens of billions the world over. The vast majority, if not all, of lab-tested animals are tortured physically and psychologically. You have no idea what it is to be tortured (not that this is required to take those who have been tortured at their word). If you did, you wouldn't dismiss the torture of those with very similar central nervous systems to ours so lightly. And the fact is, torture of human animals can bring out all the fight or flight evolutionary responses and fears we have within us as a result of our completely animal history and existence. Your cavalier approach to the tremendous suffering of others is a disgrace. Once, again, you are trying to draw arbitrary lines based on what you want to be true to justify your own behaviors, which are morally indefensible. Do the research for yourself, since you don't want to listen to reason from anyone else.
  - moron4hire 17y ago
    did you really just tell me to "lurk moar noob"?
    - justlearning 17y ago
      no i didn't. whatever i said is based on the style of your expression, which I thought was unlike usual comments. my explanation was related to "walking vegetables". I already mentioned I don't want to get into meat/anti-meat.
- jeremymims 17y ago
  Sentience is being able to experience pleasure or pain (which cows certainly do), not a measure of intelligence. We do not execute young children or the mentally disabled nor do we enslave them.
  - evgen 17y ago
    The ability to perceive pleasure/pain is not enough. An amoeba will move away from a negative stimulus, so sentience is completely unimportant. What can be said is that cows are not sapient/conscious. The reason we do not view young children similarly for the same lacking sapience is that we know they will very likely gain this attribute as they grow older; cows will never do so.
    - ibnez120 17y ago
      "What can be said is that cows are not sapient/conscious." The ability to perceive pleasure and pain is absolutely enough to not be tortured and slaughtered. You have done nothing to prove (or even argue) that it shouldn't be, yet the burden is on you before you can justify torture and slaughter, which you have to admit is at least potentially morally catastrophic. The claim that cows are not conscious is patently ridiculous. Not only have you avoided defining what it is to be conscious, but the scientific evidence is also mounting against your position. For you to compare the complex sentience/nervous systems of farm animals to the single-celled existence of amoebas is, quite frankly, insane. Again, you have done nothing to support your claim. The reason you choose to believe this about cows and other animals -- despite mounting scientific evidence to the contrary -- and not about children is that you find it convenient to do so in our current cultural/legal framework. And that's a truly stupid reason. No one should take your remarks here seriously.
      - danielmims 17y ago
        The scientific evidence supporting the similarity of other animals' experiences of the world to humans' experiences is indeed "mounting." It shouldn't have to, because the incredibly evidenced theory of evolution -- the single unifying idea behind all modern biological understanding -- necessitates that such is the case. But scientists are also species-ist, even when the truth stares them right in the face. Oh, and I would like to take a moment to point out that humans, via that supposedly morally superior "sapience" (talk about a circular, species-indulgent term), have used their intelligence to needlessly torture and kill tens of billions of fellow creatures every year in death camps, and to cause the only mass extinction of life on Earth ever initiated by a single species. If moral status comes down to what you do -- not what you are -- then humanity has a lot of work to do, and a lot of sacrifice to make, before it can claim the mantle of special moral worth.
- ibnez120 17y ago
  moron4hire, You'd be less intelligent too if you'd been selectively bred for thousands of years to promote complacence and stupidity. Still, to call farm animals "barely more than walking vegetables" is highly uninformed. Pigs, for one, have been shown to be about as intelligent as dogs. Cows have been shown to celebrate after solving problems. Chickens and turkeys seem to be less intelligent, but they are nonetheless worthy of serious moral consideration.
  - moron4hire 17y ago
    While jeremymims didn't explicitly espouse a vegan viewpoint, he did mention the "slaughter [of] 10 billion sentient, thinking animals", an emotionally charged choice of words which in my experience is a characterization that only ever comes from a vegan viepoint. Serious moral consideration is a whole different story than "don't eat them". This article, and thus my statement, has nothing to do with the torture of animals. Most of my meat comes from local farmers, people I know personally, even places I worked when I was a kid. Cattle can and are raised in humane conditions. But when a cow can push against an electric fence, recoil from getting shocked, and then push on the fence again, there is clearly something missing in that cow brain that accounts for learning in other creatures. Cows are not intelligent creatures.
    - danielmims 17y ago
      "While jeremymims didn't explicitly espouse a vegan viewpoint, he did mention the "slaughter [of] 10 billion sentient, thinking animals", an emotionally charged choice of words which in my experience is a characterization that only ever comes from a vegan viepoint." "Emotionally charged," eh? Is it not "slaughter?" Of course it is. Are these slaughtered creatures not "sentient" -- that is, do they not have the ability to experience sensations? Of course they do. Are they not "thinking," even though they use their brains to process sensory inputs? Of course they are. Tell me, when did facts become "emotional" expressions? You should really bother to ask yourself, What exactly do I deny about his statement?, prior to auto-defending whatever thought first comes to mind. "Serious moral consideration is a whole different story than "don't eat them"." You definitely win the obliviousness award. "Serious moral consideration" requires that you not arbitrarily dismiss viewpoints simply because you have a bias against the label. All you've stated is that you have an aversion to the word "vegan." You haven't made any other point whatsoever. "Serious moral consideration," indeed. "But when a cow can push against an electric fence, recoil from getting shocked, and then push on the fence again, there is clearly something missing in that cow brain that accounts for learning in other creatures." Perhaps the cow is like countless human prisoners throughout history, who have gone insane at the tedium of their prolonged imprisonment. Perhaps the cow has not lost its mental footing, but instead prefers the sensation of something, anything, rather than the tedium of standing in a stall. "Cows are not intelligent creatures." Clearly, you've done a great study into the matter. I'm sure you know that cows have personalities and problem-solving abilities. I'm certain that you must know they share every part of the human brain except for the pre-frontal cortex, which allows us to do all sorts of bad things. So, maybe they're not smart enough to enslave, torture, and murder other animals en masse, but hey, that isn't really a strike against them.
ludwig 17y ago
I can't wait until we can grow meat and other organs in "standalone-mode". There wouldn't be any need for slaughter when we reach that level of technology.

moron4hire 17y ago

I really don't think you can fairly call cows sentient. Along with chickens and turkeys, they are some of the dumbest creatures around. They're barely more than walking vegetables.

justlearning 17y ago
I had to reply as I accidentally upvoted you. I don't want to get into meat vs veg, but considering meat as "walking vegtables" is inhumane thought. Have you spent some time with any animals? Go spend some time with some hens/roosters and their chickens. spend a day watching - watch how the mother hen teaches her chickens to hop over obstacles and the chickens trying to find the shortest path to hop over. Watch how each individual chickens have their own personality. Watch the roosters personality - dominance/sexual drive... My maternal grandfather had cows back in India. Every cow would respond differently. He would talk to them, The calf would listen to him(when he would milk the cow, the calf would get impatient for mumma's milk). One of the cows wouldn't allow anyone other than my grand mom/grandfather to milk her.I have more anecdotes, which helps me in connecting them animals and us animals. So much for walking vegetables!. Perhaps you are just visiting here. Perhaps you are here for the long run, but imho, please spend a lot of time reading here(searchyc for archives) before commenting.
- evgen 17y ago
  A rat will nurture their young far more than a chicken, is much smarter, and will display more personality than a chicken ever will. OTOH, if one shows up in your kitchen I am sure you will be on the phone to the exterminator in minutes. Just because a chicken or cow is cute does not make it "special" and anthropomorphizing the activities of that animal is a pretty weak argument.
  - ibnez120 17y ago
    Nobody on this forum has argued for granting other animals moral consideration based on cuteness or anthropomorphism. I didn't see anyone elevating anything else over rats, either. Farm animals and rats intrinsically deserve not to be tortured.
    - moron4hire 17y ago
      Torture was never mentioned by anyone other than the anti-meat crowd here.
      - ibnez120 17y ago
        That might be because we're the only ones here who are willing to call it what it is. Meat-eaters may not want to admit that they are most often supporting unbelievable torture -- a human's worst nightmare, in fact. Obviously, the issue of torture is implicit in discussions of meat-eating in our time, as the vast majority of meat has been tortured before it's been eaten.
        evgen 17y ago
        There is a difference between pain response and suffering. The latter requires the consciousness to know what the future has in store for the organism. Animals can be abused, but very few of them have the level of consciousness required for the abuse to be "torture." You can pretend that animals are people too all you want, but wishing it to be true does not make it so.
        ibnez120 17y ago
        evgen, You are completely wrong when you say "very few of them" have the level of consciousness required for the abuse to be torture." All factory farmed animals are tortured physically and psychologically -- tens of billions the world over. The vast majority, if not all, of lab-tested animals are tortured physically and psychologically. You have no idea what it is to be tortured (not that this is required to take those who have been tortured at their word). If you did, you wouldn't dismiss the torture of those with very similar central nervous systems to ours so lightly. And the fact is, torture of human animals can bring out all the fight or flight evolutionary responses and fears we have within us as a result of our completely animal history and existence. Your cavalier approach to the tremendous suffering of others is a disgrace. Once, again, you are trying to draw arbitrary lines based on what you want to be true to justify your own behaviors, which are morally indefensible. Do the research for yourself, since you don't want to listen to reason from anyone else.
- moron4hire 17y ago
  did you really just tell me to "lurk moar noob"?
  - justlearning 17y ago
    no i didn't. whatever i said is based on the style of your expression, which I thought was unlike usual comments. my explanation was related to "walking vegetables". I already mentioned I don't want to get into meat/anti-meat.
jeremymims 17y ago
Sentience is being able to experience pleasure or pain (which cows certainly do), not a measure of intelligence. We do not execute young children or the mentally disabled nor do we enslave them.
- evgen 17y ago
  The ability to perceive pleasure/pain is not enough. An amoeba will move away from a negative stimulus, so sentience is completely unimportant. What can be said is that cows are not sapient/conscious. The reason we do not view young children similarly for the same lacking sapience is that we know they will very likely gain this attribute as they grow older; cows will never do so.
  - ibnez120 17y ago
    "What can be said is that cows are not sapient/conscious." The ability to perceive pleasure and pain is absolutely enough to not be tortured and slaughtered. You have done nothing to prove (or even argue) that it shouldn't be, yet the burden is on you before you can justify torture and slaughter, which you have to admit is at least potentially morally catastrophic. The claim that cows are not conscious is patently ridiculous. Not only have you avoided defining what it is to be conscious, but the scientific evidence is also mounting against your position. For you to compare the complex sentience/nervous systems of farm animals to the single-celled existence of amoebas is, quite frankly, insane. Again, you have done nothing to support your claim. The reason you choose to believe this about cows and other animals -- despite mounting scientific evidence to the contrary -- and not about children is that you find it convenient to do so in our current cultural/legal framework. And that's a truly stupid reason. No one should take your remarks here seriously.
    - danielmims 17y ago
      The scientific evidence supporting the similarity of other animals' experiences of the world to humans' experiences is indeed "mounting." It shouldn't have to, because the incredibly evidenced theory of evolution -- the single unifying idea behind all modern biological understanding -- necessitates that such is the case. But scientists are also species-ist, even when the truth stares them right in the face. Oh, and I would like to take a moment to point out that humans, via that supposedly morally superior "sapience" (talk about a circular, species-indulgent term), have used their intelligence to needlessly torture and kill tens of billions of fellow creatures every year in death camps, and to cause the only mass extinction of life on Earth ever initiated by a single species. If moral status comes down to what you do -- not what you are -- then humanity has a lot of work to do, and a lot of sacrifice to make, before it can claim the mantle of special moral worth.
ibnez120 17y ago
moron4hire, You'd be less intelligent too if you'd been selectively bred for thousands of years to promote complacence and stupidity. Still, to call farm animals "barely more than walking vegetables" is highly uninformed. Pigs, for one, have been shown to be about as intelligent as dogs. Cows have been shown to celebrate after solving problems. Chickens and turkeys seem to be less intelligent, but they are nonetheless worthy of serious moral consideration.
- moron4hire 17y ago
  While jeremymims didn't explicitly espouse a vegan viewpoint, he did mention the "slaughter [of] 10 billion sentient, thinking animals", an emotionally charged choice of words which in my experience is a characterization that only ever comes from a vegan viepoint. Serious moral consideration is a whole different story than "don't eat them". This article, and thus my statement, has nothing to do with the torture of animals. Most of my meat comes from local farmers, people I know personally, even places I worked when I was a kid. Cattle can and are raised in humane conditions. But when a cow can push against an electric fence, recoil from getting shocked, and then push on the fence again, there is clearly something missing in that cow brain that accounts for learning in other creatures. Cows are not intelligent creatures.
  - danielmims 17y ago
    "While jeremymims didn't explicitly espouse a vegan viewpoint, he did mention the "slaughter [of] 10 billion sentient, thinking animals", an emotionally charged choice of words which in my experience is a characterization that only ever comes from a vegan viepoint." "Emotionally charged," eh? Is it not "slaughter?" Of course it is. Are these slaughtered creatures not "sentient" -- that is, do they not have the ability to experience sensations? Of course they do. Are they not "thinking," even though they use their brains to process sensory inputs? Of course they are. Tell me, when did facts become "emotional" expressions? You should really bother to ask yourself, What exactly do I deny about his statement?, prior to auto-defending whatever thought first comes to mind. "Serious moral consideration is a whole different story than "don't eat them"." You definitely win the obliviousness award. "Serious moral consideration" requires that you not arbitrarily dismiss viewpoints simply because you have a bias against the label. All you've stated is that you have an aversion to the word "vegan." You haven't made any other point whatsoever. "Serious moral consideration," indeed. "But when a cow can push against an electric fence, recoil from getting shocked, and then push on the fence again, there is clearly something missing in that cow brain that accounts for learning in other creatures." Perhaps the cow is like countless human prisoners throughout history, who have gone insane at the tedium of their prolonged imprisonment. Perhaps the cow has not lost its mental footing, but instead prefers the sensation of something, anything, rather than the tedium of standing in a stall. "Cows are not intelligent creatures." Clearly, you've done a great study into the matter. I'm sure you know that cows have personalities and problem-solving abilities. I'm certain that you must know they share every part of the human brain except for the pre-frontal cortex, which allows us to do all sorts of bad things. So, maybe they're not smart enough to enslave, torture, and murder other animals en masse, but hey, that isn't really a strike against them.

ludwig 17y ago

I can't wait until we can grow meat and other organs in "standalone-mode". There wouldn't be any need for slaughter when we reach that level of technology.