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Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf]

353 points by kyledrake 12y ago

bbit 12y ago
Biggest assclown in the senate. Communist.
mikeyouse 12y ago
Note that Franken wrote this as the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law. The committee's mandate / scope: Jurisdiction: (1) Oversight of laws and policies governing the collection, protection, use and dissemination of commercial information by the private sector, including online behavioral advertising, privacy within social networking websites and other online privacy issues; (2) Enforcement and implementation of commercial information privacy laws and policies; (3) Use of technology by the private sector to protect privacy, enhance transparency and encourage innovation; (4) Privacy standards for the collection, retention, use and dissemination of personally identifiable commercial information; and (5) Privacy implications of new or emerging technologies.
tomcam 12y ago
I dislike Al Franken's politics greatly, but I think it's every bit his right to use the bully pulpit this way (I mean this sincerely). If Uber did track a journalist it is reprehensible. But how Uber could benefit from answering this fishing expedition? If I were Uber I'd simply stonewall. They are under no legal compunction to answer, and virtually no answer would help them.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  > If I were Uber I'd simply stonewall. The federal government can make your life extremely difficult, fully funded startup or not.
  - smt88 12y ago
    This is an irrelevant point, but it's a stretch to call a 5-year-old company with $2B in revenue a "startup".
    - toomuchtodo 12y ago
      You're an experiment/startup until you're profitable, at which point you become a real business.
      - smt88 12y ago
        That's absurd. By that definition, Amazon, a 20-year-old company with $74 billion in revenue, is a startup. Profitability has a lot to do with how you spend your money. "Startup" is commonly used to connote a small, new business. The dictionary says it is a "fledgling" business. If Uber's revenue were the GDP of a nation, it would have 40 countries ranked below it. That's not a "fledgling" business, even if it isn't profitable.
      - rtpg 12y ago
        Loads of real businesses are not profitable (and will eventually fall over).
- brianpgordon 12y ago
  I imagine this is just a courtesy; if they decline to answer, then the committee can issue a subpoena and compel them to. Here's a nice white paper on Congress's subpoena power: http://www.mayerbrown.com/files/Publication/ec1203b2-a787-44ac-8344-5d5fab374ffa/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/11509b8b-df81-4db6-9e89-1d1b16c20856/White-Paper-Congressional-Subpoena.pdf http://www.mayerbrown.com/files/Publication/ec1203b2-a787-44...
  - msherry 12y ago
    That was really interesting, thanks. In particular, "The Enforcement Process. Congressional investigations often begin informally, with the interested committee or subcommittee first seeking information on a voluntary basis (i.e., by sending a letter request or asking for an informal interview), rather than by issuing compulsory subpoenas. Although there is no legal obligation that a party comply with such a request, it is typically in the responding party’s best interest to do so"
  - andrewpi 12y ago
    Franken will no longer be Chairman of this committee in January when the Democrats are no longer in control of the US Senate.
    - hudibras 12y ago
      Even if this is a Democratic-only concern (which I don't think it is), this would be an easy one for a Senator in the minority to sell to the Chairman as a personal favor. It would just be a subpoena to answer some questions; the Chairman wouldn't be signing up to actually do anything like sponsoring legislation.
  - tomcam 12y ago
    Fascinating! So the letter is probably a veiled threat. I hope the Senate has better things to do with its time, though a debate of much stronger privacy laws would be a healthy outcome of this mess.
- WildUtah 12y ago
  "But how Uber could benefit from answering this fishing expedition?" It's an opportunity to establish publicly that your company won't be engaging in any of the kind of shenanigans that can cost you customers in a competitive industry.
A_COMPUTER 12y ago
So, I completely agree with this letter, but I felt a sense of unease reading it. I realized why. Other companies are as bad or worse about privacy, where are all those letters? I wish there were a lot more of these and wonder if the only reason this one exists is because the blowup with Uber was so visible and so it can be used for political posturing.
- w4 12y ago
  This was my reaction as well. Yes, Uber's behavior here is reprehensible. But it's also kid stuff compared to what other entities (including the Federal Government itself, whose behavior we never agreed to in a TOS agreement) are engaged in, and I have to wonder what, if any, authority the government could exert in these circumstances (disregarding the appropriateness of the use of said authority, or any potential legislative action). Assuming nothing about Uber's user terms and agreements aren't unlawful, it's almost certainly the case that, as alluded to by Franken's letter, users of Uber have agreed to provide Uber with this sort of access to their usage of the app. So while I agree with the spirit of what Frankin is saying, I'm just left with distaste for what obvious posturing and pandering it is.
  - smt88 12y ago
    I see what you're saying, but there are two things that make this more egregious than other (assumed) offenses. First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly. Their hubris needs to be curbed this way. Second, Uber explicitly wanted to go after a member of the press. The press is our shield against all the evil that is done against the public by governments and corporations. We need our journalists to feel absolutely safe in their chosen profession. We may disagree with or even hate some of them, but we have to show people considering such an important career that it won't put them at risk. As far as I know, Google and other companies are using/gathering our information equally legally. They might be doing something nefarious with it, but at least they claim to be responsible and honorable. With the exception of their press releases, Uber seems proud of their ruthlessness and lack of integrity.
    - 12y ago
AndrewKemendo 12y ago
What are the rules here for Uber? Are they compelled to respond or can they just ignore this letter and move on?
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  They could ignore it, but then they could be subpoenaed, which they cannot ignore. Completely ignoring it would likely bring quite unpleasant results. Even with the subcommittee chairmanship changing party hands, Senators aren't going to look kindly on a company ignoring a request for information.
- nostromo 12y ago
  They can ignore the letter. The committee could then issue a subpoena to force them to answer questions. Uber could refuse the subpoena. If they did, Uber could be held in contempt of congress. But, that would require a full vote -- which seems very unlikely. Hilariously, the last person to refuse to testify before congress was an IRS director (Lois Lerner). She was held in contempt... and then nothing happened whatsoever. Congress's real power is to pass laws. Franken won't be doing much of that with the Republicans in control of the Senate. I wouldn't be shaking in my boots if I was Uber...
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  They're not compelled to respond but they will, because it's good politics to do so, and it's potentially a good chance to carefully craft a message to defend themselves.
leephillips 12y ago
Franken supported the NSA as the surveillance scandal broke: "I can assure you, this is not about spying on the American people." [http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/the-nsa-has-at-least-1-liberal-friend-left-sen-al-franken-20130611 http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/the-nsa-has-at-least...]. I thought it was relevant.
- mikeyouse 12y ago
  Franken also co-sponsored the original (much better) version of the bill that was voted down yesterday to prevent NSA dragnet surveillance: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050720/tech-firms-push-for-nsa-surveillance-transparency-bills.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050720/tech-firms-push-for-n... http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/1/4790484/can-the-nsa-transparency-bills-make-it-through-congress http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/1/4790484/can-the-nsa-transp... Politics aren't always black and white..
  - 001sky 12y ago
    Even Better, yesterday was just a dog and pony show. The 2009 dissent, led by a senior NSA official and embraced by others at the agency, prompted the Obama administration to consider, but ultimately abandon, a plan to stop gathering the records. The secret internal debate has not been previously reported. The Senate on Tuesday rejected an administration proposal that would have curbed the program and left the records in the hands of telephone companies rather than the government. That would be an arrangement similar to the one the administration quietly rejected in 2009.
- c9a 12y ago
  Here's a relevant op-ed he wrote for CNN near the same time, where he called for more transparency on domestic surveillance. http://www.franken.senate.gov/?p=news&id=2513 http://www.franken.senate.gov/?p=news&id=2513 > Since I came to the Senate, I've been working to fix this. I've supported amendments to the Patriot Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that would have required greater public reporting on the use of surveillance authorities and greater disclosures about the legal opinions and safeguards that support them. When those amendments failed, I voted against renewing both of these laws. From the article you posted, you left out a few relevant quotes. > In an early 2006 AlterNet interview before he was officially running for Senate, Franken disparaged the Bush administration's NSA warrantless-surveillance program > At a September 2009 Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the reauthorization of expiring components of the USA Patriot Act, Franken read the Fourth Amendment to the assistant attorney general for national security as a means of questioning the act's "roving wiretap" provision. Franken would also eventually vote against a 2012 reauthorization of the FISA amendments that give the government wide surveillance authority. > Before voting against reauthorizing the FISA amendments last year, Sen. Franken also cosponsored and voted for three amendments that his office says would have "improved the bill on transparency and privacy."
debacle 12y ago
It seems like a lot of things are coming home to roost right now for Uber. As with many things, I think that Uber is the first player in an arena where the second player tends to survive (because they learn from all the first player's mistakes for free, the groundwork is laid, etc). The barrier to entry for an Uber competitor is quite low and trust is the only thing that keeps Uber afloat. If they don't realize that and act accordingly, they could die relatively quickly.
- imjk 12y ago
  I keep hearing this argument that the barrier to entry is so low for an Uber competitor, but I think people massively underestimate the difficulty of successfully running a system like Uber. Here in Boston where Uber has wide adoption, I just watched a competitor with an impressive team (Hailo) fold up shop as they struggled to gain traction and compete. Where are all these other competitors that are going to come along and easily compete with Uber. Not to mention, there's huge advantages that network affects have in the vertical.
  - debacle 12y ago
    The hailo model seems very different from the Uber/Lyft model. More upscale, so I'm guessing a higher barrier to entry for drivers (and it looks like a smaller driver pool).
    - imjk 12y ago
      I find this ironic. When I used Hailo in Boston, it actually only integrated with taxis then moved to private drives. Uber on the other hand, contrary to what you're saying, started with only black cars then shifted to include taxis, and eventually UberX.
- kjksf 12y ago
  The "low barrier to entry" is repeated on every Uber story and I don't get it. It's a business with a very strong network effects: you need both sides of the market because without drivers, users are not interested and without users drivers are not interested. Uber seems to have a big lead over competition here, is growing like crazy and they raised insane amounts of capital so that they can grow faster than competition. But even without network effects, I don't see that as an easy to replicate business: * you need a great iOS app * you need a great Android app * you need a backed that is both fast and has rock solid 24/7 reliability. it can't be like Twitter in early days * you need to become a payment processor that interjects itself between users and drivers, which I'm sure comes with its own set of legal and logistic challenges * and you need to do it internationally * and you need a massive operation team whose job is to onboard new drivers (recruit, train, supervise) * you need a legal team because every state can have different rules * and you need them also internationally I really don't see any of the above as easy to pull off and to do it all well, that requires both technical and operational excellence that few have.
omgitstom 12y ago
Publicity stunt. When has he ever been worried about privacy in relation to his stance for the NSA? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/al-franken-nsa_n_3423413.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/al-franken-nsa_n_34...
- mikeyouse 12y ago
  I replied elsewhere as well, but Franken was a co-sponsor for Sen. Leahy's NSA reform bill that was killed yesterday. Even the AEI gives Franken credit for this; http://www.techpolicydaily.com/technology/nsa-surveillance-reform-prospects/ http://www.techpolicydaily.com/technology/nsa-surveillance-r...
  - omgitstom 12y ago
    Thanks, I'm a little behind on what he has been up to.
NamTaf 12y ago
I note that many of the questions are around the processes, training, rules, etc. that govern the use of technology developed by Uber. This is important. Systems Engineering teaches the concept of POSTED: People, Organisation, Support, Training, Equipment and Doctrine. When a system is developed, it must give consideration to all of these aspects. Failing to do so means you design an incomplete system. In this case, Uber has developed a piece of Equipment, their God Mode view. Franken's asking about the other pieces of the system, such as the training, support and doctrine and people. These are equally as important to design, document and implement. Failing to give due consideration to these aspects of the system is no different to having an incomplete equipment solution developed. I'm interested to see whether Uber gave due consideration to these aspects of the system. There's something to be said about startups moving fast to develop technology but not necessarily the other aspects of a complete system. Mature systems engineering / software development firms do this day in and day out. Yes, it can lead to slower iteration on the core technology and capabilities, but it is critically important to consider. I suspect it's often a pinch point when start-ups try to scale, for example when a piece of technology then needs to consider user access rights, etc.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - srs0001 12y ago
    I don't think the condescending tone is necessary—there are actually about ten million links if you spell organization correctly. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22People%2C+Organisation%2C+Support%2C+Training%2C+Equipment+and+Doctrine%22#q=People,+Organization,+Support,+Training,+Equipment+and+Doctrine https://www.google.com/search?q=%22People%2C+Organisation%2C... EDIT: Removed quotes.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - andymcsherry 12y ago
      While the condescending tone is unnecessary, logicallee is right. There are actually zero links, Google just removes the quotes and shows results for that. None of them seem to have all the words together or the acronym. Just random occurrences of words on the page, and it's predominantly military documents.
downandout 12y ago
This is officially the most blown-out-of-proportion story in the history of the Internet. When was the last time the US Senate got involved after you went on a rant at a party? I'm certain that Sarah Lacy is enjoying both the attention and the money from pageviews, but this is getting ridiculous.
- smrtinsert 12y ago
  As soon as someone jokes at about the potential of putting someones family in harms way, it is no longer a joke. I couldn't stand SL at TC but I'm 100% behind on her this one.
  - viscanti 12y ago
    Where were the allegations of putting someone's family in harms way? The initial reports read like it was a hypothetical solution to show bias in tech journalism. SL happens to work at a blog who was funded by a competitor of Uber. Real journalists give full notice about potential conflicts of interest (especially when they write flimsy attack articles). Exposing that unacknowledged conflict of interest doesn't seem like it puts someone's family in harms way. All it would do is show clear bias in a clearly biased attack article.
- zecho 12y ago
  Overstatements are hilarious no matter where they come from. For example: "When was the last time the US Senate got involved after you went on a rant at a party?" I am not a SVP of a company valued in the billions working in a highly regulated industry. I also didn't do the rant at a private "party" designed to improve relations with prominent members of the media that covers my particular industry. Also, the Senate sends letters on all sorts of mundane matters. That is not the issue of proportion here. The issue is the media giving undue emphasis to stories involving the media.
- thinkling 12y ago
  I get that people sometimes say stupid things after two or three glasses of wine. And I get that blabbing about something is different from actually doing it. But this was egregiously beyond the boundaries of basic ethics and societal values, and a company executive should know better. So you may think it's overblown, but I'd like Uber to feel that this is not OK, so it got me to finally install the Lyft app which I'll be giving a try.
mxpxrocks10 12y ago
best part of the letter - two words I thought I'd never hear together: "BuzzFeed reported"
- iaw 12y ago
  In a letter from the head of a senate subcommittee no less.
marincounty 12y ago
Yes--the Boober made some asinine statements. Let him dig his way out of his utter foolishness. Now to Uber. I was shocked what they expect you to buy and drive in order to become a Uber Driver. Nothing less than a 2008 vechicle? And the list of acceptabe cars? After insurance it just dosen't add up--unless your sleeping in you car, or your in a brand spanking new market. In all reality, maybe he said these things just to get the free advertising? It's too bad it's come to this? That said, is there any freeware uber/Lyft type code floating around? Just curious?
- jemacniddle 12y ago
  Do you have a link to the original 'boober' transcript? Haven't been able to find one, context is everything so I'd rather have the full backstory before making any assumptions.
  - aaronbrethorst 12y ago
    It took about 30 seconds of Googling to turn up a link to the GQ interview where this was originally reported. http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201403/uber-cab-confessions?currentPage=1&printable=true http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201403/uber-cab-c...
    - jemacniddle 12y ago
      "Not to make assumptions, but Kalanick probably wasn't the first kid in his class to lose his virginity. But the way he talks now—which is large—he's surely making up for lost time. When I tease him about his skyrocketing desirability, he deflects with a wisecrack about women on demand: “Yeah, we call that Boob-er.”" Yeah seems more like an insult than a transcript to a conversation.
johnsmith32 12y ago
It seems that most are commenting on why Uber executive shouldn't be doing this. But none has viewed this from Uber's perspective. If your startup was being threatened by a brown-nosing bonus-loving trigger-happy reporter, what are you going to do? Publish a press statement? Hire more reporter to spread positive propaganda? A cost-benefit analysis would show it is simply cheaper to hire a hitman to take her out. Before you argue with me over ethics and human rights, this isn't the first time a company has did this. Do a google on volkswagon and Glaxo-smith klein cost-benefit analysises and they are equally expedient. So why our society allows large corporations to trade capital for human lives while we condamn a startup for doing the exact same thing?!?
Aeolun 12y ago
Why is everyone so surprised that Uber is tracking information about their users, or that employees have access to that information. I just think it's incredibly naive to think that they wouldn't use it in any way possible.
- at-fates-hands 12y ago
  This. I'm actually more surprised if I find a company who is actively supporting users privacy. In this day and age, you just have to assume a company is tracking everything they can to find out more about you and your preferences. Also, if you don't like being tracked using Uber, make a statement with your wallet and don't use the service - problem solved.
- mfringel 12y ago
  "I'm shocked you're shocked" is just fancy-grade despair.
  - Aeolun 12y ago
    Not at all. I just think that what I've heard they've done with their data so far falls into acceptable levels. As soon as they publicise this data (identifiable) to people other than employees that have access to it anyway, or the person concerned, that's where it becomes an issue. But I haven't heard of any instances of that yet.
DigitalSea 12y ago
I actually agree with the letter for the most part. Yes, Uber are not the only company out there with troves of data that is most likely being abused without anyone noticing, but it is just unfortunate that the spotlight is currently on Uber because of the silly words from a man in a position who should know better than to say such stupid things in public (on or off the record, it doesn't matter). He worked as an advisor to the White House, he should know the importance of holding your tongue. Not to mention all of the lobbyist pressure Uber is experiencing on the business side of things, this is the kind of stuff taxi driver unions and companies/entities threatened by Uber's business model can only dream of getting. They are not doing themselves any favours here. It seems that Uber have well and truly put their foot in it this time over any of the other controversies and scandals that have involved the company. And yet, after all of this, Emil Michael gets to keep his job? Seems to me the only way Uber can start to make amends and repair their broken image here is to make some effort and fire Emil.
- JackFr 12y ago
  > He worked as an advisor to the White House, he should know the importance of holding your tongue. You'd be surprised . . .
dreamdu5t 12y ago
Oh, this bread is so tasty and the clowns are so funny! Thanks Al Franken!
- TillE 12y ago
  That's...not what circus means in that context.
softdev12 12y ago
Wow. I'm interested in seeing how Uber responds to this. I had no idea that Al Franken was now the chairman of the privacy subcommittee. For those not in the United States, Al Franken used to be a popular comedian on the show Saturday Night Live. His biggest hit was this character Stuart Smalley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPc-dPVbow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPc-dPVbow
- blazespin 12y ago
  Outgoing chairman. Democrats lost control of the senate.
closetnerd 12y ago
He's a goddamn hypocritical moron.
jwatte 12y ago
So it's ok for the NSA to snoop on people out of curiosity, but not Uber employees. Some citizens are more equal than others. Gotcha
trhway 12y ago
Uber has graduated into Big League - got attention of a Senate committee, even if of such a minor, "public feel good, no real money/power" one, yet still... As the bumper sticker says "Government doesn't like competition" and the Uber exec clearly voiced intention to venture into typical government territory - illegal usage of private info against the ones whom you don't like.
paul7986 12y ago
These dudes are uber drunk and blinded by their success. Hopefully, such lack of humility doesn't make them end up dead in a bath tub like Whitney Houston. Success went to her head and as she noted in an interview the high she felt after her hit, "I Will Always Love You," could never be matched. Thus she snorted everything up her nose and then some to try and match that high. Eventually, leading her to a downward spiral and dead at 48. Uber to become Whitney Houston possibly...
netcan 12y ago
There's an element of pissing in the wind to the majority of "actions" regarding online privacy. People are worried. No one knows what to do. The best example is the EU/UK "cookie law." It was impractical to begin with, mostly serving to allow legislatures the opportunity to be morally outraged and incensed. Then it devolved into "all sites must have a nagging popup." Realistically, the only way to achieve any of the law's goals was in the browser, not laws dictating what websites can do. This letter is mostly is mostly a criticism of Uber's bureaucracy. Privacy policies, training, etc. Again, not really the place to tackle any of these issues especially if the intent isn't there. Maybe, phones could do a better job of letting users control the data they leak. We don't really know how to deal with data in which the quanta is not sensitive, but aggregation makes it scary. An interesting point here is that the "statement" really sounded like tipsy macho bullshitting, not an actual threat or indication of intent. What the statement does indicate is a violation of the "don't be evil" maxim. Hey, Uber have assholes in high places. They have a lot of power. How many assholes are out there with dangerous access to data?
bambax 12y ago
This story was on top of HN a few moments ago and then seemed to drop like a stone while gaining points: currently at 22nd position with 325 points and 10 hours old, whereas these stories are above it (all as old or older and with less points): pos id points hours 6 8632209 292 15 9 8633707 129 10 12 8633683 204 14 13 8632405 139 14 17 8632363 140 15 18 8633286 58 12 20 8632043 161 16 21 8632018 141 16 What's happening?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 12y ago
  You can't derive story rank from displayed points and times alone. That's on purpose, to make it harder to game HN. The phenomenon you're describing happens routinely, for multiple reasons. One is that we've been experimenting with flushing the front page of older stories periodically when there is a crop of newer ones that, if not for the older ones' inertia, would make the front page. This is related to the work we've been doing to improve the odds for good stories that would otherwise fall through the cracks. We might eventually change the main ranking algorithm to accommodate this, but our approach tends to be to do manual experiments first, software experiments second, and modify the core HN system last.
  - bambax 12y ago
    Many thanks for answering. However, this doesn't seem to explain it > when there is a crop of newer ones that, if not for the older ones' inertia since the stories that were above this one were older stories, some much older (16 hours vs 10): it seems the story wasn't pushed down to make room for newer ones, but to make room for older ones.
    - dang 12y ago
      It isn't that straightforward; I'm afraid that without going into details the explanation is bound to be less than fully satisfying. Also, there are other reasons why stories fall suddenly. My main point is that it's routine. Sample bias comes into play here in that one mostly notices it with stories one was paying attention to.
coryfklein 12y ago
Lesson learned: Don't spy on American citizens, the government hates competition.

353 points by kyledrake 12y ago

bbit 12y ago

Biggest assclown in the senate. Communist.

Note that Franken wrote this as the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law. The committee's mandate / scope: Jurisdiction: (1) Oversight of laws and policies governing the collection, protection, use and dissemination of commercial information by the private sector, including online behavioral advertising, privacy within social networking websites and other online privacy issues; (2) Enforcement and implementation of commercial information privacy laws and policies; (3) Use of technology by the private sector to protect privacy, enhance transparency and encourage innovation; (4) Privacy standards for the collection, retention, use and dissemination of personally identifiable commercial information; and (5) Privacy implications of new or emerging technologies.

tomcam 12y ago

I dislike Al Franken's politics greatly, but I think it's every bit his right to use the bully pulpit this way (I mean this sincerely). If Uber did track a journalist it is reprehensible. But how Uber could benefit from answering this fishing expedition? If I were Uber I'd simply stonewall. They are under no legal compunction to answer, and virtually no answer would help them.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
> If I were Uber I'd simply stonewall. The federal government can make your life extremely difficult, fully funded startup or not.
- smt88 12y ago
  This is an irrelevant point, but it's a stretch to call a 5-year-old company with $2B in revenue a "startup".
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    You're an experiment/startup until you're profitable, at which point you become a real business.
    - smt88 12y ago
      That's absurd. By that definition, Amazon, a 20-year-old company with $74 billion in revenue, is a startup. Profitability has a lot to do with how you spend your money. "Startup" is commonly used to connote a small, new business. The dictionary says it is a "fledgling" business. If Uber's revenue were the GDP of a nation, it would have 40 countries ranked below it. That's not a "fledgling" business, even if it isn't profitable.
    - rtpg 12y ago
      Loads of real businesses are not profitable (and will eventually fall over).
brianpgordon 12y ago
I imagine this is just a courtesy; if they decline to answer, then the committee can issue a subpoena and compel them to. Here's a nice white paper on Congress's subpoena power: http://www.mayerbrown.com/files/Publication/ec1203b2-a787-44ac-8344-5d5fab374ffa/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/11509b8b-df81-4db6-9e89-1d1b16c20856/White-Paper-Congressional-Subpoena.pdf http://www.mayerbrown.com/files/Publication/ec1203b2-a787-44...
- msherry 12y ago
  That was really interesting, thanks. In particular, "The Enforcement Process. Congressional investigations often begin informally, with the interested committee or subcommittee first seeking information on a voluntary basis (i.e., by sending a letter request or asking for an informal interview), rather than by issuing compulsory subpoenas. Although there is no legal obligation that a party comply with such a request, it is typically in the responding party’s best interest to do so"
- andrewpi 12y ago
  Franken will no longer be Chairman of this committee in January when the Democrats are no longer in control of the US Senate.
  - hudibras 12y ago
    Even if this is a Democratic-only concern (which I don't think it is), this would be an easy one for a Senator in the minority to sell to the Chairman as a personal favor. It would just be a subpoena to answer some questions; the Chairman wouldn't be signing up to actually do anything like sponsoring legislation.
- tomcam 12y ago
  Fascinating! So the letter is probably a veiled threat. I hope the Senate has better things to do with its time, though a debate of much stronger privacy laws would be a healthy outcome of this mess.
WildUtah 12y ago
"But how Uber could benefit from answering this fishing expedition?" It's an opportunity to establish publicly that your company won't be engaging in any of the kind of shenanigans that can cost you customers in a competitive industry.

A_COMPUTER 12y ago

So, I completely agree with this letter, but I felt a sense of unease reading it. I realized why. Other companies are as bad or worse about privacy, where are all those letters? I wish there were a lot more of these and wonder if the only reason this one exists is because the blowup with Uber was so visible and so it can be used for political posturing.

w4 12y ago
This was my reaction as well. Yes, Uber's behavior here is reprehensible. But it's also kid stuff compared to what other entities (including the Federal Government itself, whose behavior we never agreed to in a TOS agreement) are engaged in, and I have to wonder what, if any, authority the government could exert in these circumstances (disregarding the appropriateness of the use of said authority, or any potential legislative action). Assuming nothing about Uber's user terms and agreements aren't unlawful, it's almost certainly the case that, as alluded to by Franken's letter, users of Uber have agreed to provide Uber with this sort of access to their usage of the app. So while I agree with the spirit of what Frankin is saying, I'm just left with distaste for what obvious posturing and pandering it is.
- smt88 12y ago
  I see what you're saying, but there are two things that make this more egregious than other (assumed) offenses. First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly. Their hubris needs to be curbed this way. Second, Uber explicitly wanted to go after a member of the press. The press is our shield against all the evil that is done against the public by governments and corporations. We need our journalists to feel absolutely safe in their chosen profession. We may disagree with or even hate some of them, but we have to show people considering such an important career that it won't put them at risk. As far as I know, Google and other companies are using/gathering our information equally legally. They might be doing something nefarious with it, but at least they claim to be responsible and honorable. With the exception of their press releases, Uber seems proud of their ruthlessness and lack of integrity.
  - 12y ago

AndrewKemendo 12y ago

What are the rules here for Uber? Are they compelled to respond or can they just ignore this letter and move on?

waterlesscloud 12y ago
They could ignore it, but then they could be subpoenaed, which they cannot ignore. Completely ignoring it would likely bring quite unpleasant results. Even with the subcommittee chairmanship changing party hands, Senators aren't going to look kindly on a company ignoring a request for information.
nostromo 12y ago
They can ignore the letter. The committee could then issue a subpoena to force them to answer questions. Uber could refuse the subpoena. If they did, Uber could be held in contempt of congress. But, that would require a full vote -- which seems very unlikely. Hilariously, the last person to refuse to testify before congress was an IRS director (Lois Lerner). She was held in contempt... and then nothing happened whatsoever. Congress's real power is to pass laws. Franken won't be doing much of that with the Republicans in control of the Senate. I wouldn't be shaking in my boots if I was Uber...
snowwrestler 12y ago
They're not compelled to respond but they will, because it's good politics to do so, and it's potentially a good chance to carefully craft a message to defend themselves.

leephillips 12y ago

Franken supported the NSA as the surveillance scandal broke: "I can assure you, this is not about spying on the American people." [http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/the-nsa-has-at-least-1-liberal-friend-left-sen-al-franken-20130611 http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/the-nsa-has-at-least...]. I thought it was relevant.

mikeyouse 12y ago
Franken also co-sponsored the original (much better) version of the bill that was voted down yesterday to prevent NSA dragnet surveillance: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050720/tech-firms-push-for-nsa-surveillance-transparency-bills.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050720/tech-firms-push-for-n... http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/1/4790484/can-the-nsa-transparency-bills-make-it-through-congress http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/1/4790484/can-the-nsa-transp... Politics aren't always black and white..
- 001sky 12y ago
  Even Better, yesterday was just a dog and pony show. The 2009 dissent, led by a senior NSA official and embraced by others at the agency, prompted the Obama administration to consider, but ultimately abandon, a plan to stop gathering the records. The secret internal debate has not been previously reported. The Senate on Tuesday rejected an administration proposal that would have curbed the program and left the records in the hands of telephone companies rather than the government. That would be an arrangement similar to the one the administration quietly rejected in 2009.
c9a 12y ago
Here's a relevant op-ed he wrote for CNN near the same time, where he called for more transparency on domestic surveillance. http://www.franken.senate.gov/?p=news&id=2513 http://www.franken.senate.gov/?p=news&id=2513 > Since I came to the Senate, I've been working to fix this. I've supported amendments to the Patriot Act and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that would have required greater public reporting on the use of surveillance authorities and greater disclosures about the legal opinions and safeguards that support them. When those amendments failed, I voted against renewing both of these laws. From the article you posted, you left out a few relevant quotes. > In an early 2006 AlterNet interview before he was officially running for Senate, Franken disparaged the Bush administration's NSA warrantless-surveillance program > At a September 2009 Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the reauthorization of expiring components of the USA Patriot Act, Franken read the Fourth Amendment to the assistant attorney general for national security as a means of questioning the act's "roving wiretap" provision. Franken would also eventually vote against a 2012 reauthorization of the FISA amendments that give the government wide surveillance authority. > Before voting against reauthorizing the FISA amendments last year, Sen. Franken also cosponsored and voted for three amendments that his office says would have "improved the bill on transparency and privacy."

debacle 12y ago

It seems like a lot of things are coming home to roost right now for Uber. As with many things, I think that Uber is the first player in an arena where the second player tends to survive (because they learn from all the first player's mistakes for free, the groundwork is laid, etc). The barrier to entry for an Uber competitor is quite low and trust is the only thing that keeps Uber afloat. If they don't realize that and act accordingly, they could die relatively quickly.

imjk 12y ago
I keep hearing this argument that the barrier to entry is so low for an Uber competitor, but I think people massively underestimate the difficulty of successfully running a system like Uber. Here in Boston where Uber has wide adoption, I just watched a competitor with an impressive team (Hailo) fold up shop as they struggled to gain traction and compete. Where are all these other competitors that are going to come along and easily compete with Uber. Not to mention, there's huge advantages that network affects have in the vertical.
- debacle 12y ago
  The hailo model seems very different from the Uber/Lyft model. More upscale, so I'm guessing a higher barrier to entry for drivers (and it looks like a smaller driver pool).
  - imjk 12y ago
    I find this ironic. When I used Hailo in Boston, it actually only integrated with taxis then moved to private drives. Uber on the other hand, contrary to what you're saying, started with only black cars then shifted to include taxis, and eventually UberX.
kjksf 12y ago
The "low barrier to entry" is repeated on every Uber story and I don't get it. It's a business with a very strong network effects: you need both sides of the market because without drivers, users are not interested and without users drivers are not interested. Uber seems to have a big lead over competition here, is growing like crazy and they raised insane amounts of capital so that they can grow faster than competition. But even without network effects, I don't see that as an easy to replicate business: * you need a great iOS app * you need a great Android app * you need a backed that is both fast and has rock solid 24/7 reliability. it can't be like Twitter in early days * you need to become a payment processor that interjects itself between users and drivers, which I'm sure comes with its own set of legal and logistic challenges * and you need to do it internationally * and you need a massive operation team whose job is to onboard new drivers (recruit, train, supervise) * you need a legal team because every state can have different rules * and you need them also internationally I really don't see any of the above as easy to pull off and to do it all well, that requires both technical and operational excellence that few have.

omgitstom 12y ago

Publicity stunt. When has he ever been worried about privacy in relation to his stance for the NSA? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/al-franken-nsa_n_3423413.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/al-franken-nsa_n_34...

mikeyouse 12y ago
I replied elsewhere as well, but Franken was a co-sponsor for Sen. Leahy's NSA reform bill that was killed yesterday. Even the AEI gives Franken credit for this; http://www.techpolicydaily.com/technology/nsa-surveillance-reform-prospects/ http://www.techpolicydaily.com/technology/nsa-surveillance-r...
- omgitstom 12y ago
  Thanks, I'm a little behind on what he has been up to.

NamTaf 12y ago

I note that many of the questions are around the processes, training, rules, etc. that govern the use of technology developed by Uber. This is important. Systems Engineering teaches the concept of POSTED: People, Organisation, Support, Training, Equipment and Doctrine. When a system is developed, it must give consideration to all of these aspects. Failing to do so means you design an incomplete system. In this case, Uber has developed a piece of Equipment, their God Mode view. Franken's asking about the other pieces of the system, such as the training, support and doctrine and people. These are equally as important to design, document and implement. Failing to give due consideration to these aspects of the system is no different to having an incomplete equipment solution developed. I'm interested to see whether Uber gave due consideration to these aspects of the system. There's something to be said about startups moving fast to develop technology but not necessarily the other aspects of a complete system. Mature systems engineering / software development firms do this day in and day out. Yes, it can lead to slower iteration on the core technology and capabilities, but it is critically important to consider. I suspect it's often a pinch point when start-ups try to scale, for example when a piece of technology then needs to consider user access rights, etc.

deleted 12y ago
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- srs0001 12y ago
  I don't think the condescending tone is necessary—there are actually about ten million links if you spell organization correctly. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22People%2C+Organisation%2C+Support%2C+Training%2C+Equipment+and+Doctrine%22#q=People,+Organization,+Support,+Training,+Equipment+and+Doctrine https://www.google.com/search?q=%22People%2C+Organisation%2C... EDIT: Removed quotes.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - andymcsherry 12y ago
    While the condescending tone is unnecessary, logicallee is right. There are actually zero links, Google just removes the quotes and shows results for that. None of them seem to have all the words together or the acronym. Just random occurrences of words on the page, and it's predominantly military documents.

downandout 12y ago

This is officially the most blown-out-of-proportion story in the history of the Internet. When was the last time the US Senate got involved after you went on a rant at a party? I'm certain that Sarah Lacy is enjoying both the attention and the money from pageviews, but this is getting ridiculous.

smrtinsert 12y ago
As soon as someone jokes at about the potential of putting someones family in harms way, it is no longer a joke. I couldn't stand SL at TC but I'm 100% behind on her this one.
- viscanti 12y ago
  Where were the allegations of putting someone's family in harms way? The initial reports read like it was a hypothetical solution to show bias in tech journalism. SL happens to work at a blog who was funded by a competitor of Uber. Real journalists give full notice about potential conflicts of interest (especially when they write flimsy attack articles). Exposing that unacknowledged conflict of interest doesn't seem like it puts someone's family in harms way. All it would do is show clear bias in a clearly biased attack article.
zecho 12y ago
Overstatements are hilarious no matter where they come from. For example: "When was the last time the US Senate got involved after you went on a rant at a party?" I am not a SVP of a company valued in the billions working in a highly regulated industry. I also didn't do the rant at a private "party" designed to improve relations with prominent members of the media that covers my particular industry. Also, the Senate sends letters on all sorts of mundane matters. That is not the issue of proportion here. The issue is the media giving undue emphasis to stories involving the media.
thinkling 12y ago
I get that people sometimes say stupid things after two or three glasses of wine. And I get that blabbing about something is different from actually doing it. But this was egregiously beyond the boundaries of basic ethics and societal values, and a company executive should know better. So you may think it's overblown, but I'd like Uber to feel that this is not OK, so it got me to finally install the Lyft app which I'll be giving a try.

mxpxrocks10 12y ago

best part of the letter - two words I thought I'd never hear together: "BuzzFeed reported"

iaw 12y ago
In a letter from the head of a senate subcommittee no less.

marincounty 12y ago

Yes--the Boober made some asinine statements. Let him dig his way out of his utter foolishness. Now to Uber. I was shocked what they expect you to buy and drive in order to become a Uber Driver. Nothing less than a 2008 vechicle? And the list of acceptabe cars? After insurance it just dosen't add up--unless your sleeping in you car, or your in a brand spanking new market. In all reality, maybe he said these things just to get the free advertising? It's too bad it's come to this? That said, is there any freeware uber/Lyft type code floating around? Just curious?

jemacniddle 12y ago
Do you have a link to the original 'boober' transcript? Haven't been able to find one, context is everything so I'd rather have the full backstory before making any assumptions.
- aaronbrethorst 12y ago
  It took about 30 seconds of Googling to turn up a link to the GQ interview where this was originally reported. http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201403/uber-cab-confessions?currentPage=1&printable=true http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201403/uber-cab-c...
  - jemacniddle 12y ago
    "Not to make assumptions, but Kalanick probably wasn't the first kid in his class to lose his virginity. But the way he talks now—which is large—he's surely making up for lost time. When I tease him about his skyrocketing desirability, he deflects with a wisecrack about women on demand: “Yeah, we call that Boob-er.”" Yeah seems more like an insult than a transcript to a conversation.

johnsmith32 12y ago

It seems that most are commenting on why Uber executive shouldn't be doing this. But none has viewed this from Uber's perspective. If your startup was being threatened by a brown-nosing bonus-loving trigger-happy reporter, what are you going to do? Publish a press statement? Hire more reporter to spread positive propaganda? A cost-benefit analysis would show it is simply cheaper to hire a hitman to take her out. Before you argue with me over ethics and human rights, this isn't the first time a company has did this. Do a google on volkswagon and Glaxo-smith klein cost-benefit analysises and they are equally expedient. So why our society allows large corporations to trade capital for human lives while we condamn a startup for doing the exact same thing?!?

Aeolun 12y ago

Why is everyone so surprised that Uber is tracking information about their users, or that employees have access to that information. I just think it's incredibly naive to think that they wouldn't use it in any way possible.

at-fates-hands 12y ago
This. I'm actually more surprised if I find a company who is actively supporting users privacy. In this day and age, you just have to assume a company is tracking everything they can to find out more about you and your preferences. Also, if you don't like being tracked using Uber, make a statement with your wallet and don't use the service - problem solved.
mfringel 12y ago
"I'm shocked you're shocked" is just fancy-grade despair.
- Aeolun 12y ago
  Not at all. I just think that what I've heard they've done with their data so far falls into acceptable levels. As soon as they publicise this data (identifiable) to people other than employees that have access to it anyway, or the person concerned, that's where it becomes an issue. But I haven't heard of any instances of that yet.

DigitalSea 12y ago

I actually agree with the letter for the most part. Yes, Uber are not the only company out there with troves of data that is most likely being abused without anyone noticing, but it is just unfortunate that the spotlight is currently on Uber because of the silly words from a man in a position who should know better than to say such stupid things in public (on or off the record, it doesn't matter). He worked as an advisor to the White House, he should know the importance of holding your tongue. Not to mention all of the lobbyist pressure Uber is experiencing on the business side of things, this is the kind of stuff taxi driver unions and companies/entities threatened by Uber's business model can only dream of getting. They are not doing themselves any favours here. It seems that Uber have well and truly put their foot in it this time over any of the other controversies and scandals that have involved the company. And yet, after all of this, Emil Michael gets to keep his job? Seems to me the only way Uber can start to make amends and repair their broken image here is to make some effort and fire Emil.

JackFr 12y ago
> He worked as an advisor to the White House, he should know the importance of holding your tongue. You'd be surprised . . .

dreamdu5t 12y ago

Oh, this bread is so tasty and the clowns are so funny! Thanks Al Franken!

TillE 12y ago
That's...not what circus means in that context.

softdev12 12y ago

Wow. I'm interested in seeing how Uber responds to this. I had no idea that Al Franken was now the chairman of the privacy subcommittee. For those not in the United States, Al Franken used to be a popular comedian on the show Saturday Night Live. His biggest hit was this character Stuart Smalley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPc-dPVbow https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPc-dPVbow

blazespin 12y ago
Outgoing chairman. Democrats lost control of the senate.

closetnerd 12y ago

He's a goddamn hypocritical moron.

jwatte 12y ago

So it's ok for the NSA to snoop on people out of curiosity, but not Uber employees. Some citizens are more equal than others. Gotcha

trhway 12y ago

Uber has graduated into Big League - got attention of a Senate committee, even if of such a minor, "public feel good, no real money/power" one, yet still... As the bumper sticker says "Government doesn't like competition" and the Uber exec clearly voiced intention to venture into typical government territory - illegal usage of private info against the ones whom you don't like.

paul7986 12y ago

These dudes are uber drunk and blinded by their success. Hopefully, such lack of humility doesn't make them end up dead in a bath tub like Whitney Houston. Success went to her head and as she noted in an interview the high she felt after her hit, "I Will Always Love You," could never be matched. Thus she snorted everything up her nose and then some to try and match that high. Eventually, leading her to a downward spiral and dead at 48. Uber to become Whitney Houston possibly...

netcan 12y ago

There's an element of pissing in the wind to the majority of "actions" regarding online privacy. People are worried. No one knows what to do. The best example is the EU/UK "cookie law." It was impractical to begin with, mostly serving to allow legislatures the opportunity to be morally outraged and incensed. Then it devolved into "all sites must have a nagging popup." Realistically, the only way to achieve any of the law's goals was in the browser, not laws dictating what websites can do. This letter is mostly is mostly a criticism of Uber's bureaucracy. Privacy policies, training, etc. Again, not really the place to tackle any of these issues especially if the intent isn't there. Maybe, phones could do a better job of letting users control the data they leak. We don't really know how to deal with data in which the quanta is not sensitive, but aggregation makes it scary. An interesting point here is that the "statement" really sounded like tipsy macho bullshitting, not an actual threat or indication of intent. What the statement does indicate is a violation of the "don't be evil" maxim. Hey, Uber have assholes in high places. They have a lot of power. How many assholes are out there with dangerous access to data?

bambax 12y ago

This story was on top of HN a few moments ago and then seemed to drop like a stone while gaining points: currently at 22nd position with 325 points and 10 hours old, whereas these stories are above it (all as old or older and with less points): pos id points hours 6 8632209 292 15 9 8633707 129 10 12 8633683 204 14 13 8632405 139 14 17 8632363 140 15 18 8633286 58 12 20 8632043 161 16 21 8632018 141 16 What's happening?

deleted 12y ago
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dang 12y ago
You can't derive story rank from displayed points and times alone. That's on purpose, to make it harder to game HN. The phenomenon you're describing happens routinely, for multiple reasons. One is that we've been experimenting with flushing the front page of older stories periodically when there is a crop of newer ones that, if not for the older ones' inertia, would make the front page. This is related to the work we've been doing to improve the odds for good stories that would otherwise fall through the cracks. We might eventually change the main ranking algorithm to accommodate this, but our approach tends to be to do manual experiments first, software experiments second, and modify the core HN system last.
- bambax 12y ago
  Many thanks for answering. However, this doesn't seem to explain it > when there is a crop of newer ones that, if not for the older ones' inertia since the stories that were above this one were older stories, some much older (16 hours vs 10): it seems the story wasn't pushed down to make room for newer ones, but to make room for older ones.
  - dang 12y ago
    It isn't that straightforward; I'm afraid that without going into details the explanation is bound to be less than fully satisfying. Also, there are other reasons why stories fall suddenly. My main point is that it's routine. Sample bias comes into play here in that one mostly notices it with stories one was paying attention to.

coryfklein 12y ago

Lesson learned: Don't spy on American citizens, the government hates competition.