10 ms·

Electrical brain stimulation beats caffeine and the effect lasts longer

134 points by Libertatea 12y ago

debacle 12y ago
I've been really interested in tdcs for a long time, simply out of curiosities' sake, but the tdcs subreddit is private and there aren't many good resources for people who aren't sure they want to commmit to the heavier stuff.
- rms 12y ago
  It's open. http://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS http://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
the_cat_kittles 12y ago
“This type of image analysis task is not well suited to automation. There’s no computer algorithm that can go in and autoselect targets for you, it’s a human endeavour. If we can help people pay attention for long periods of times, that‘s really important,” at the very least, they should save the images and targets to use as training data, since that's being generated manually already. then they could see how predictive of a model could be generated, instead of just guessing that it would be bad.
- domdip 12y ago
  They do. tDCS isn't exactly the first thing that's been attempted here.
Xcelerate 12y ago
Something about electrical brain stimulation freaks me out. That, along with ECT (electroconvulsive therapy). I suppose it's hypocritical of me to not fear substances such as caffeine, alcohol, or antidepressants, but the idea of sending current through an organ as sensitive as the brain makes me wary.
- debacle 12y ago
  Have you ever played with any electronics to the extent that you've shocked yourself? It's actually pretty innocuous for the most part. TDCS isn't using the kind of current that comes out of a wall outlet.
  - irremediable 12y ago
    To be fair, when you shock yourself, I don't imagine you tend to pass current near your brain.
  - etiam 12y ago
    For one thing, in the case of tDCS one is actively trying to penetrate the insulating protection of the skin. For another, nervous systems change in response to what happens to them, particularly when what happens is more extreme than the everyday state of affairs. I don't dispute anything of what you're saying in itself, but if you mean to imply that it's hard to go wrong with direct current stimulation to the brain because the currents are much smaller than what's needed to drive household appliances, I'm highly skeptical of that claim.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - debacle 12y ago
      You can kill yourself with a 9 volt battery. There's no reason not to be skeptical. And if you aren't careful with tdcs, you can burn yourself pretty badly.
      - backlava 12y ago
        How do you do that? Eat it?
        nerfhammer 12y ago
        Put a big capacitor on it and you can make a taser
astrodust 12y ago
Interestingly, science fiction author Larry Niven called it decades ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction)
- gwern 12y ago
  tDCS is no more wireheading than electroshock therapy for depression is wireheading.
devindotcom 12y ago
Doesn't like 30 seconds of exercise beat caffeine as well? Seems like if you just want a jolt of energy and cognitive capacity, coffee is a bad choice. It is, on the other hand, delicious.
- lettergram 12y ago
  I believe both can work well. Caffeine works by more or less blocking sleep (by blocking bonding sites), increasing blood pressure, etc. Exercise works by increasing blood flow, releasing adrenaline, etc. Since they work in various ways, both can work well together.
- dreamweapon 12y ago
  Doesn't like 30 seconds of exercise beat caffeine as well? Oh, definitely. As with getting an extra 45-60 min of sleep (or at least quieter sleep, without drinking excess alcohol beforehand) for a great many people. That's kind of the whole point about what's wrong with the results claimed in the article.
- thenomad 12y ago
  Quite. If coffee roasteries could develop a decaffination process that would preserve the taste of the individual beans 100% (or even 90%), I'd drink decaf exclusively. I don't actually want the bloody stimulant effects. I just want the tasty brown drink.
kleer001 12y ago
Want!
ericcumbee 12y ago
I wonder if this might have future applications as a treatment for Attention Deficit Spectrum Disorders. I found this line particularly interesting “I think the reason we’re getting these long-term effects is they are making some longer-lasting changes to the neural connections,”
dreamweapon 12y ago
Researchers in the US have used electrical brain stimulation to boost the vigilance of sleep-deprived military personnel working on an airforce base. Knowing the U.S. military, rather than addressing the root cause of the issue (namely: the totally senseless cult of sleep deprivation in the armed forces -- despite the ample research showing the mental and physical damage it causes), they'll start offering, what shall we call them? -- special "performance-enhancing" helmets. First on an optional basis, but then on a not-so-optional basis -- to administer optimally measured voltage, at optimally timed occasions. From there it's a short hop to having these helmets (by then no longer optional at all) administer other kinds of signals, directly to the soldier's brains: to relay orders, identify targets... and to tell them when to pull the trigger.
- danpat 12y ago
  From there it's a short hop to having these helmets (by then no longer optional at all) administer other kinds of signals, directly to the soldier's brains: to relay orders, identify targets... and to tell them when to pull the trigger. Don't radios with earpieces already do that?
  - dreamweapon 12y ago
    Transmit directly into the brain? No.
    - criley2 12y ago
      But, the process of breaking down a citizen and building a solider could easily be described as developing a new operating system for the soldier, one which is designed to utilize the radio/hearing/brain pathway to achieve an identical end to your electrical end. With "electronic helmet brain control", boot camp is irrelevant, but bootcamp and culture is itself an archaic "brain control", which serves an identical purpose already.
- ed 12y ago
  Uh – you're arguing tDCS is a form of mind control?
maw 12y ago
A shocking result. Hook me up!
oblique63 12y ago
I've been wondering, has there been any research directly comparing the effects of tDCS with modafinil and/or any other nootropics like piracetam?
- amckenna 12y ago
  I was interested in the same question but there hasn't been any research as far as I have found. There are anecdotal accounts in various tDCS communities such as /r/tdcs
  - lincolnpark 12y ago
    There's a guy named Sterling Cooper who is doing some interesting work on tDCS. http://cogtech.net/blog/2014/07/interview-with-sterling-cooley/ http://cogtech.net/blog/2014/07/interview-with-sterling-cool...
nlh 12y ago
"There’s no computer algorithm that can..." "Yet", my friends, "yet". I love reading quotes like that because it speaks to pure opportunity. Someone will eventually figure out an algorithmic solution to X, and that should remind us all how wrong the "all the good ideas have been done" line of thinking really is.
- georgemcbay 12y ago
  What you're saying is true, but to be fair this really is just about a worst case scenario for automated image recognition because it is unclear what is being looked for but "you'll know it when you see it". Solving this in a way that doesn't generate an enormous amount of false positives requires something very close to a general purpose AI.
  - Otik 12y ago
    Uh, why does it look like this comment thread got lost and ended up on the wrong article?
    - georgemcbay 12y ago
      I'm going to guess that it looks like that because you only read the headline and not the article?
amckenna 12y ago
I wish they would release the placement they used for the testing. I would be interested in trying this out at home with my tDCS device. My guess is they are using one of the following placements: Accelerated Learning (DARPA) F10/Left Arm - http://tdcsplacements.com/placements/accelerated-learning/ http://tdcsplacements.com/placements/accelerated-learning/ "Savant Learning" (Chi & Snider (2011)) T4/T3 - https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/comments/2e7idx/simple_montage_list_with_electrode_placement_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/comments/2e7idx/simple_montage...
- aantix 12y ago
  Where did you purchase your device? Or did you build it?
  - amckenna 12y ago
    I purchased it. I am hesitant to recommend a particular device because I am not a medical professional and there are inherent risks involved in using any of the devices. I would encourage you to check out www.reddit.com/r/tdcs and do some research yourself. In their FAQ they list several devices that you can start looking at. Sorry, I know that isn't a satisfying answer but it's the only one I am comfortable with.
- gwern 12y ago
  Fulltext: https://pdf.yt/d/mdyfCUYD6xQyYhal https://pdf.yt/d/mdyfCUYD6xQyYhal / https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1afsa8aeawlzmw/2014-mcintire.pdf?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1afsa8aeawlzmw/2014-mcintire.pdf?... / http://lib.gen.in/next/MTAuMTAxNi9qLmJycy4yMDE0LjA0LjAwOA==/10.1016@j.brs.2014.04.008.pdf http://lib.gen.in/next/MTAuMTAxNi9qLmJycy4yMDE0LjA0LjAwOA==/... Placement isn't that interesting: F3->bicep (pg2).
  - amckenna 12y ago
    Thank you for the links Gwern! You're right, the placement is the same as previous studies. Though from what I remember those were testing for the alleviation of depression, so it's nice to see there are other positive effects with that placement.
hansjorg 12y ago
NPR Radiolab had a story on this recently [1] where amongst other things, a reporter visits a US military lab and tries sniper training with and without electrical brain stimulation. Pretty interesting. 1: http://www.radiolab.org/story/9-volt-nirvana/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/9-volt-nirvana/
Jonovono 12y ago
Has anyone tried the Focus device? http://www.foc.us/ http://www.foc.us/ Curious to hear any feedback.
- JDLeadam 12y ago
  Has a lot of safety issues that became apparent with their first model. Hopefully they've fixed it with this one. Otherwise there are other devices on the market that are just as good that I would reccomend. http://www.trans-cranial.com/ http://www.trans-cranial.com/ http://thebrainstimulator.net/ http://thebrainstimulator.net/ or even http://www.apexdevice.net/ http://www.apexdevice.net/
dia80 12y ago
One of the related articles at the bottom references the paper "Transcranial stimulation of the developing brain: a plea for extreme caution" [1] I would be quite interested in give tDcs a go but the tail risk of making some permanent brain change freaks me out. [1] http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00600/full http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00...
neals 12y ago
I've just switched from coffee to caffeine pills. This sounds like something I need.
JDLeadam 12y ago
www.thebrainstimulator.net Been in business less than a year. Approaching 1/2 mill in sales.

134 points by Libertatea 12y ago

I've been really interested in tdcs for a long time, simply out of curiosities' sake, but the tdcs subreddit is private and there aren't many good resources for people who aren't sure they want to commmit to the heavier stuff.

rms 12y ago
It's open. http://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS http://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

the_cat_kittles 12y ago

“This type of image analysis task is not well suited to automation. There’s no computer algorithm that can go in and autoselect targets for you, it’s a human endeavour. If we can help people pay attention for long periods of times, that‘s really important,” at the very least, they should save the images and targets to use as training data, since that's being generated manually already. then they could see how predictive of a model could be generated, instead of just guessing that it would be bad.

domdip 12y ago
They do. tDCS isn't exactly the first thing that's been attempted here.

Xcelerate 12y ago

Something about electrical brain stimulation freaks me out. That, along with ECT (electroconvulsive therapy). I suppose it's hypocritical of me to not fear substances such as caffeine, alcohol, or antidepressants, but the idea of sending current through an organ as sensitive as the brain makes me wary.

debacle 12y ago
Have you ever played with any electronics to the extent that you've shocked yourself? It's actually pretty innocuous for the most part. TDCS isn't using the kind of current that comes out of a wall outlet.
- irremediable 12y ago
  To be fair, when you shock yourself, I don't imagine you tend to pass current near your brain.
- etiam 12y ago
  For one thing, in the case of tDCS one is actively trying to penetrate the insulating protection of the skin. For another, nervous systems change in response to what happens to them, particularly when what happens is more extreme than the everyday state of affairs. I don't dispute anything of what you're saying in itself, but if you mean to imply that it's hard to go wrong with direct current stimulation to the brain because the currents are much smaller than what's needed to drive household appliances, I'm highly skeptical of that claim.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - debacle 12y ago
    You can kill yourself with a 9 volt battery. There's no reason not to be skeptical. And if you aren't careful with tdcs, you can burn yourself pretty badly.
    - backlava 12y ago
      How do you do that? Eat it?
      - nerfhammer 12y ago
        Put a big capacitor on it and you can make a taser

astrodust 12y ago

Interestingly, science fiction author Larry Niven called it decades ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction)

gwern 12y ago
tDCS is no more wireheading than electroshock therapy for depression is wireheading.

devindotcom 12y ago

Doesn't like 30 seconds of exercise beat caffeine as well? Seems like if you just want a jolt of energy and cognitive capacity, coffee is a bad choice. It is, on the other hand, delicious.

lettergram 12y ago
I believe both can work well. Caffeine works by more or less blocking sleep (by blocking bonding sites), increasing blood pressure, etc. Exercise works by increasing blood flow, releasing adrenaline, etc. Since they work in various ways, both can work well together.
dreamweapon 12y ago
Doesn't like 30 seconds of exercise beat caffeine as well? Oh, definitely. As with getting an extra 45-60 min of sleep (or at least quieter sleep, without drinking excess alcohol beforehand) for a great many people. That's kind of the whole point about what's wrong with the results claimed in the article.
thenomad 12y ago
Quite. If coffee roasteries could develop a decaffination process that would preserve the taste of the individual beans 100% (or even 90%), I'd drink decaf exclusively. I don't actually want the bloody stimulant effects. I just want the tasty brown drink.

kleer001 12y ago

Want!

ericcumbee 12y ago

I wonder if this might have future applications as a treatment for Attention Deficit Spectrum Disorders. I found this line particularly interesting “I think the reason we’re getting these long-term effects is they are making some longer-lasting changes to the neural connections,”

dreamweapon 12y ago

Researchers in the US have used electrical brain stimulation to boost the vigilance of sleep-deprived military personnel working on an airforce base. Knowing the U.S. military, rather than addressing the root cause of the issue (namely: the totally senseless cult of sleep deprivation in the armed forces -- despite the ample research showing the mental and physical damage it causes), they'll start offering, what shall we call them? -- special "performance-enhancing" helmets. First on an optional basis, but then on a not-so-optional basis -- to administer optimally measured voltage, at optimally timed occasions. From there it's a short hop to having these helmets (by then no longer optional at all) administer other kinds of signals, directly to the soldier's brains: to relay orders, identify targets... and to tell them when to pull the trigger.

danpat 12y ago
From there it's a short hop to having these helmets (by then no longer optional at all) administer other kinds of signals, directly to the soldier's brains: to relay orders, identify targets... and to tell them when to pull the trigger. Don't radios with earpieces already do that?
- dreamweapon 12y ago
  Transmit directly into the brain? No.
  - criley2 12y ago
    But, the process of breaking down a citizen and building a solider could easily be described as developing a new operating system for the soldier, one which is designed to utilize the radio/hearing/brain pathway to achieve an identical end to your electrical end. With "electronic helmet brain control", boot camp is irrelevant, but bootcamp and culture is itself an archaic "brain control", which serves an identical purpose already.
ed 12y ago
Uh – you're arguing tDCS is a form of mind control?

maw 12y ago

A shocking result. Hook me up!

oblique63 12y ago

I've been wondering, has there been any research directly comparing the effects of tDCS with modafinil and/or any other nootropics like piracetam?

amckenna 12y ago
I was interested in the same question but there hasn't been any research as far as I have found. There are anecdotal accounts in various tDCS communities such as /r/tdcs
- lincolnpark 12y ago
  There's a guy named Sterling Cooper who is doing some interesting work on tDCS. http://cogtech.net/blog/2014/07/interview-with-sterling-cooley/ http://cogtech.net/blog/2014/07/interview-with-sterling-cool...

nlh 12y ago

"There’s no computer algorithm that can..." "Yet", my friends, "yet". I love reading quotes like that because it speaks to pure opportunity. Someone will eventually figure out an algorithmic solution to X, and that should remind us all how wrong the "all the good ideas have been done" line of thinking really is.

georgemcbay 12y ago
What you're saying is true, but to be fair this really is just about a worst case scenario for automated image recognition because it is unclear what is being looked for but "you'll know it when you see it". Solving this in a way that doesn't generate an enormous amount of false positives requires something very close to a general purpose AI.
- Otik 12y ago
  Uh, why does it look like this comment thread got lost and ended up on the wrong article?
  - georgemcbay 12y ago
    I'm going to guess that it looks like that because you only read the headline and not the article?

amckenna 12y ago

I wish they would release the placement they used for the testing. I would be interested in trying this out at home with my tDCS device. My guess is they are using one of the following placements: Accelerated Learning (DARPA) F10/Left Arm - http://tdcsplacements.com/placements/accelerated-learning/ http://tdcsplacements.com/placements/accelerated-learning/ "Savant Learning" (Chi & Snider (2011)) T4/T3 - https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/comments/2e7idx/simple_montage_list_with_electrode_placement_and/ https://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS/comments/2e7idx/simple_montage...

aantix 12y ago
Where did you purchase your device? Or did you build it?
- amckenna 12y ago
  I purchased it. I am hesitant to recommend a particular device because I am not a medical professional and there are inherent risks involved in using any of the devices. I would encourage you to check out www.reddit.com/r/tdcs and do some research yourself. In their FAQ they list several devices that you can start looking at. Sorry, I know that isn't a satisfying answer but it's the only one I am comfortable with.
gwern 12y ago
Fulltext: https://pdf.yt/d/mdyfCUYD6xQyYhal https://pdf.yt/d/mdyfCUYD6xQyYhal / https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1afsa8aeawlzmw/2014-mcintire.pdf?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/e1afsa8aeawlzmw/2014-mcintire.pdf?... / http://lib.gen.in/next/MTAuMTAxNi9qLmJycy4yMDE0LjA0LjAwOA==/10.1016@j.brs.2014.04.008.pdf http://lib.gen.in/next/MTAuMTAxNi9qLmJycy4yMDE0LjA0LjAwOA==/... Placement isn't that interesting: F3->bicep (pg2).
- amckenna 12y ago
  Thank you for the links Gwern! You're right, the placement is the same as previous studies. Though from what I remember those were testing for the alleviation of depression, so it's nice to see there are other positive effects with that placement.

hansjorg 12y ago

NPR Radiolab had a story on this recently [1] where amongst other things, a reporter visits a US military lab and tries sniper training with and without electrical brain stimulation. Pretty interesting. 1: http://www.radiolab.org/story/9-volt-nirvana/ http://www.radiolab.org/story/9-volt-nirvana/

Jonovono 12y ago

Has anyone tried the Focus device? http://www.foc.us/ http://www.foc.us/ Curious to hear any feedback.

JDLeadam 12y ago
Has a lot of safety issues that became apparent with their first model. Hopefully they've fixed it with this one. Otherwise there are other devices on the market that are just as good that I would reccomend. http://www.trans-cranial.com/ http://www.trans-cranial.com/ http://thebrainstimulator.net/ http://thebrainstimulator.net/ or even http://www.apexdevice.net/ http://www.apexdevice.net/

dia80 12y ago

One of the related articles at the bottom references the paper "Transcranial stimulation of the developing brain: a plea for extreme caution" [1] I would be quite interested in give tDcs a go but the tail risk of making some permanent brain change freaks me out. [1] http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00600/full http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00...

neals 12y ago

I've just switched from coffee to caffeine pills. This sounds like something I need.

JDLeadam 12y ago

www.thebrainstimulator.net Been in business less than a year. Approaching 1/2 mill in sales.