12 ms·

Idea that intestinal bacteria affect mental health gains ground

187 points by whyenot 12y ago

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
nashequilibrium 12y ago
Anybody here has done first hand experiments on themselves care to comment?
- kyberias 12y ago
  Why would a single experiment on one individual have any interest?
  - nhoven 12y ago
    Because self-experimentation is an excellent source of data. Obviously we'd prefer a series of double-blind, controlled experiments whose results have been rigorously replicated, but that doesn't mean that less rigorous experiments have no value.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      > Because self-experimentation is an excellent source of data. No it isn't. People quote Barry Marshall[1] all the time but most people don't perform their self-experimentation with any kind of rigour. How many people have access to endoscopy to take before / after tests? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Marshall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Marshall
      - beagle3 12y ago
        > No it isn't. Self experimentation could be an excellent source of data. Quite a few "interesting" things cannot effectively be rigorously tested, either because we have no effective placebo, or because they are inhumane (e.g., the vast majority of so-called "rigorous" diet studies are actually based on self-reporting and willful compliance, because you can't keep people in controlled a lab for more than a few weeks). Also, as Ionnadis pointed out, quite a bit of (supposedly rigourous) published research is simply wrong. So for a lot of things, we have to do with "amateur hour" experiments, whether conducted in a university lab and published in Nature, or conducted at home and published in a blog. Self-experimentation can easily disprove a "general truth" but cannot really support one due to lack of controls ( and do recall the scientific method is statement about disproving things, not about proving them) However, if you do stumble on a local version of a "general truth", you can then look for the n->inf version more rigorously. You can look at e.g. the late Seth Roberts for examples; the ideas are interesting, some of his successes have been replicated by enough people; Among these - correlation between Vitamin D intake time and sleep quality (see gwern for a rigorous test of that experiment, that confirms it for n=|{gwern}|=1, and many other less rigorous; Rigorous correlation among flax seed (supposedly omega 3) intake, butter, bacon and response time for n=|{seth}|=1, which I have not published but have verified rigorously for n=|me|=1 about flax seed. And there are a few others. I think some of his ideas are crazy but almost all are interesting. (Self-reported) success on his Shangri-La diet is ~80%, which is very high for a diet, but obviously not a general truth since it is not 100%. It worked for me once, but not the 2nd time a couple of years later despite following exactly the same protocol. I'd say self-experimentation is much less rigorous, but way more time-and-captial efficient way of arriving at results.
        mrfusion 12y ago
        I think most of our progress in life is self-experimentation in one sort or another. We try things and do what works and stop doing what doesn't. By the way, did anyone find out what happened to Seth?
        beagle3 12y ago
        According to http://blog.sethroberts.net/2014/05/10/cause-of-death/ http://blog.sethroberts.net/2014/05/10/cause-of-death/ , his family should be getting the report around now, and they mentioned the intend to share the details.
  - brador 12y ago
    Because it gives you ideas for new things to try. Especially useful when all known solutions have failed.
- poober 12y ago
  You might be interested in our startup. Our pitch is we are the Uber of poo. Steaming hot delivery to your doorstep, custom crowdsourced blend.
- dlss 12y ago
  I'm the CEO of GeneralBiotics.com, we sell a probiotic created using Human Microbiome Project datasets (our CTO did his postdoctoral work there). The product is not a DIY FMT, but serves a similar function (restore missing aggregate metabolic pathways). Personally, from generation 1 of our product onwards I've felt considerably less stressed, more upbeat/happy, and haven't had diarrhea (I have IBS-D, so that's a huge one for me personally). Our pilot study has offered us preliminary confirmation of this, so we're paying for a 200 person placebo-controlled follow up study. Early versions did have hiccups, but IMO gas is FAR preferable to diarrhea. I don't personally think DIY is worth the risk, as there are a lot of things you'd absolutely need to screen for if you're considering that route (see http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776501_4 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776501_4 for a minimal list). I think you should also screen for mental disorders, stress disorders, mood disorders, etc. Basically anything known to be correlated with the microbiome at minimum. Assuming you've screened for those things (which is to say basically a pro-level FMT), I think it's basically safe -- there are a lot of FMT procedures performed every year with minimal side effects. #include disclaimer: obviously not medical advice, etc, etc
  - lunarcave 12y ago
    Very Interesting. I'd be willing to give a go, but I don't think you ship to my country.
    - dlss 12y ago
      Alas. Shipping microbes across borders is a tricky business. It takes about 30 days to get a decision one way or another, we are prioritizing lawyer time using the wait list: http://eepurl.com/5qS9z http://eepurl.com/5qS9z
      - deskamess 12y ago
        I signed up and curious how high Canada is on the list... I see a lot of pro/pre biotic products in the store so it is certainly not banned. Another question... what is your take on the fecal transplant process and do you ever think it could end up in a "pill format"? Are you aware of any such pills in the North American market?
- ganzuul 12y ago
  Reducing my intake of short carbohydrates in combination with changing to a gluten-free diet has vastly improved my mental health and emotional stability. ED: Can't reply because of rate-limiting. So; It breaks down a bit differently. Foods which are gluten-free are quite different in several ways. There are a lot of unhealthy things I avoid while also avoiding gluten. I think that short carbs influence the dopaminergic system which intestinal health influences the serotonergic system. Both are feel-good hormones. I suffer from chronic depression which seems to mean permanently reduced levels of one or both of these. I'm an 80s kid, meaning my formative years happened during a time which was crazy on many levels. I don't have diabetes, fortunately. Aside from chronic depression I'm in very good health. Take this as you will.
  - r00fus 12y ago
    Which do you think had the bigger impact?
  - stef25 12y ago
    Are you coeliac or you just think that gluten is bad for you?
    - Mc_Big_G 12y ago
      I know it's popular to make fun of people who don't eat gluten and don't have celiac disease and I'm the first one to correct people who says gluten is "bad for you", however this is not the full story. There are people who are "gluten sensitive" and my wife is one of them. More specifically, she is only sensitive to gluten in American products. She cannot eat anything with gluten here in the US without immediately having very painful stomach cramps and bloating. We spend about one month per year in Spain, where she is from, and she eats all the bread and gluten that she wants with absolutely no problems. So, all I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't be quick to judge people who don't eat gluten and don't have celiac, unless they're just doing it because they heard it was bad.
      - Stefan-H 12y ago
        "only sensitive to gluten in American products" I have a hard time believing that the nationality of the gluten has anything to do with her reactions. Perhaps you are confusing correlation with causation? I think the more likely cause of her reactions is something else in the products in the US that are causing her reactions. An interesting study for you to take a look at as well: http://www.businessinsider.com/gluten-sensitivity-and-study-replication-2014-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/gluten-sensitivity-and-study-...
- ericson578 12y ago
  I've been doing a strict ketogenic diet for almost six months. Very low carb from veggies mostly, 25% of my diet is protein, and about %70 healthy fats. My allergies were terrible before, now they are barely there and manageable taking the occasional zyrtec. My gastrointestinal issues are mostly gone, although I've read that could be from a reduction in inflammation in the gut lining, but might be related to changes in my gut microbes too. Hard to tell. My energy levels are more sustained and even (no more crashes), and my moods are generally better. Who knows if my changing gut flora is the reason, it might be. I know not feeding those little buggers tons of sugar really changes things up! :) Or it's all placebo and I'm just healthier in general. Either way I'm feeling better. I'm sure science will eventually figure out if the link is causal or not, but in the meantime don't let my anecdotal story sway you too much. edit: oops I forgot to mention I also take a probiotic every now and then. Align is the name, I like it but I don't take probiotics regularly.
jhulla 12y ago
It seems there are people who are DIY fecal transplants in the hopes of addressing various maladies and illnesses. https://www.google.com/search?q=diy+fecal+transplants https://www.google.com/search?q=diy+fecal+transplants
- 1qaz2wsx3edc 12y ago
  There are some links/searches on the internet I don't want to click. This is one of them. I have no problem with others looking at this, I think it's probably great, but for me this is where I nope out.
  - josefresco 12y ago
    While you have been down voted for expressing your "nope" opinion. I think a proper way to handle this would be to add some sort of warning/tag before posting links to content which may shock/offend etc.
    - pessimizer 12y ago
      It's a google search. Warning people that searching for 'fecal' on google might return discussions of feces is unnecessary in my opinion.
- Sir_Vival 12y ago
  I did this for IBS. It helped me out tremendously - it didn't cure me, but it allowed me to go on vacation at a time when I was hitting up the bathroom 10 times a day. Funny side note - my poop has no smell. For quite a while after the transplant, mine smelled like the donor's. It proved that it took hold, for a month or two at least. Now I take Cholestyramine every day, and that has helped even more.
hliyan 12y ago
More importantly, article also mentions that Caesarean births, due to non-exposure to maternal vaginal microbes, might result in lifelong mental health changes.
- walterbell 12y ago
  > "when a lab makes a mouse by in vitro fertilization, the animal will pick up microbes from its surrogate mother, which might differ greatly from those of its genetic mother" Can the microbes be transplanted?
  - pygy_ 12y ago
    We'd first have to ensure that the vaginal flora doesn't undergo radical changes during labor. If not, it should be easy to do. The hardest and most expensive part (for mice) would be a sterile C-section to prevent the mice from picking up the wrong bacteria. If it does, the mother's bacteria may have to be complemented according to the expected changes.
- jmnicolas 12y ago
  It's not the first time I read about this. Both my sister and I were born through a cesarean birth and we both suffer from depression. Nothing really bad in our lives to justify these depressions. Here is my sample of 2.
  - return0 12y ago
    me and my brother do not suffer. n=4
ganzuul 12y ago
The intestinal lining contains a large portion of the bio-available serotonergic compounds. That gluten & related grains cause inflammation of the intestinal lining is gaining notoriety. There may be hope that a drop in wheat production leads to a drop in mental health issues.
- pygy_ 12y ago
  The prevalence of gluten sensitivity is actually very low (~1%). It is AFAIK on the rise in the younger generation, for unknown reasons, but still, there are no reasons to expect a drastic change in mental health if we were to stop eating wheat altogether. That is, unless there are infra-clinical effects.
  - cfontes 12y ago
    I am a bit sick of this Gluten thing. I understand that some ( maybe this 1% ) actually have a disease or some deep sensitivity. But from my personal circles and work ones I am seeing lots of people that have always been sensitive and prone to say they have some weird diseases are adopting this, switching to Gluten-free and using it like a brand. I've been away from home for some time, I meet something like 10 people from a total of 100 maybe... that claimed to have some variation of Celiac disease, a few even told me that all their tests were negative, but tests don't matter they still had it. Most of those people didn't know each other. Now I am back home and guess what? I am finding that the same kind of people around here are claiming the same thing. Most of those people I meet at IT related things, sport activities and random day to day life I fell people want to be special and sometimes they do it by having a special condition or something like that. Besides the real ones we keep creating diseases that are really loose specified and releasing it to the public. People catch those things and blame all their problems on some super special condition. I can't seat still, I really can't. And I talk a lot too... I've lived like that, learned to control it and to focus when needed. I am no Jedi, life thought me that this behavior would make my life miserable. Now a days children like me are sick! Wonderful, problem solved.
    - jcromartie 12y ago
mjklin 12y ago
In Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance the author stated that his son suffered from stomach aches and was told it was a sign of possible mental illness. This was back in the 70s, but could there be a connection?
- toyg 12y ago
  The stomach is well-known to suffer from problems when stress levels are high (nervous gastritis etc), something that mental health problems usually produce as side-effects. Here they are claiming microbes living in intestines (which is a different thing) actually cause mental illness. It's a very different thing.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Energy1 12y ago
Any studies being done on sinus related problems? Nasal cavities are hard to reach to deliver medication or to just flush the debris out. Nasal bacteria that fight/feed on mold/fungi?
- toddh 12y ago
  Silent GERD can be related to sinus problems. Acid irritates the sinus and sometimes the ears. Some think the use of antibiotics brought on their problems so it makes sense to think tending to your gut biome might help.
flavor8 12y ago
Making your own ginger beer using a starter that you maintain (google "ginger bug") is an easy way to get into DIY probiotics. And, the book "The Art of Fermentation", which promotes fermenting beverages, vegetables, etc using wild yeasts and generally yielding foods with various Lactobacillus, is a fantastic read.
cpncrunch 12y ago
The article claims that we now have evidence that the gut influences the brain (rather than just correlation), but the evidence isn't exactly compelling. GABA doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so the fact that bacteria in the gut release GABA won't have any effect on the brain. A caesarean will be a huge stressor, and cortisol in the mother is known to affect the brain of the child, so why do they think the bacteria was causal in making these changes when they didn't actually do any controlled tests for the bacteria? Similarly for autism: we know the brain is different, so it seems more likely the brain changes are causing the changes in the gut bacteria rather than the other way around, as we know for certain that brain changes will affect the gut (stress), but there is no evidence that gut bacteria can make these kind of changes in the brain.
- return0 12y ago
  Also how about the autism incidence gap between men and women. I agree with you that the evidence is pointing to the reverse of what is claimed.
- Sone7 12y ago
  There is more evidence than was mentioned in the article. Mice fed Lactobacillus regulate stress better. Populations with gluten free diets have incredibly low schizophrenia rates, until introduced to western diets. Schizophrenia patients making progress in therapy on gluten free diets experience more issues when reintroduced to gluten.
- Lambdanaut 12y ago
  > GABA doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so the fact that bacteria in the gut release GABA won't have any effect on the brain. Yet tons of people take it as a supplement regardless. Maybe it's just placebo? I feel like we should hold out judgement on this. I wouldn't be surprised if GABA somehow affected us in other ways even if it doesn't get into the brain. But yes, as far as we currently know, it shouldn't affect our mental performance.
  - cpncrunch 12y ago
    Any pill you take to improve your performance or health will have some sort of placebo effect. Whether it has any actual effect over and above placebo requires a double-blind RCT. As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that it has any effect over placebo, and the science says it shouldn't. People take all sorts of dubious supplements...
eande 12y ago
About 5 years ago I stopped eating gluten. For me it was mostly some intolerance and skin reaction. Needless to say how well I am doing now compared to before. Finding the link was the hard part and took decades. A side effect I noticed was the disappearance of allergies. I had some level of pollen allergies and can't recall to have any reactions anymore, which is part of having a improved immune system function. This is where it gets interesting to that article. I also noticed my general far better mood stability. I never had much of a problem, but like any human some ups and downs. Being more energetic I recognized also that I am far more upbeat. I do have no real explanation and it is only my case, but I can see the link between the digestion and depression.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- akg 12y ago
  I read somewhere (references below), that most "gluten sensitivity" cases in the US is actually sensitivity to certain pesticides that are used in wheat farming. That's why most people who suffer from gluten sensitivity in the US do just fine when they eat bread in Europe. Have you considered moving to non-GMO certified organic wheat products and seen any difference in your health? http://sustainablepulse.com/2014/02/19/roundup-linked-global-boom-celiac-disease-gluten-intolerance/ http://sustainablepulse.com/2014/02/19/roundup-linked-global... http://www.alternet.org/food/meet-controversial-mit-scientist-who-claims-have-discovered-cause-gluten-sensitivty http://www.alternet.org/food/meet-controversial-mit-scientis... http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/14764-comment-on-critique-of-samsel-and-seneff-glyphosate-review http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/14764-com... Here are some that refute the above: http://www.examiner.com/article/bogus-paper-on-roundup-saturates-the-internet http://www.examiner.com/article/bogus-paper-on-roundup-satur... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsan... http://ultimateglutenfree.com/2014/02/does-glyphosate-cause-celiac-disease-actually-no/ http://ultimateglutenfree.com/2014/02/does-glyphosate-cause-...
return0 12y ago
My mental health is much much better than my gut bacteria's (based on the horrible stuff that i feed them). Just my n=1.
hoopism 12y ago
My daughter is 17 months and recently diagnosed with Autism. For the first few months everything was bout getting a diagnosis so that we could begin therapy asap. Since then I have spent more time trying to see what some of the research suggests in terms of biological and genetics causes. There's a huge community out there experimenting with their children's diets and exposing them to a number of vitamin and drug therapies. I haven't been sufficiently convinced that the risks of many of these therapies outweigh the reward. We did start her on a gluten-free diet (she has digestion issues and gluten intolerance runs in my family) but only because it wasn't risky to try. I don't really KNOW anymore than I did before my daughter's diagnosis... but the lack of substantial research in some of these areas is concerning as a parent. I can understand why a parents may seek to implement some of these drastic changes to help their kids... but I fear that we know so little that it may cause more damage.
- djokkataja 12y ago
  Have any doctors been recommending these kinds of dietary changes to you?
  - hoopism 12y ago
    No. Our pediatrician is not a developmental specialist but is of a similar mindset that there is just not enough evidence to support a lot of the mind/gut theories. Same goes for the metal toxicity and vaccination links. She's not dismissive of diet having a link, but does not feel the risk in the more extreme cases is worth it. She also mentioned that many families experience a great deal of stress as a result. Autistic kids can be difficult when it comes to feeding (textures and sensations can be an issue)... so introducing more restrictions causes the family to have to spend more time on diet and potentially more effort in getting their child to eat... Everyone gets more stressed. That would all be worth it... if it was clear it was effective. Unfortunately often times it turns a difficult situation into a more stressful environment. We deal with many other specialists but they are mostly physical and speech specialists... they are by no means trained in dietary issues. I find a lot of the information out there overwhelming. There's no shortage of claims (both from doctors and parents). It's tempting to latch on to cutting edge studies... but sadly very few have very comprehensive studies.
hanshorst 12y ago
well, just my 2 cents, and a bit offtopic, but it's about gut and bacteria, so food especialy eating can be nutriment, and also 'medicine' (something cultural,and,and,and...). but everybody knows sayings about 'sad an happy' ...'opium' for the masses [1] ? maybe the dosis make the difference to just another junkie [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_exorphin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_exorphin
hanshorst 12y ago
well, just my 2 cents, and a bit offtopic, but it's about gut and bacteria, so food especialy eating can be nutriment, and also 'medicine' (something cultural,and,and,and...). but everybody knows sayings about 'sad an happy' ...'opium' for the masses [1] ? maybe the dosis make the difference to just another junkie [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_exorphin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_exorphin
83457 12y ago
My wife was a psychology major at Marymount University like 15 years ago and I joined her for a talk by a researcher who was promoting the idea that vitamin deficiencies affected mental illness. It has been a long time so I don't remember the details. I just recall specifically that throughout the whole talk everything sounded straight forward, evidence was intriguing, etc and then at the end someone asked how many other psychologists look at vitamin deficiencies, who else is doing research, etc and he said he was the only one he was aware of that did so. Was very surprised. I wonder how much that has changed over the years.

187 points by whyenot 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

nashequilibrium 12y ago

Anybody here has done first hand experiments on themselves care to comment?

kyberias 12y ago
Why would a single experiment on one individual have any interest?
- nhoven 12y ago
  Because self-experimentation is an excellent source of data. Obviously we'd prefer a series of double-blind, controlled experiments whose results have been rigorously replicated, but that doesn't mean that less rigorous experiments have no value.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    > Because self-experimentation is an excellent source of data. No it isn't. People quote Barry Marshall[1] all the time but most people don't perform their self-experimentation with any kind of rigour. How many people have access to endoscopy to take before / after tests? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Marshall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Marshall
    - beagle3 12y ago
      > No it isn't. Self experimentation could be an excellent source of data. Quite a few "interesting" things cannot effectively be rigorously tested, either because we have no effective placebo, or because they are inhumane (e.g., the vast majority of so-called "rigorous" diet studies are actually based on self-reporting and willful compliance, because you can't keep people in controlled a lab for more than a few weeks). Also, as Ionnadis pointed out, quite a bit of (supposedly rigourous) published research is simply wrong. So for a lot of things, we have to do with "amateur hour" experiments, whether conducted in a university lab and published in Nature, or conducted at home and published in a blog. Self-experimentation can easily disprove a "general truth" but cannot really support one due to lack of controls ( and do recall the scientific method is statement about disproving things, not about proving them) However, if you do stumble on a local version of a "general truth", you can then look for the n->inf version more rigorously. You can look at e.g. the late Seth Roberts for examples; the ideas are interesting, some of his successes have been replicated by enough people; Among these - correlation between Vitamin D intake time and sleep quality (see gwern for a rigorous test of that experiment, that confirms it for n=|{gwern}|=1, and many other less rigorous; Rigorous correlation among flax seed (supposedly omega 3) intake, butter, bacon and response time for n=|{seth}|=1, which I have not published but have verified rigorously for n=|me|=1 about flax seed. And there are a few others. I think some of his ideas are crazy but almost all are interesting. (Self-reported) success on his Shangri-La diet is ~80%, which is very high for a diet, but obviously not a general truth since it is not 100%. It worked for me once, but not the 2nd time a couple of years later despite following exactly the same protocol. I'd say self-experimentation is much less rigorous, but way more time-and-captial efficient way of arriving at results.
      - mrfusion 12y ago
        I think most of our progress in life is self-experimentation in one sort or another. We try things and do what works and stop doing what doesn't. By the way, did anyone find out what happened to Seth?
        beagle3 12y ago
        According to http://blog.sethroberts.net/2014/05/10/cause-of-death/ http://blog.sethroberts.net/2014/05/10/cause-of-death/ , his family should be getting the report around now, and they mentioned the intend to share the details.
- brador 12y ago
  Because it gives you ideas for new things to try. Especially useful when all known solutions have failed.
poober 12y ago
You might be interested in our startup. Our pitch is we are the Uber of poo. Steaming hot delivery to your doorstep, custom crowdsourced blend.
dlss 12y ago
I'm the CEO of GeneralBiotics.com, we sell a probiotic created using Human Microbiome Project datasets (our CTO did his postdoctoral work there). The product is not a DIY FMT, but serves a similar function (restore missing aggregate metabolic pathways). Personally, from generation 1 of our product onwards I've felt considerably less stressed, more upbeat/happy, and haven't had diarrhea (I have IBS-D, so that's a huge one for me personally). Our pilot study has offered us preliminary confirmation of this, so we're paying for a 200 person placebo-controlled follow up study. Early versions did have hiccups, but IMO gas is FAR preferable to diarrhea. I don't personally think DIY is worth the risk, as there are a lot of things you'd absolutely need to screen for if you're considering that route (see http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776501_4 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776501_4 for a minimal list). I think you should also screen for mental disorders, stress disorders, mood disorders, etc. Basically anything known to be correlated with the microbiome at minimum. Assuming you've screened for those things (which is to say basically a pro-level FMT), I think it's basically safe -- there are a lot of FMT procedures performed every year with minimal side effects. #include disclaimer: obviously not medical advice, etc, etc
- lunarcave 12y ago
  Very Interesting. I'd be willing to give a go, but I don't think you ship to my country.
  - dlss 12y ago
    Alas. Shipping microbes across borders is a tricky business. It takes about 30 days to get a decision one way or another, we are prioritizing lawyer time using the wait list: http://eepurl.com/5qS9z http://eepurl.com/5qS9z
    - deskamess 12y ago
      I signed up and curious how high Canada is on the list... I see a lot of pro/pre biotic products in the store so it is certainly not banned. Another question... what is your take on the fecal transplant process and do you ever think it could end up in a "pill format"? Are you aware of any such pills in the North American market?
ganzuul 12y ago
Reducing my intake of short carbohydrates in combination with changing to a gluten-free diet has vastly improved my mental health and emotional stability. ED: Can't reply because of rate-limiting. So; It breaks down a bit differently. Foods which are gluten-free are quite different in several ways. There are a lot of unhealthy things I avoid while also avoiding gluten. I think that short carbs influence the dopaminergic system which intestinal health influences the serotonergic system. Both are feel-good hormones. I suffer from chronic depression which seems to mean permanently reduced levels of one or both of these. I'm an 80s kid, meaning my formative years happened during a time which was crazy on many levels. I don't have diabetes, fortunately. Aside from chronic depression I'm in very good health. Take this as you will.
- r00fus 12y ago
  Which do you think had the bigger impact?
- stef25 12y ago
  Are you coeliac or you just think that gluten is bad for you?
  - Mc_Big_G 12y ago
    I know it's popular to make fun of people who don't eat gluten and don't have celiac disease and I'm the first one to correct people who says gluten is "bad for you", however this is not the full story. There are people who are "gluten sensitive" and my wife is one of them. More specifically, she is only sensitive to gluten in American products. She cannot eat anything with gluten here in the US without immediately having very painful stomach cramps and bloating. We spend about one month per year in Spain, where she is from, and she eats all the bread and gluten that she wants with absolutely no problems. So, all I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't be quick to judge people who don't eat gluten and don't have celiac, unless they're just doing it because they heard it was bad.
    - Stefan-H 12y ago
      "only sensitive to gluten in American products" I have a hard time believing that the nationality of the gluten has anything to do with her reactions. Perhaps you are confusing correlation with causation? I think the more likely cause of her reactions is something else in the products in the US that are causing her reactions. An interesting study for you to take a look at as well: http://www.businessinsider.com/gluten-sensitivity-and-study-replication-2014-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/gluten-sensitivity-and-study-...
ericson578 12y ago
I've been doing a strict ketogenic diet for almost six months. Very low carb from veggies mostly, 25% of my diet is protein, and about %70 healthy fats. My allergies were terrible before, now they are barely there and manageable taking the occasional zyrtec. My gastrointestinal issues are mostly gone, although I've read that could be from a reduction in inflammation in the gut lining, but might be related to changes in my gut microbes too. Hard to tell. My energy levels are more sustained and even (no more crashes), and my moods are generally better. Who knows if my changing gut flora is the reason, it might be. I know not feeding those little buggers tons of sugar really changes things up! :) Or it's all placebo and I'm just healthier in general. Either way I'm feeling better. I'm sure science will eventually figure out if the link is causal or not, but in the meantime don't let my anecdotal story sway you too much. edit: oops I forgot to mention I also take a probiotic every now and then. Align is the name, I like it but I don't take probiotics regularly.

jhulla 12y ago

It seems there are people who are DIY fecal transplants in the hopes of addressing various maladies and illnesses. https://www.google.com/search?q=diy+fecal+transplants https://www.google.com/search?q=diy+fecal+transplants

1qaz2wsx3edc 12y ago
There are some links/searches on the internet I don't want to click. This is one of them. I have no problem with others looking at this, I think it's probably great, but for me this is where I nope out.
- josefresco 12y ago
  While you have been down voted for expressing your "nope" opinion. I think a proper way to handle this would be to add some sort of warning/tag before posting links to content which may shock/offend etc.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    It's a google search. Warning people that searching for 'fecal' on google might return discussions of feces is unnecessary in my opinion.
Sir_Vival 12y ago
I did this for IBS. It helped me out tremendously - it didn't cure me, but it allowed me to go on vacation at a time when I was hitting up the bathroom 10 times a day. Funny side note - my poop has no smell. For quite a while after the transplant, mine smelled like the donor's. It proved that it took hold, for a month or two at least. Now I take Cholestyramine every day, and that has helped even more.

hliyan 12y ago

More importantly, article also mentions that Caesarean births, due to non-exposure to maternal vaginal microbes, might result in lifelong mental health changes.

walterbell 12y ago
> "when a lab makes a mouse by in vitro fertilization, the animal will pick up microbes from its surrogate mother, which might differ greatly from those of its genetic mother" Can the microbes be transplanted?
- pygy_ 12y ago
  We'd first have to ensure that the vaginal flora doesn't undergo radical changes during labor. If not, it should be easy to do. The hardest and most expensive part (for mice) would be a sterile C-section to prevent the mice from picking up the wrong bacteria. If it does, the mother's bacteria may have to be complemented according to the expected changes.
jmnicolas 12y ago
It's not the first time I read about this. Both my sister and I were born through a cesarean birth and we both suffer from depression. Nothing really bad in our lives to justify these depressions. Here is my sample of 2.
- return0 12y ago
  me and my brother do not suffer. n=4

ganzuul 12y ago

The intestinal lining contains a large portion of the bio-available serotonergic compounds. That gluten & related grains cause inflammation of the intestinal lining is gaining notoriety. There may be hope that a drop in wheat production leads to a drop in mental health issues.

pygy_ 12y ago
The prevalence of gluten sensitivity is actually very low (~1%). It is AFAIK on the rise in the younger generation, for unknown reasons, but still, there are no reasons to expect a drastic change in mental health if we were to stop eating wheat altogether. That is, unless there are infra-clinical effects.
- cfontes 12y ago
  I am a bit sick of this Gluten thing. I understand that some ( maybe this 1% ) actually have a disease or some deep sensitivity. But from my personal circles and work ones I am seeing lots of people that have always been sensitive and prone to say they have some weird diseases are adopting this, switching to Gluten-free and using it like a brand. I've been away from home for some time, I meet something like 10 people from a total of 100 maybe... that claimed to have some variation of Celiac disease, a few even told me that all their tests were negative, but tests don't matter they still had it. Most of those people didn't know each other. Now I am back home and guess what? I am finding that the same kind of people around here are claiming the same thing. Most of those people I meet at IT related things, sport activities and random day to day life I fell people want to be special and sometimes they do it by having a special condition or something like that. Besides the real ones we keep creating diseases that are really loose specified and releasing it to the public. People catch those things and blame all their problems on some super special condition. I can't seat still, I really can't. And I talk a lot too... I've lived like that, learned to control it and to focus when needed. I am no Jedi, life thought me that this behavior would make my life miserable. Now a days children like me are sick! Wonderful, problem solved.
  - jcromartie 12y ago

mjklin 12y ago

In Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance the author stated that his son suffered from stomach aches and was told it was a sign of possible mental illness. This was back in the 70s, but could there be a connection?

toyg 12y ago
The stomach is well-known to suffer from problems when stress levels are high (nervous gastritis etc), something that mental health problems usually produce as side-effects. Here they are claiming microbes living in intestines (which is a different thing) actually cause mental illness. It's a very different thing.

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Energy1 12y ago

Any studies being done on sinus related problems? Nasal cavities are hard to reach to deliver medication or to just flush the debris out. Nasal bacteria that fight/feed on mold/fungi?

toddh 12y ago
Silent GERD can be related to sinus problems. Acid irritates the sinus and sometimes the ears. Some think the use of antibiotics brought on their problems so it makes sense to think tending to your gut biome might help.

flavor8 12y ago

Making your own ginger beer using a starter that you maintain (google "ginger bug") is an easy way to get into DIY probiotics. And, the book "The Art of Fermentation", which promotes fermenting beverages, vegetables, etc using wild yeasts and generally yielding foods with various Lactobacillus, is a fantastic read.

cpncrunch 12y ago

The article claims that we now have evidence that the gut influences the brain (rather than just correlation), but the evidence isn't exactly compelling. GABA doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so the fact that bacteria in the gut release GABA won't have any effect on the brain. A caesarean will be a huge stressor, and cortisol in the mother is known to affect the brain of the child, so why do they think the bacteria was causal in making these changes when they didn't actually do any controlled tests for the bacteria? Similarly for autism: we know the brain is different, so it seems more likely the brain changes are causing the changes in the gut bacteria rather than the other way around, as we know for certain that brain changes will affect the gut (stress), but there is no evidence that gut bacteria can make these kind of changes in the brain.

return0 12y ago
Also how about the autism incidence gap between men and women. I agree with you that the evidence is pointing to the reverse of what is claimed.
Sone7 12y ago
There is more evidence than was mentioned in the article. Mice fed Lactobacillus regulate stress better. Populations with gluten free diets have incredibly low schizophrenia rates, until introduced to western diets. Schizophrenia patients making progress in therapy on gluten free diets experience more issues when reintroduced to gluten.
Lambdanaut 12y ago
> GABA doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, so the fact that bacteria in the gut release GABA won't have any effect on the brain. Yet tons of people take it as a supplement regardless. Maybe it's just placebo? I feel like we should hold out judgement on this. I wouldn't be surprised if GABA somehow affected us in other ways even if it doesn't get into the brain. But yes, as far as we currently know, it shouldn't affect our mental performance.
- cpncrunch 12y ago
  Any pill you take to improve your performance or health will have some sort of placebo effect. Whether it has any actual effect over and above placebo requires a double-blind RCT. As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that it has any effect over placebo, and the science says it shouldn't. People take all sorts of dubious supplements...

eande 12y ago

About 5 years ago I stopped eating gluten. For me it was mostly some intolerance and skin reaction. Needless to say how well I am doing now compared to before. Finding the link was the hard part and took decades. A side effect I noticed was the disappearance of allergies. I had some level of pollen allergies and can't recall to have any reactions anymore, which is part of having a improved immune system function. This is where it gets interesting to that article. I also noticed my general far better mood stability. I never had much of a problem, but like any human some ups and downs. Being more energetic I recognized also that I am far more upbeat. I do have no real explanation and it is only my case, but I can see the link between the digestion and depression.

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akg 12y ago
I read somewhere (references below), that most "gluten sensitivity" cases in the US is actually sensitivity to certain pesticides that are used in wheat farming. That's why most people who suffer from gluten sensitivity in the US do just fine when they eat bread in Europe. Have you considered moving to non-GMO certified organic wheat products and seen any difference in your health? http://sustainablepulse.com/2014/02/19/roundup-linked-global-boom-celiac-disease-gluten-intolerance/ http://sustainablepulse.com/2014/02/19/roundup-linked-global... http://www.alternet.org/food/meet-controversial-mit-scientist-who-claims-have-discovered-cause-gluten-sensitivty http://www.alternet.org/food/meet-controversial-mit-scientis... http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/14764-comment-on-critique-of-samsel-and-seneff-glyphosate-review http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/14764-com... Here are some that refute the above: http://www.examiner.com/article/bogus-paper-on-roundup-saturates-the-internet http://www.examiner.com/article/bogus-paper-on-roundup-satur... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsanto-with-_b_3162694.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tamar-haspel/condemning-monsan... http://ultimateglutenfree.com/2014/02/does-glyphosate-cause-celiac-disease-actually-no/ http://ultimateglutenfree.com/2014/02/does-glyphosate-cause-...

return0 12y ago

My mental health is much much better than my gut bacteria's (based on the horrible stuff that i feed them). Just my n=1.

hoopism 12y ago

My daughter is 17 months and recently diagnosed with Autism. For the first few months everything was bout getting a diagnosis so that we could begin therapy asap. Since then I have spent more time trying to see what some of the research suggests in terms of biological and genetics causes. There's a huge community out there experimenting with their children's diets and exposing them to a number of vitamin and drug therapies. I haven't been sufficiently convinced that the risks of many of these therapies outweigh the reward. We did start her on a gluten-free diet (she has digestion issues and gluten intolerance runs in my family) but only because it wasn't risky to try. I don't really KNOW anymore than I did before my daughter's diagnosis... but the lack of substantial research in some of these areas is concerning as a parent. I can understand why a parents may seek to implement some of these drastic changes to help their kids... but I fear that we know so little that it may cause more damage.

djokkataja 12y ago
Have any doctors been recommending these kinds of dietary changes to you?
- hoopism 12y ago
  No. Our pediatrician is not a developmental specialist but is of a similar mindset that there is just not enough evidence to support a lot of the mind/gut theories. Same goes for the metal toxicity and vaccination links. She's not dismissive of diet having a link, but does not feel the risk in the more extreme cases is worth it. She also mentioned that many families experience a great deal of stress as a result. Autistic kids can be difficult when it comes to feeding (textures and sensations can be an issue)... so introducing more restrictions causes the family to have to spend more time on diet and potentially more effort in getting their child to eat... Everyone gets more stressed. That would all be worth it... if it was clear it was effective. Unfortunately often times it turns a difficult situation into a more stressful environment. We deal with many other specialists but they are mostly physical and speech specialists... they are by no means trained in dietary issues. I find a lot of the information out there overwhelming. There's no shortage of claims (both from doctors and parents). It's tempting to latch on to cutting edge studies... but sadly very few have very comprehensive studies.

hanshorst 12y ago

well, just my 2 cents, and a bit offtopic, but it's about gut and bacteria, so food especialy eating can be nutriment, and also 'medicine' (something cultural,and,and,and...). but everybody knows sayings about 'sad an happy' ...'opium' for the masses [1] ? maybe the dosis make the difference to just another junkie [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_exorphin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_exorphin

hanshorst 12y ago

83457 12y ago

My wife was a psychology major at Marymount University like 15 years ago and I joined her for a talk by a researcher who was promoting the idea that vitamin deficiencies affected mental illness. It has been a long time so I don't remember the details. I just recall specifically that throughout the whole talk everything sounded straight forward, evidence was intriguing, etc and then at the end someone asked how many other psychologists look at vitamin deficiencies, who else is doing research, etc and he said he was the only one he was aware of that did so. Was very surprised. I wonder how much that has changed over the years.