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> But why are we removing the need/worry for individuals to do this for themselves? As a german, who lives in a system of universal health coverage and unemplo

> But why are we removing the need/worry for individuals to do this for themselves? As a german, who lives in a system of universal health coverage and unemployment payments i can tell you that that is a very naive way of looking at it. There are two very strong factors that mitigate this: 1. Most humans wish to be useful. Most humans wish to do some kind of work in their lives. This is not theoretical, this is real. We found in germany that unemployment can strongly contribute to depression. Additionally people who are not employed will often find ways to contribute otherwise. We have a strong culture of volunteer workers here in germany. 2. In order to provide a useful, yet humane, push to people, there is one single requirement for unemployment payments: People have to regularly provide copies of job applications they sent out. There are many more details to the system than i have the leisure to describe here, but please, do yourself a favour and read up on our system before you dismiss the possibility of an implementation. > These aren't some pipe-dream schemes or ideas, they exist. Universal health coverage and unemployment payments are also not pipe-dream schemes or ideas, they exist.

frogpelt 12y ago
Perhaps you should amend your post to say "1. Most Germans wish to be useful...." The German culture tends to value hard work for the sake of hard work higher than other cultures. Even Americans don't glorify hard work for it's own sake. It's all part of the "American dream" to end up well-off, to climb the ladder.
- cameldrv 12y ago
  Not all Germans wish to be useful, there are plenty of freeloaders. Assuming you've had a job, you get a good percentage of your salary for a while, and then once that's run out, you get a house deemed adequate for your family, health insurance, and about $500 a month. This is not enough for a great life, and no one with any ambition is going to accept that standard of living. That said, some do, and mostly, Germans are willing to live with paying for that. The flip side is that this is the worst your life can ever get. Having Hartz IV as a very deep backstop gives people a real confidence and peace about their lives that doesn't exist in the U.S.
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- otakucode 12y ago
  >Even Americans don't glorify hard work for it's own sake. This is a hard thing to argue about, but I think you could not be more wrong about this. Americans identify themselves very strongly with being productive at their jobs. They take few vacations. Any suggestion that people should be paid more or get more time off is denigrated as laziness. Unlike many other countries, having a gap in your work history is seen as a huge warning sign. You saved up money and took 2 years off? Good luck getting another job. America still has a tremendous amount of the Protestant Work Ethic in it. Why do you think America has stood by while companies got rid of pensions, and go decade after decade after decade not giving raises?
- e12e 12y ago
  I wonder, who are all these people that would prefer to live close to the existence minimum, subsidizing off welfare, and not do anything productive? Is it you? Many of your friends? Do you actually know anyone that would prefer to not be useful? Not to mention, that I think pretty much everywhere, the amount of resources society as a whole end up wasting on the idle rich in one form or another, probably makes that wasted on "freeloaders" and "those abusing the system" a rounding error.

frogpelt 12y ago

Perhaps you should amend your post to say "1. Most Germans wish to be useful...." The German culture tends to value hard work for the sake of hard work higher than other cultures. Even Americans don't glorify hard work for it's own sake. It's all part of the "American dream" to end up well-off, to climb the ladder.

cameldrv 12y ago
Not all Germans wish to be useful, there are plenty of freeloaders. Assuming you've had a job, you get a good percentage of your salary for a while, and then once that's run out, you get a house deemed adequate for your family, health insurance, and about $500 a month. This is not enough for a great life, and no one with any ambition is going to accept that standard of living. That said, some do, and mostly, Germans are willing to live with paying for that. The flip side is that this is the worst your life can ever get. Having Hartz IV as a very deep backstop gives people a real confidence and peace about their lives that doesn't exist in the U.S.
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otakucode 12y ago
>Even Americans don't glorify hard work for it's own sake. This is a hard thing to argue about, but I think you could not be more wrong about this. Americans identify themselves very strongly with being productive at their jobs. They take few vacations. Any suggestion that people should be paid more or get more time off is denigrated as laziness. Unlike many other countries, having a gap in your work history is seen as a huge warning sign. You saved up money and took 2 years off? Good luck getting another job. America still has a tremendous amount of the Protestant Work Ethic in it. Why do you think America has stood by while companies got rid of pensions, and go decade after decade after decade not giving raises?
e12e 12y ago
I wonder, who are all these people that would prefer to live close to the existence minimum, subsidizing off welfare, and not do anything productive? Is it you? Many of your friends? Do you actually know anyone that would prefer to not be useful? Not to mention, that I think pretty much everywhere, the amount of resources society as a whole end up wasting on the idle rich in one form or another, probably makes that wasted on "freeloaders" and "those abusing the system" a rounding error.