5 ms·

"a basic income for all adult citizens. [..]shielding workers from harm due to business changes" As I read that, I agree with you... Until I realize you meant

by zo1 12y ago

"a basic income for all adult citizens. [..]shielding workers from harm due to business changes" As I read that, I agree with you... Until I realize you meant that to be provided for by others via taxes. Now, I understand the compulsion to protect everyone in the name of some social good, at the very least the "not as fortune as me-group". But why are we removing the need/worry for individuals to do this for themselves? I say this because I know for a fact that this is achievable for individuals (even poor ones). For a quite-honestly, tiny-fraction of my salary, I get all sorts of income-protection. Due to illness, terminal disease, disability, everything. Add on top of that life-insurance for my family to pay off the loan-amount on the mortgage and have them covered till my child is reasonably on his way to college, if I should leave them early. These aren't some pipe-dream schemes or ideas, they exist. And people can get them, without the need to beg some "noble" politician to give it to them for free in return for votes/power.

sanderjd 12y ago
Color me ignorant, but I really have no idea what cheap private income protection you're referring to.
- zo1 12y ago
  Here's some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_protection_insurance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_protection_insurance https://www.pps.co.za/pages/faq/INCAPACITY.php https://www.pps.co.za/pages/faq/INCAPACITY.php A government one, even though you pay for it: http://www.sars.gov.za/TaxTypes/UIF/Pages/default.aspx http://www.sars.gov.za/TaxTypes/UIF/Pages/default.aspx Apparently, the US has it as well, though I'm not sure how equivalent to the above it is: http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/unemployment-insurance/ http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/unemployment-insurance/
  - sanderjd 12y ago
    Thanks for the links! I'm in the US and, as far as I know, we don't have anything like the policy discussed in your wikipedia link. Unemployment insurance is a good thing (and I'm curious why it didn't show up at all in the original article) but it doesn't help much with the health insurance issue.
    - phonon 12y ago
      Yes there is-- incomeassure.com I helped create it.
      - sanderjd 12y ago
        Great! Thanks for the link. Looks like a very nice service, and I'm glad to know it exists. I was pleasantly surprised how affordable it seems to be.
manicdee 12y ago
Your privilege is showing. Specifically, you are on a high enough income that you aren't worrying about food, much less mortgage repayments, job stability, whether you can afford fuel for the car this week, or whether you need to just rinse clothes in water to save the money you would have spent on detergent for more important things like food, rent, or bus tickets. There are also pele out there who won't miss another $100k in taxes. Their worries are along the lines of "how can I make all my money work for me without swamping any single market?" Taxation and social welfare is just the modern version of "feed your slaves." You should be happy to provide universal health care and subsistence income in order to ensure your future workforce is healthy, educated and stress-free. We treat our racing horses better than this.
- none_for_me_thx 12y ago
  Complaining about "privilege" is limp-wristed ad hominem intended to silence viewpoints you don't like, as evidenced by your refusal to take seriously zo1's points ("You should be happy ..."). zo1's arguments are valid or invalid independent of her/his "privilege" (whatever that even means).
  - kjs3 12y ago
    Saying privilege doesn't factor in when someone trots out the old "poor people would be just fine if they weren't lazy/ignorant/poor/etc" is just as much an attempt to silence a viewpoint you clearly don't agree with.
    - wutbrodo 12y ago
      Nonsense. The view that (to paraphrase) "poverty is attributable to laziness" is ridiculous on its own merits; Your claim that an ad hominem is necessary to show how wrong it is is even more ridiculous.
    - none_for_me_thx 12y ago
      Luckily, no one trotted out that argument. Even if they had trotted it out, making wimpy appeals to the claimant's "privilege" has no bearing on whether the statement "poor people would be just fine if they weren't lazy/ignorant/poor/etc" is true or not. Such claims can be exploded in the same way as any other false claim. By addressing the argument and exposing it as untrue.
Mithaldu 12y ago
> But why are we removing the need/worry for individuals to do this for themselves? As a german, who lives in a system of universal health coverage and unemployment payments i can tell you that that is a very naive way of looking at it. There are two very strong factors that mitigate this: 1. Most humans wish to be useful. Most humans wish to do some kind of work in their lives. This is not theoretical, this is real. We found in germany that unemployment can strongly contribute to depression. Additionally people who are not employed will often find ways to contribute otherwise. We have a strong culture of volunteer workers here in germany. 2. In order to provide a useful, yet humane, push to people, there is one single requirement for unemployment payments: People have to regularly provide copies of job applications they sent out. There are many more details to the system than i have the leisure to describe here, but please, do yourself a favour and read up on our system before you dismiss the possibility of an implementation. > These aren't some pipe-dream schemes or ideas, they exist. Universal health coverage and unemployment payments are also not pipe-dream schemes or ideas, they exist.
- frogpelt 12y ago
  Perhaps you should amend your post to say "1. Most Germans wish to be useful...." The German culture tends to value hard work for the sake of hard work higher than other cultures. Even Americans don't glorify hard work for it's own sake. It's all part of the "American dream" to end up well-off, to climb the ladder.
  - cameldrv 12y ago
    Not all Germans wish to be useful, there are plenty of freeloaders. Assuming you've had a job, you get a good percentage of your salary for a while, and then once that's run out, you get a house deemed adequate for your family, health insurance, and about $500 a month. This is not enough for a great life, and no one with any ambition is going to accept that standard of living. That said, some do, and mostly, Germans are willing to live with paying for that. The flip side is that this is the worst your life can ever get. Having Hartz IV as a very deep backstop gives people a real confidence and peace about their lives that doesn't exist in the U.S.
crpatino 12y ago
Until your weasel executive terminates your job along with a thousand others, so the company looks more profitable prior to an IPO (which to my middle-class simpleton mind is indistinguishable from fraud, because the buyers of stock are not expecting to buy an empty shell of a company with compromised operative capabilities)... Then when the severance begins to run short and you miss a payment of your insurance - just this once - if you get hit by a bus your kids will be left to fend for themselves.
- zo1 12y ago
  I'm not saying it's unlikely... These things do happen, and we need to be aware of them. We need to be afraid of them, and prepare accordingly. But pretending like they don't exist and "can never happen to me" is like sticking your head in the sand.
otakucode 12y ago
>But why are we removing the need/worry for individuals to do this for themselves? Computers and automation technology have made individual workers so productive that employers no longer need nearly as many workers as there are workers who need jobs. And we know very well what happens, right or wrong on an individual level, when there are large numbers of people who can not work but who still need to eat. And it's not pretty. Protection from that should be something every corporation willingly pays an increased tax rate for. The alternative is a destroyed economy that will take their organization down with it.

by zo1 12y ago

sanderjd 12y ago

Color me ignorant, but I really have no idea what cheap private income protection you're referring to.

zo1 12y ago
Here's some links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_protection_insurance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_protection_insurance https://www.pps.co.za/pages/faq/INCAPACITY.php https://www.pps.co.za/pages/faq/INCAPACITY.php A government one, even though you pay for it: http://www.sars.gov.za/TaxTypes/UIF/Pages/default.aspx http://www.sars.gov.za/TaxTypes/UIF/Pages/default.aspx Apparently, the US has it as well, though I'm not sure how equivalent to the above it is: http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/unemployment-insurance/ http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/unemployment-insurance/
- sanderjd 12y ago
  Thanks for the links! I'm in the US and, as far as I know, we don't have anything like the policy discussed in your wikipedia link. Unemployment insurance is a good thing (and I'm curious why it didn't show up at all in the original article) but it doesn't help much with the health insurance issue.
  - phonon 12y ago
    Yes there is-- incomeassure.com I helped create it.
    - sanderjd 12y ago
      Great! Thanks for the link. Looks like a very nice service, and I'm glad to know it exists. I was pleasantly surprised how affordable it seems to be.

manicdee 12y ago

Your privilege is showing. Specifically, you are on a high enough income that you aren't worrying about food, much less mortgage repayments, job stability, whether you can afford fuel for the car this week, or whether you need to just rinse clothes in water to save the money you would have spent on detergent for more important things like food, rent, or bus tickets. There are also pele out there who won't miss another $100k in taxes. Their worries are along the lines of "how can I make all my money work for me without swamping any single market?" Taxation and social welfare is just the modern version of "feed your slaves." You should be happy to provide universal health care and subsistence income in order to ensure your future workforce is healthy, educated and stress-free. We treat our racing horses better than this.

none_for_me_thx 12y ago
Complaining about "privilege" is limp-wristed ad hominem intended to silence viewpoints you don't like, as evidenced by your refusal to take seriously zo1's points ("You should be happy ..."). zo1's arguments are valid or invalid independent of her/his "privilege" (whatever that even means).
- kjs3 12y ago
  Saying privilege doesn't factor in when someone trots out the old "poor people would be just fine if they weren't lazy/ignorant/poor/etc" is just as much an attempt to silence a viewpoint you clearly don't agree with.
  - wutbrodo 12y ago
    Nonsense. The view that (to paraphrase) "poverty is attributable to laziness" is ridiculous on its own merits; Your claim that an ad hominem is necessary to show how wrong it is is even more ridiculous.
  - none_for_me_thx 12y ago
    Luckily, no one trotted out that argument. Even if they had trotted it out, making wimpy appeals to the claimant's "privilege" has no bearing on whether the statement "poor people would be just fine if they weren't lazy/ignorant/poor/etc" is true or not. Such claims can be exploded in the same way as any other false claim. By addressing the argument and exposing it as untrue.

Mithaldu 12y ago

> But why are we removing the need/worry for individuals to do this for themselves? As a german, who lives in a system of universal health coverage and unemployment payments i can tell you that that is a very naive way of looking at it. There are two very strong factors that mitigate this: 1. Most humans wish to be useful. Most humans wish to do some kind of work in their lives. This is not theoretical, this is real. We found in germany that unemployment can strongly contribute to depression. Additionally people who are not employed will often find ways to contribute otherwise. We have a strong culture of volunteer workers here in germany. 2. In order to provide a useful, yet humane, push to people, there is one single requirement for unemployment payments: People have to regularly provide copies of job applications they sent out. There are many more details to the system than i have the leisure to describe here, but please, do yourself a favour and read up on our system before you dismiss the possibility of an implementation. > These aren't some pipe-dream schemes or ideas, they exist. Universal health coverage and unemployment payments are also not pipe-dream schemes or ideas, they exist.

frogpelt 12y ago
Perhaps you should amend your post to say "1. Most Germans wish to be useful...." The German culture tends to value hard work for the sake of hard work higher than other cultures. Even Americans don't glorify hard work for it's own sake. It's all part of the "American dream" to end up well-off, to climb the ladder.
- cameldrv 12y ago
  Not all Germans wish to be useful, there are plenty of freeloaders. Assuming you've had a job, you get a good percentage of your salary for a while, and then once that's run out, you get a house deemed adequate for your family, health insurance, and about $500 a month. This is not enough for a great life, and no one with any ambition is going to accept that standard of living. That said, some do, and mostly, Germans are willing to live with paying for that. The flip side is that this is the worst your life can ever get. Having Hartz IV as a very deep backstop gives people a real confidence and peace about their lives that doesn't exist in the U.S.

crpatino 12y ago

Until your weasel executive terminates your job along with a thousand others, so the company looks more profitable prior to an IPO (which to my middle-class simpleton mind is indistinguishable from fraud, because the buyers of stock are not expecting to buy an empty shell of a company with compromised operative capabilities)... Then when the severance begins to run short and you miss a payment of your insurance - just this once - if you get hit by a bus your kids will be left to fend for themselves.

zo1 12y ago
I'm not saying it's unlikely... These things do happen, and we need to be aware of them. We need to be afraid of them, and prepare accordingly. But pretending like they don't exist and "can never happen to me" is like sticking your head in the sand.

otakucode 12y ago

>But why are we removing the need/worry for individuals to do this for themselves? Computers and automation technology have made individual workers so productive that employers no longer need nearly as many workers as there are workers who need jobs. And we know very well what happens, right or wrong on an individual level, when there are large numbers of people who can not work but who still need to eat. And it's not pretty. Protection from that should be something every corporation willingly pays an increased tax rate for. The alternative is a destroyed economy that will take their organization down with it.