9 ms·

Race in Silicon Valley

60 points by crdr88 12y ago

a_gentle_autist 12y ago
"I have a slightly different view. In the report that Google published, they said they've spent roughly $40 million on diversity efforts over the past 10 years. They've spent, I'll guess, several hundreds of millions of dollars in the past two years on self-driving cars. If companies like Google truly wanted to solve this problem, they'd spend more than $40 million over 10 years and make a much more significant effort. So my conclusion is that right now we actually don't want to solve it." Stunningly frank observation, dumping money into a project that will never see the light of day. Ah, Google.
- chroma 12y ago
  These priorities seem sane to me. Vehicles kill over a million people every year. Self-driving cars can drastically reduce that number.
  - a_gentle_autist 12y ago
    Ones that get to market, like those from Mercedes, VW, Tesla. Google's car tech, and software, will never be adopted by an auto manufacturer. And Google will never sell cars.
    - kenrikm 12y ago
      They may just buy Uber (they are a big investor) and run their own fleet.. Lets not forget Google also has Google Shopping Express and their mapping cars.. making those self driving could be a huge thing for Google. Example: Shopping express car drives up, opens a compartment you retrieve your box and it drives off. Uber drives up you get in, it brings you to your destination you get out, no driver required.
    - swashboon 12y ago
      I am wondering why you think that Google technologies will never be adopted. From what I have seen of the industry there is a good chance they will be adopted. Google also does not have to sell cars to consumers, it could modify cars to sell a service.
      - bduerst 12y ago
        That seems like the more appropriate market approach, right? Cars are these large depreciating assets that spend 22 hours a day doing nothing, save for that one long road trip vacation you take. Factor out driver salaries and driver insurance, you should save money with an on-demand fleet vs. making payments on your own vehicle.
- bduerst 12y ago
  This falls to the classic Hume's Guillotine (is-ought problem). It's very easy to speculate about what someone should be doing vs. what is actually needed, what is being done, and the network effects of both.
  - kenrikm 12y ago
    I think getting more minorities in STEM from an early age (K12) would be a good start.
    - danilocampos 12y ago
      This is called the pipeline fallacy and ignores that companies hire at dramatically lower rates (0%-2% for blacks, 2%-3% for latinos) than there are graduates (4%-8%, depending on your source) for a given underrepresented background
      - meowface 12y ago
        Lower rates than there are graduates or than there are applicants to each company? Given the former, there are still numerous potential explanations for why this could be the case, none of which necessarily involve bias or discrimination on the part of the companies or hiring staff.
    - meowface 12y ago
      I agree, but in many cases there's not that much most companies can do about this. Do all the initiatives you want and raise as much money as you like, you're not going to somehow overhaul an entire culture (in family life, in schools, among peers) in a few years.
a_gentle_autist 12y ago
Some choice quotes: "So even for a mid-level or lower-level engineer, they'll tell us, "I only want someone who went to Stanford," or someone who has started a company before." "And most companies in Silicon Valley say, "We hire from these five schools, period," right?" "If you go to those five schools, the percentage of minorities and the percentage of women is X and Y. Let's say it's 3% and 10%. If those companies hire only 10% of the people they interview, then the number [of minority hires] you get is zero. Right? It's zero." Absolutely revolting.
- api 12y ago
  "We hire from these five schools, period," right?" I'm so glad they brought this up. This is the elephant in the living room, and is a root cause behind a lot of these issues. The "top ten universities" fetish is by far the most significant mechanism for the perpetuation of aristocracy and aristocratic networks in our society. It's a effectively a feudal system of "knighthood," or at least analogous to that. Those who are admitted to top tier universities are tapped to be at least considered as future members of the nobility. I'd love to see some real data on employee (and founder) performance vs. where they went to school.
  - a_gentle_autist 12y ago
    Here's what I've noticed. There's no correlation. It doesn't mean anything. It's a position taken out of fear. At this point, if you've graduated from top ten universities I will ignore your resume, because you won't have the hunger I want from an employee, nor where you have great creative thinking.
    - api 12y ago
      That's been my suspicion for some time too. "Nobody ever got fired for hiring someone from Stanford."
      - jacquesm 12y ago
        I've hired a fair number of people, college educated (UK top schools), 1 from a top tier US university and a whole scala of other levels of education, all the way to none. My experience (which is very limited) was that the people that were less educated had more drive because they were given a chance but the people that had a degree of education that was generally perceived as higher were more productive even without that level of drive and the quality of their output was generally higher. This is probably not surprising but with very few exceptions that seemed to be the rule (and those exceptions were totally off the scale).
epicureanideal 12y ago
I don't mean to diminish the point they're making in the article at all, but there are some parts that jump out... "And imagine that the worst happens, that your startup fails. You're still good, right? You can just go back to whatever school that you decided to take a leave of absence from . . . or just draw from your trust fund. But when you start a company and you're a black entrepreneur, in some cases there is no alternative. It's a much different experience." The vast majority of people don't have trust funds and family that can write $50,000 checks on a whim. Obviously in some communities that percent is 99.99% vs 99%, but we're still comparing economic class rather than race.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  >we're still comparing economic class rather than race. Then it's important to be truthful and realistic about the distribution of race across economic classes. "The vast majority" is not a statement of a number or percentage, and will be a different number whether you're talking about black people and white people, or Oregonians and Arkansans.
- deleted 12y ago
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- ajross 12y ago
  "Trust fund" is perhaps a bit spun. But if you look at it as a social class issue (yes, the quote says "black", but it sounds like a point about poverty to me), the truth is that an awful lot of young "software entrepreneurs" spend their time living at home: They walk about in their middle class neighborhoods with quality internet access, solid development hardware available on their parents' dime, quiet private bedrooms with nice furniture, and easy access to a private car when needed. Think of starting the next Facebook in an urban apartment where multiple siblings have to share the bedrooms and laptop and maybe the point will be clearer.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    I wish they would properly frame it as a social class issue. I try to read past it, but it still rankles when they present it as race. I didn't have it as hard as some kids do, but not every white kid has/had a trust fund, fast internet, fast computers...
OoTheNigerian 12y ago
As a black Nigerian (it's another level) that spent time this year in the valley, I have a different perspective I hope to elaborate more on in future. Empathy is going to be important in helping improve things and I believe successful minorities, in my case black (Nigerian) people have a better chance than a white person (without my circumstance) and should step up more. With my cold emails, it was easier for me to meet white people in tech than black people in tech when I spent 4 months there. There is a reason Indians no longer have this minority problem. I hope to write more elaborately about it soon. BTW, here is the main article. It's a great read http://www.fastcompany.com/3037933/the-visible-man http://www.fastcompany.com/3037933/the-visible-man
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
itchyouch 12y ago
"Right, and I want black people to be massively, undeniably successful..." Contextually, the sentiment of wanting black leadership to pave the way and inspire black youth that success is possible is a noble cause. However, this sentiment exists everywhere regardless of race, religion, sex. People are proud to identify with successful group identities. The elephant in the room to be tackled in the face of "diversity initiatives" is in the unspoken, unwritten, virtually-non-litigable personal biases. The interviewee touches on it with how individuals can get a culture pass (e.g. sharing a love for the same band). The reality is that ethnic diversity is not a priority and a real risk factor in the beginning of a startup. It is the last thing people are thinking about. The focus is on building a great, productive team with relationships that work. Unfortunately, black and white culture has typically not worked in concert with each other to build social synergies, thus not having the culture pass becomes the unspoken tipping weight. Of course, this cyclical cycle does not make for very virtuous feedback loops. Up till now, we end up with having predominantly black companies(FUBU,BET,Sean Jean) and predominantly white companies or predominantly black/hispanic/etc groups operating within white companies. Many examples of successful non-white minorities who have overcome the typical challenges of their respective races appear to have assimilated to being white as well. The real conversation to have as a society is to ask how can we blend the elements of black and white culture together such that being black or being white allows for a mixed team to be comfortable in their skin with each other? Getting more successful black engineers, black executives, black CEOs, etc sounds great in an interview, but in the presence of real biases, all we can hope for is many wildly successful black companies where the white kids goto Stanford then Google and the black kids goto the black Stanford and goto the black Google with a small sprinkling of whites and blacks in the respective institutions.
- dabockster 12y ago
  The other elephant in the room is the growing number of developers coming from working class families failing to enter the workforce because they don't meet the standard of someone who can afford to relocate every time their business doesn't do well. Many of my friends have failed to get programming jobs even with qualifications because they were almost always beat by someone who either went to a fancy school or had connections to money.
TulliusCicero 12y ago
> Let me tell you a story. We only had five Fellows in our first class at Code2040, but they were amazing. We had one Fellow who had a 4.7 out of a 5.0 GPA, was copresident of his school, varsity athlete at MIT. They went through the program and excelled. But when they interviewed at larger companies, they had to do these "whiteboard" interviews, where you're given a coding challenge and you go to the whiteboard and attack it. And our guys didn't get hired, right? They had never done a whiteboard interview. So, in that case, is there something wrong with the fellow, or is there something wrong with the interview process? Folks need to really understand what implicit biases they have. Until they do, the numbers aren't gonna change. Is he implying that the interview was biased because the coding camp didn't teach people about whiteboard interviews?
- itchyouch 12y ago
  Essentially. This is part of a culture pass he speaks about. If he were really exposed to the tech community, he would realize that whiteboard interviews tend to be pretty widespread.
  - yongjik 12y ago
    Erm, I'm not so sure about that. When I applied to Google the recruiter literally explained there will be whiteboard interviews. She even recommended a book about preparing for software interviews. (I think I read about half of the book.) It can be daunting if you never expected it, but whiteboard interviews are ubiquitous: you should be prepared except perhaps for your very first such interview. (And it shouldn't take more than two weeks or so. Just re-read the first half of, say, CLRS (or any algorithm textbook you should have studied before), and try solving a few of the problems on the whiteboard.)
- humanrebar 12y ago
  I think he's fairly explicitly stating that whiteboard reviews are probably bogus. I don't think that's too controversial of a position to hold these days. I think he's also saying that whiteboard interviews probably disadvantage people from atypical backgrounds. I think that's probable. I've seen people with good resumes struggle in whiteboard interviews due to what I guess are communication and confidence issues.
colmvp 12y ago
No mention of Hispanics or Asians on a topic about race?
nraynaud 12y ago
I'm slightly distraught by the idea that some companies in SV are choosing their candidates by the schools they went to. They are actively working against meritocracy.
- malandrew 12y ago
  Not necessarily if we assume that the schools themselves admitted candidates based on merit, which is a pretty safe assumption. The only attendance criteria that creates a bias against merit is affordability, but my understanding is that at the very top schools there is ample scholarship funding available for the underprivileged, such that finances should never be the reason for not attending if you are accepted.
  - nraynaud 12y ago
    merit is assessed on continuous basis, not one time when you were young. You have merit because you are good at taking test when you're under 18, and then you'll have it easy for life, doesn't sound like the american dream to me. Moreover those schools are balancing the number of full scholarships and the number of full tuitions for economical reasons, some people are there for their parent's money.
eLobato 12y ago
> It's frustrating. People are "big upping" each other because they look like each other. People are big upping each other because they are white. And if I big up somebody because they're black it's a problem somehow. [...] We have a similar skin tone, and in fact, I do want to support somebody who looks like me. I think that's a good thing. Let's encourage that. I don't see why that is frowned upon. I don't see why that's reverse racism. I'm really sorry but if you're 'big upping' anyone in any job because their skin tone matches yours, it is a big problem no matter the RGB of that tone. I'd be embarrassed every morning when I see my face in the mirror if I treated/hired some of my peers better just because they 'look like me'. Great article overall, but I cannot say I agree with this 'we take care of our people, you take care of your people' attitude. Whether in a minority (hint: I am) or in a privileged position, I believe you should treat everyone equally, reflect on how you've been doing so and try hard to overcome your biases. I'd love to hear other people's comments on this.
ivan_ah 12y ago
> Most students decide at a very young age whether or not they're good in math and science. Do they decide or are they told so on exams? Isn't being "good at math" just a function of how many math-knowledgeable adults surround you whom you could ask for help? Could educational technology (think books---not iPads) make "math help" more accessible and ultimately boost the percentage of "good in math" people to 100%?
- Cookingboy 12y ago
  "Isn't being "good at math" just a function of how many math-knowledgeable adults surround you whom you could ask for help?" That point is debatable, just like many different form of talents, different people do have different inherent interest and capability at learning certain set of skills, math is no different. Getting support and easy help can be crucial, but it's not the only bottleneck.
  - ivan_ah 12y ago
    I agree with you that everyone has a different "innate ability" for math, but I think the variations are much smaller compared to the average. In other words, there is a bell curve, but it isn't where you think it is: http://sigeneration.ca/images/Diagram2.png http://sigeneration.ca/images/Diagram2.png via http://www.sigeneration.ca/home/resources/jump-math/ http://www.sigeneration.ca/home/resources/jump-math/ > different inherent interest That's very true, and this is why it never made sense to me how all kids are pushed through a standardized progression of grades. What would be cool is if you can "focus" your studies on one area during one or two years of school, and then "catch up" on the subjects you left to the wayside.
malandrew 12y ago
There are many valid points they raise, but this one is pure malarkey: But when they interviewed at larger companies, they had to do these "whiteboard" interviews, where you're given a coding challenge and you go to the whiteboard and attack it. And our guys didn't get hired, right? They had never done a whiteboard interview. So, in that case, is there something wrong with the fellow, or is there something wrong with the interview process? I hate whiteboard interviews as much as the next person, but it's not like it's a secret that whiteboard interviews are standard practice, and pretty much everyone I know that is good at them became good at them the same way; they studied. It's pretty common advice everywhere on the internet that when you need to prepare for such interviews that you go grab yourself a copy of the well-regarded "Cracking the Code Interview" by Gayle McDowell or one of the other code interview prep books. Failing at a whiteboard code interview is not a race or gender thing. It's a failure to do some basic research on what to expect in the interview or a failure to spend the time preparing for what you're going to encounter in the interview process.
malandrew 12y ago
If you go to those five schools, the percentage of minorities and the percentage of women is X and Y. Let's say it's 3% and 10%. If those companies hire only 10% of the people they interview, then the number [of minority hires] you get is zero. Right? It's zero. And to the extent that they are unwilling to go outside of those five schools, it's going to stay zero. No, it's not zero, it should be a number that corresponds to 3% and 10%, respectively. Yes, those numbers suck, but it helps to get the math right. If the number is only 3% and 10% from those schools, then the problem starts at the funnel that feeds those schools [1]. More minorities and women need to apply to those schools, so that the percentage goes up. Should companies look beyond those five schools? Yes, but... I'm not going to speak for any other curriculums, but the truth is that most computer science curriculums in the US are absolute garbage. Many CS programs are just java schools [0]. What these companies have done is identified the schools whose programs have a reputation for not being java schools. Historically, you could figure out which programs are not java schools by looking for those that use books like SICP, K&R, CLRS, TaoCP, PAIP, AIMA, EOPL, the dragon book, etc. as the basis for their CS curriculum. If there are schools out there with a much greater percentage of minorities and women that use such books for foundational courses, then you should suggest those schools as places to recruit from. Simply put, the criteria for spending time, effort and money to recruit from other schools needs to be based primarily on the rigor of the curriculum, with demographics of the student body being a secondary goal. That all being said, a lot of the best software developers I've met that didn't go to those top schools didn't graduate with a degree in computer science at all. Pretty much all the others are auto-didacts. Assuming this is generalizable, the only actionable you can extract from it is not to recruit based on school at all. [0] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchool... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8593277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8593277 [2] FWIW, I didn't graduate from a top school (NCSU) and double majored in textile technology and apparel mgmt and psychology, so I'm not even advocating a position I myself gain from.
YesImBlack 12y ago
It becomes clearer and clearer when reading an article like this why black people have so many problems. This group of black "tech leaders" are full of bigotry and have severe victim mentality. Much of what they believe as fact isn't even the truth. Things will never improve in the black community as long as these attitudes prevail. Most blacks blame everyone but themselves. They don't take personal responsibility. This is really the issue. Sad how obvious it is, yet this PC country won't just stand up and say ENOUGH. No more handouts, work or starve. A pass is given to blacks on so many levels because of some non expiring slavery guilt card they incessantly use. Even blacks whose ancestors never even were slaves use the race card. Lower expectations of blacks combined with their willingness to accept such a thing is another reason they cannot succeed. Black immigrant comes to America today with nothing to his name. He sees a successful person and asks "how did that person get to where he is" after being told, he works hard and becomes successful himself. Black kids born in America today asks the same question and his (usually single) mom tells him. "Son, you have to be white to get there (your never going to amount to nothin)... or Mom says, "You have to study every day in school, get good grades, go to a university and study every day there, graduate, get an entry level job, and work, work, work your way up (pay your dues). Kid thinks for a second and says... Naw, ill just be a pro athlete if that doesn't work out I will make it big selling drugs or pimping, that sounds a lot less boring. These two scenarios are what I have heard directly in 25 years as a career counselor working with thousands of blacks. Blacks continue to embrace a culture and attitude of failure in this country. Black culture in America is just that. Why not leave that behind?

60 points by crdr88 12y ago

"I have a slightly different view. In the report that Google published, they said they've spent roughly $40 million on diversity efforts over the past 10 years. They've spent, I'll guess, several hundreds of millions of dollars in the past two years on self-driving cars. If companies like Google truly wanted to solve this problem, they'd spend more than $40 million over 10 years and make a much more significant effort. So my conclusion is that right now we actually don't want to solve it." Stunningly frank observation, dumping money into a project that will never see the light of day. Ah, Google.

chroma 12y ago
These priorities seem sane to me. Vehicles kill over a million people every year. Self-driving cars can drastically reduce that number.
- a_gentle_autist 12y ago
  Ones that get to market, like those from Mercedes, VW, Tesla. Google's car tech, and software, will never be adopted by an auto manufacturer. And Google will never sell cars.
  - kenrikm 12y ago
    They may just buy Uber (they are a big investor) and run their own fleet.. Lets not forget Google also has Google Shopping Express and their mapping cars.. making those self driving could be a huge thing for Google. Example: Shopping express car drives up, opens a compartment you retrieve your box and it drives off. Uber drives up you get in, it brings you to your destination you get out, no driver required.
  - swashboon 12y ago
    I am wondering why you think that Google technologies will never be adopted. From what I have seen of the industry there is a good chance they will be adopted. Google also does not have to sell cars to consumers, it could modify cars to sell a service.
    - bduerst 12y ago
      That seems like the more appropriate market approach, right? Cars are these large depreciating assets that spend 22 hours a day doing nothing, save for that one long road trip vacation you take. Factor out driver salaries and driver insurance, you should save money with an on-demand fleet vs. making payments on your own vehicle.
bduerst 12y ago
This falls to the classic Hume's Guillotine (is-ought problem). It's very easy to speculate about what someone should be doing vs. what is actually needed, what is being done, and the network effects of both.
- kenrikm 12y ago
  I think getting more minorities in STEM from an early age (K12) would be a good start.
  - danilocampos 12y ago
    This is called the pipeline fallacy and ignores that companies hire at dramatically lower rates (0%-2% for blacks, 2%-3% for latinos) than there are graduates (4%-8%, depending on your source) for a given underrepresented background
    - meowface 12y ago
      Lower rates than there are graduates or than there are applicants to each company? Given the former, there are still numerous potential explanations for why this could be the case, none of which necessarily involve bias or discrimination on the part of the companies or hiring staff.
  - meowface 12y ago
    I agree, but in many cases there's not that much most companies can do about this. Do all the initiatives you want and raise as much money as you like, you're not going to somehow overhaul an entire culture (in family life, in schools, among peers) in a few years.

a_gentle_autist 12y ago

Some choice quotes: "So even for a mid-level or lower-level engineer, they'll tell us, "I only want someone who went to Stanford," or someone who has started a company before." "And most companies in Silicon Valley say, "We hire from these five schools, period," right?" "If you go to those five schools, the percentage of minorities and the percentage of women is X and Y. Let's say it's 3% and 10%. If those companies hire only 10% of the people they interview, then the number [of minority hires] you get is zero. Right? It's zero." Absolutely revolting.

api 12y ago
"We hire from these five schools, period," right?" I'm so glad they brought this up. This is the elephant in the living room, and is a root cause behind a lot of these issues. The "top ten universities" fetish is by far the most significant mechanism for the perpetuation of aristocracy and aristocratic networks in our society. It's a effectively a feudal system of "knighthood," or at least analogous to that. Those who are admitted to top tier universities are tapped to be at least considered as future members of the nobility. I'd love to see some real data on employee (and founder) performance vs. where they went to school.
- a_gentle_autist 12y ago
  Here's what I've noticed. There's no correlation. It doesn't mean anything. It's a position taken out of fear. At this point, if you've graduated from top ten universities I will ignore your resume, because you won't have the hunger I want from an employee, nor where you have great creative thinking.
  - api 12y ago
    That's been my suspicion for some time too. "Nobody ever got fired for hiring someone from Stanford."
    - jacquesm 12y ago
      I've hired a fair number of people, college educated (UK top schools), 1 from a top tier US university and a whole scala of other levels of education, all the way to none. My experience (which is very limited) was that the people that were less educated had more drive because they were given a chance but the people that had a degree of education that was generally perceived as higher were more productive even without that level of drive and the quality of their output was generally higher. This is probably not surprising but with very few exceptions that seemed to be the rule (and those exceptions were totally off the scale).

epicureanideal 12y ago

I don't mean to diminish the point they're making in the article at all, but there are some parts that jump out... "And imagine that the worst happens, that your startup fails. You're still good, right? You can just go back to whatever school that you decided to take a leave of absence from . . . or just draw from your trust fund. But when you start a company and you're a black entrepreneur, in some cases there is no alternative. It's a much different experience." The vast majority of people don't have trust funds and family that can write $50,000 checks on a whim. Obviously in some communities that percent is 99.99% vs 99%, but we're still comparing economic class rather than race.

pessimizer 12y ago
>we're still comparing economic class rather than race. Then it's important to be truthful and realistic about the distribution of race across economic classes. "The vast majority" is not a statement of a number or percentage, and will be a different number whether you're talking about black people and white people, or Oregonians and Arkansans.
deleted 12y ago
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ajross 12y ago
"Trust fund" is perhaps a bit spun. But if you look at it as a social class issue (yes, the quote says "black", but it sounds like a point about poverty to me), the truth is that an awful lot of young "software entrepreneurs" spend their time living at home: They walk about in their middle class neighborhoods with quality internet access, solid development hardware available on their parents' dime, quiet private bedrooms with nice furniture, and easy access to a private car when needed. Think of starting the next Facebook in an urban apartment where multiple siblings have to share the bedrooms and laptop and maybe the point will be clearer.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  I wish they would properly frame it as a social class issue. I try to read past it, but it still rankles when they present it as race. I didn't have it as hard as some kids do, but not every white kid has/had a trust fund, fast internet, fast computers...

OoTheNigerian 12y ago

As a black Nigerian (it's another level) that spent time this year in the valley, I have a different perspective I hope to elaborate more on in future. Empathy is going to be important in helping improve things and I believe successful minorities, in my case black (Nigerian) people have a better chance than a white person (without my circumstance) and should step up more. With my cold emails, it was easier for me to meet white people in tech than black people in tech when I spent 4 months there. There is a reason Indians no longer have this minority problem. I hope to write more elaborately about it soon. BTW, here is the main article. It's a great read http://www.fastcompany.com/3037933/the-visible-man http://www.fastcompany.com/3037933/the-visible-man

deleted 12y ago
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itchyouch 12y ago

"Right, and I want black people to be massively, undeniably successful..." Contextually, the sentiment of wanting black leadership to pave the way and inspire black youth that success is possible is a noble cause. However, this sentiment exists everywhere regardless of race, religion, sex. People are proud to identify with successful group identities. The elephant in the room to be tackled in the face of "diversity initiatives" is in the unspoken, unwritten, virtually-non-litigable personal biases. The interviewee touches on it with how individuals can get a culture pass (e.g. sharing a love for the same band). The reality is that ethnic diversity is not a priority and a real risk factor in the beginning of a startup. It is the last thing people are thinking about. The focus is on building a great, productive team with relationships that work. Unfortunately, black and white culture has typically not worked in concert with each other to build social synergies, thus not having the culture pass becomes the unspoken tipping weight. Of course, this cyclical cycle does not make for very virtuous feedback loops. Up till now, we end up with having predominantly black companies(FUBU,BET,Sean Jean) and predominantly white companies or predominantly black/hispanic/etc groups operating within white companies. Many examples of successful non-white minorities who have overcome the typical challenges of their respective races appear to have assimilated to being white as well. The real conversation to have as a society is to ask how can we blend the elements of black and white culture together such that being black or being white allows for a mixed team to be comfortable in their skin with each other? Getting more successful black engineers, black executives, black CEOs, etc sounds great in an interview, but in the presence of real biases, all we can hope for is many wildly successful black companies where the white kids goto Stanford then Google and the black kids goto the black Stanford and goto the black Google with a small sprinkling of whites and blacks in the respective institutions.

dabockster 12y ago
The other elephant in the room is the growing number of developers coming from working class families failing to enter the workforce because they don't meet the standard of someone who can afford to relocate every time their business doesn't do well. Many of my friends have failed to get programming jobs even with qualifications because they were almost always beat by someone who either went to a fancy school or had connections to money.

TulliusCicero 12y ago

> Let me tell you a story. We only had five Fellows in our first class at Code2040, but they were amazing. We had one Fellow who had a 4.7 out of a 5.0 GPA, was copresident of his school, varsity athlete at MIT. They went through the program and excelled. But when they interviewed at larger companies, they had to do these "whiteboard" interviews, where you're given a coding challenge and you go to the whiteboard and attack it. And our guys didn't get hired, right? They had never done a whiteboard interview. So, in that case, is there something wrong with the fellow, or is there something wrong with the interview process? Folks need to really understand what implicit biases they have. Until they do, the numbers aren't gonna change. Is he implying that the interview was biased because the coding camp didn't teach people about whiteboard interviews?

itchyouch 12y ago
Essentially. This is part of a culture pass he speaks about. If he were really exposed to the tech community, he would realize that whiteboard interviews tend to be pretty widespread.
- yongjik 12y ago
  Erm, I'm not so sure about that. When I applied to Google the recruiter literally explained there will be whiteboard interviews. She even recommended a book about preparing for software interviews. (I think I read about half of the book.) It can be daunting if you never expected it, but whiteboard interviews are ubiquitous: you should be prepared except perhaps for your very first such interview. (And it shouldn't take more than two weeks or so. Just re-read the first half of, say, CLRS (or any algorithm textbook you should have studied before), and try solving a few of the problems on the whiteboard.)
humanrebar 12y ago
I think he's fairly explicitly stating that whiteboard reviews are probably bogus. I don't think that's too controversial of a position to hold these days. I think he's also saying that whiteboard interviews probably disadvantage people from atypical backgrounds. I think that's probable. I've seen people with good resumes struggle in whiteboard interviews due to what I guess are communication and confidence issues.

colmvp 12y ago

No mention of Hispanics or Asians on a topic about race?

nraynaud 12y ago

I'm slightly distraught by the idea that some companies in SV are choosing their candidates by the schools they went to. They are actively working against meritocracy.

malandrew 12y ago
Not necessarily if we assume that the schools themselves admitted candidates based on merit, which is a pretty safe assumption. The only attendance criteria that creates a bias against merit is affordability, but my understanding is that at the very top schools there is ample scholarship funding available for the underprivileged, such that finances should never be the reason for not attending if you are accepted.
- nraynaud 12y ago
  merit is assessed on continuous basis, not one time when you were young. You have merit because you are good at taking test when you're under 18, and then you'll have it easy for life, doesn't sound like the american dream to me. Moreover those schools are balancing the number of full scholarships and the number of full tuitions for economical reasons, some people are there for their parent's money.

eLobato 12y ago

> It's frustrating. People are "big upping" each other because they look like each other. People are big upping each other because they are white. And if I big up somebody because they're black it's a problem somehow. [...] We have a similar skin tone, and in fact, I do want to support somebody who looks like me. I think that's a good thing. Let's encourage that. I don't see why that is frowned upon. I don't see why that's reverse racism. I'm really sorry but if you're 'big upping' anyone in any job because their skin tone matches yours, it is a big problem no matter the RGB of that tone. I'd be embarrassed every morning when I see my face in the mirror if I treated/hired some of my peers better just because they 'look like me'. Great article overall, but I cannot say I agree with this 'we take care of our people, you take care of your people' attitude. Whether in a minority (hint: I am) or in a privileged position, I believe you should treat everyone equally, reflect on how you've been doing so and try hard to overcome your biases. I'd love to hear other people's comments on this.

ivan_ah 12y ago

> Most students decide at a very young age whether or not they're good in math and science. Do they decide or are they told so on exams? Isn't being "good at math" just a function of how many math-knowledgeable adults surround you whom you could ask for help? Could educational technology (think books---not iPads) make "math help" more accessible and ultimately boost the percentage of "good in math" people to 100%?

Cookingboy 12y ago
"Isn't being "good at math" just a function of how many math-knowledgeable adults surround you whom you could ask for help?" That point is debatable, just like many different form of talents, different people do have different inherent interest and capability at learning certain set of skills, math is no different. Getting support and easy help can be crucial, but it's not the only bottleneck.
- ivan_ah 12y ago
  I agree with you that everyone has a different "innate ability" for math, but I think the variations are much smaller compared to the average. In other words, there is a bell curve, but it isn't where you think it is: http://sigeneration.ca/images/Diagram2.png http://sigeneration.ca/images/Diagram2.png via http://www.sigeneration.ca/home/resources/jump-math/ http://www.sigeneration.ca/home/resources/jump-math/ > different inherent interest That's very true, and this is why it never made sense to me how all kids are pushed through a standardized progression of grades. What would be cool is if you can "focus" your studies on one area during one or two years of school, and then "catch up" on the subjects you left to the wayside.

malandrew 12y ago

There are many valid points they raise, but this one is pure malarkey: But when they interviewed at larger companies, they had to do these "whiteboard" interviews, where you're given a coding challenge and you go to the whiteboard and attack it. And our guys didn't get hired, right? They had never done a whiteboard interview. So, in that case, is there something wrong with the fellow, or is there something wrong with the interview process? I hate whiteboard interviews as much as the next person, but it's not like it's a secret that whiteboard interviews are standard practice, and pretty much everyone I know that is good at them became good at them the same way; they studied. It's pretty common advice everywhere on the internet that when you need to prepare for such interviews that you go grab yourself a copy of the well-regarded "Cracking the Code Interview" by Gayle McDowell or one of the other code interview prep books. Failing at a whiteboard code interview is not a race or gender thing. It's a failure to do some basic research on what to expect in the interview or a failure to spend the time preparing for what you're going to encounter in the interview process.

malandrew 12y ago

If you go to those five schools, the percentage of minorities and the percentage of women is X and Y. Let's say it's 3% and 10%. If those companies hire only 10% of the people they interview, then the number [of minority hires] you get is zero. Right? It's zero. And to the extent that they are unwilling to go outside of those five schools, it's going to stay zero. No, it's not zero, it should be a number that corresponds to 3% and 10%, respectively. Yes, those numbers suck, but it helps to get the math right. If the number is only 3% and 10% from those schools, then the problem starts at the funnel that feeds those schools [1]. More minorities and women need to apply to those schools, so that the percentage goes up. Should companies look beyond those five schools? Yes, but... I'm not going to speak for any other curriculums, but the truth is that most computer science curriculums in the US are absolute garbage. Many CS programs are just java schools [0]. What these companies have done is identified the schools whose programs have a reputation for not being java schools. Historically, you could figure out which programs are not java schools by looking for those that use books like SICP, K&R, CLRS, TaoCP, PAIP, AIMA, EOPL, the dragon book, etc. as the basis for their CS curriculum. If there are schools out there with a much greater percentage of minorities and women that use such books for foundational courses, then you should suggest those schools as places to recruit from. Simply put, the criteria for spending time, effort and money to recruit from other schools needs to be based primarily on the rigor of the curriculum, with demographics of the student body being a secondary goal. That all being said, a lot of the best software developers I've met that didn't go to those top schools didn't graduate with a degree in computer science at all. Pretty much all the others are auto-didacts. Assuming this is generalizable, the only actionable you can extract from it is not to recruit based on school at all. [0] http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchool... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8593277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8593277 [2] FWIW, I didn't graduate from a top school (NCSU) and double majored in textile technology and apparel mgmt and psychology, so I'm not even advocating a position I myself gain from.

YesImBlack 12y ago

It becomes clearer and clearer when reading an article like this why black people have so many problems. This group of black "tech leaders" are full of bigotry and have severe victim mentality. Much of what they believe as fact isn't even the truth. Things will never improve in the black community as long as these attitudes prevail. Most blacks blame everyone but themselves. They don't take personal responsibility. This is really the issue. Sad how obvious it is, yet this PC country won't just stand up and say ENOUGH. No more handouts, work or starve. A pass is given to blacks on so many levels because of some non expiring slavery guilt card they incessantly use. Even blacks whose ancestors never even were slaves use the race card. Lower expectations of blacks combined with their willingness to accept such a thing is another reason they cannot succeed. Black immigrant comes to America today with nothing to his name. He sees a successful person and asks "how did that person get to where he is" after being told, he works hard and becomes successful himself. Black kids born in America today asks the same question and his (usually single) mom tells him. "Son, you have to be white to get there (your never going to amount to nothin)... or Mom says, "You have to study every day in school, get good grades, go to a university and study every day there, graduate, get an entry level job, and work, work, work your way up (pay your dues). Kid thinks for a second and says... Naw, ill just be a pro athlete if that doesn't work out I will make it big selling drugs or pimping, that sounds a lot less boring. These two scenarios are what I have heard directly in 25 years as a career counselor working with thousands of blacks. Blacks continue to embrace a culture and attitude of failure in this country. Black culture in America is just that. Why not leave that behind?