11 ms·

I am not American (feel free to ignore my opinion) but this is just a bad joke from someone who seems to be an utmost failure. Especially in light of last week

• untog 12y ago
  Please don't complain about downvotes, it just makes people downvote you more. And I suspect the reason you're being downvoted in the first place is that the TC post is about net neutrality and not government spying. While the two are connected (they both involve the internet, after all) they're different topics. If we refuse net neutrality until we also disband the NSA then we'll just lose on two counts.
  • eps 12y ago
    > Please don't complain about downvotes, it just makes people downvote you more. No, of course it doesn't. And, no, there's nothing wrong with complaining about the downvotes as there' heck of a lot of knee-jerk downvoting happening on HN. Almost as much as righteous preaching about proper HN "etiquette", but not as damaging in the long run.
    • deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    • ctdonath 12y ago
      HN FAQ: Resist complaining about being downmodded. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
      • NO_FAQ 12y ago
        Quoting the FAQ also makes for some boring reading.
    • deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    • waterlesscloud 12y ago
      I can't speak for others, but personally I specifically and intentionally downvote any complaint about downvotes, even if I otherwise agree with the poster. That sort of complaining lowers the tone of the discussion and adds nothing. Plus 8 times out of 10, just wait a minute and you'll get voted back up.
    • deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
• xpose2000 12y ago
  I'm not sure where you are going with this. Classifying the internet as a utility is a huge step towards net neutrality. This is what we want.
  • Shivetya 12y ago
    however it is quite possible it will encumber providers and such with all sorts of new rules, forced compliance, etc. Forced compliance, as in "You are a utility and all such utilities must comply with NSA/CIA/FBI/ABC requirements" Maybe they will be brand it under some title like "Internet Bill of Rights" and watch as people don't read the fine print. All I know is, if I waited for the regulated utility known as the phone company to have provided me with faster internet, let alone a good phone connection during a thunderstorm, it would never have happened without competition.
    • dragonwriter 12y ago
      > Forced compliance, as in "You are a utility and all such utilities must comply with NSA/CIA/FBI/ABC requirements" We have that now, without net neutrality.
      • VLM 12y ago
        At the federal level more so than state/local. The feds have had free access to everything for a long time, what you're likely to see after utility conversion is the local cops demanding access to all ebay/CL traffic for an entire city to track down stolen property fences or similar actions. Give me a list of everyone in my district who ever bought lockpicks or lockpicking stuff.
    • chipgap98 12y ago
      While I agree that there could be such rules that accompany a reclassification of the internet as a utility, net neutrality is what so many people have been pushing for. Yes there could be unwanted side-effects of such a classification, we have to cross that bridge when we get to it.
    • 12y ago
• noobermin 12y ago
  At least give him credit for doing one right thing, I think that's fair.
  • adventured 12y ago
    He waited six years to make this rather limp statement of obviousness. And he waited until he was a lame duck President, that just lost the Senate. Meanwhile, in the passing of those six years the US has continued to fall further behind on fixed broadband speeds and ISP competitiveness.
    • noobermin 12y ago
      Which especially makes it better that he finally has done it. He deserves criticism and his motives deserve criticism, but I'm just happy that he decided to support it after all.
• nkozyra 12y ago
  It's entirely possible that the notions of surveillance (and the egregious examples of that which have come from the top-down in this country) and net neutrality can be evaluated independently of each other, particularly because they are dissonant concepts.
  • yc1010 12y ago
    He calls for "Free and Open Internet" An internet where all traffic is closely monitored, recorded and data-mined is not free and open in my books.
    • KobaQ 12y ago
      Actually it is free and open. It's not private, however. The internet was never a private place and it will never be. Edit: It's important that we don't loose the freedom and openness. That's what the discussion is all about. Not about the lack of privacy.
    • nkozyra 12y ago
      Sounds too free and open by your qualms
• ablesable 12y ago
  I am an American and I agree with your bad joke assessment. It's rather depressing to see my fellow citizens fall for these jokes over and over again, all the while losing their rights, even their right to privacy.
  • KobaQ 12y ago
    Agencies have been spying forever. From opening letters to eavesdroping phone calls. I'm not saying it's right, just that the agencies have not become worse with time. However, I totally agree with you when you're concerned about the diminishing privacy. I think the advance of technology is the key factor for this. Agencies are as ruthless as always and use this new technologies. Most people are totally fine to tell Google, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, etc. everything about their private lifes in exchange to ... distraction. Think of all the health shit ... they gonna make furtunes selling our data to the pharma and insurrance industry.
• wylee 12y ago
  I'm not a huge fan of Obama, but do you really think the surveillance state was created during his presidency? This type of thing has been going on... well, probably forever. It's gotten more sophisticated in the Internet age, but that started before Obama too.
  • ctdonath 12y ago
    It wasn't created under him, but now is his opportunity to do something positive about it. His track record on the subject hasn't been good for the last 6 years; here's hoping the next 2 will prove substantially better.
  • yequalsx 12y ago
    It did not start with Obama and by all accounts it was not stopped, slowed or in any way diminished by him. I think the backlash is from people who thought he'd be different and embrace a different mindset than the one he apparently has. He was a constitutional law professor and the hope that he'd be different than what he is was quite a let down.
  • cryoshon 12y ago
    Compare the Bush-era level of surveillance intrusiveness with the Obama-era level. You'll find that what Bush started, Obama has drastically developed, distributed, and expanded. Under Bush we had increasing levels of surveillance which were undesirable, but the veneer that it was still all about terrorism could at least be believed. Now, we know it's targeted specifically at us for the purposes of exploitation and domination of us.
    • shitehawk 12y ago
      >the veneer that it was still all about terrorism could at least be believed. Now, we know it's targeted specifically at us for the purposes of exploitation and domination of us. The great thing about hyperbole is that it rebuts itself.
      • cryoshon 12y ago
• raldi 12y ago
  Complaining about downvotes? That's an automatic downvote.
• revscat 12y ago
  Let me explain a few things about the American government. The most important thing to understand is that the ability of the executive to influence the direction of the government is limited. The reasons for this are several, but I will try to elucidate a few here. First, it is commonly believed that because of the ability to hire/fire people the President can more or less do whatever he wants in regards to the direction of various governmental agencies. This true to an extent, but to a much more limited extent than is commonly believed. The President can nominate candidates for various positions, but these positions must be approved by Congress. Since President Obama has had a Congress whose primary tactic is to oppose everything the president wants, regardless of merits, this has severely limited his ability to get policies in place that he has otherwise wanted. This applies both to agencies like the FCC (the current chairman was Obama's third choice, IIRC; the other two were filibustered), as well as the judiciary. Second, the government itself is made up largely of agencies which are outside of the ability of the democracy to affect. This includes the military, the intelligence agencies, and the federal law enforcement agencies. (You could arguably include the Federal Reserve here, as well.) These are what Lofgren[1] calls the "Deep State". They are almost completely unaffected by elections, especially of Democratic presidents, and seek ever to increase their power and funding. Efforts to rein them in are rarely, if ever, successful. Third, the current state of affairs re: intelligence gathering, etc., began in earnest with the passage of the National Security Act of 1947.[2] So while it may be convenient to blame Obama for the current state of government, it is overly simplistic. It has nothing to do with any cult of personality, but rather a simple recognition of the current realities of political power and the various players. [1] http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/ http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/ [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_of_1947 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_of_1947
  • 300bps 12y ago
    The President can nominate candidates for various positions, but these positions must be approved by Congress. President Obama was inaugurated January 20, 2009. At that time, his Democratic party controlled both houses of Congress decisively[1]. It was not until 2011 that his party lost the house. And in fact, his party still retains the Senate but will lose it in January 2015. But it is only the Senate that approves appointments and his party has controlled it the entire time he has been President. And if you look at the make up of his cabinet, you will see that he has been able to fill it with people that are reviled by the opposing party [2]. To say that he hasn't gotten his way on the vast majority of cabinet appointments just isn't true. Second, the government itself is made up largely of agencies which are outside of the ability of the democracy to affect. This includes the military The President is the Commander in Chief of the military. He exercises complete authority over them. [3] All the heads of the other agencies you listed are appointed by the President including the Federal Reserve. Your comment is typical of the current rhetoric surrounding attempting to "debunk" the thought that the President has substantial power. The fact is the President does have substantial power and saying otherwise is merely attempting to excuse the performance of Obama that so many people are disappointed with. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_States_Congresses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_divisions_of_United_State... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_the_United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_the_United_States [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander-in-chief#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander-in-chief#United_State...
• chasing 12y ago
  > The Stasi would be proud of the surveillance state that western countries have created with Obama at the helm. Spoken like someone with little sense of historical perspective. Or understanding of the DDR.
  • ablesable 12y ago
    http://falkvinge.net/2013/07/05/stasi-vs-the-u-s-nsa-back-to-back-whos-worse-and-by-how-much/ http://falkvinge.net/2013/07/05/stasi-vs-the-u-s-nsa-back-to...
    • chasing 12y ago
      I'm not sure comparing the size of the filing cabinets of the Stasi and the NSA is particularly helpful in understanding the differences between those two organizations.
      • ablesable 12y ago
        The only difference is that the Stasi didn't have the tech available to them that the NSA has.
        • jobposter1234 12y ago
          Well, plus the culture of informing on your fellow citizens at large scale (10-20% of German citizens were active informers...) ... or the German citizens killed by the Stasi... Do you really think the only difference between the Stasi and the NSA is the technology available?
          • ablesable 12y ago
            Absolutely. The mindsets of spy masters never changes, no matter the era or country.
            • jobposter1234 12y ago
• bovermyer 12y ago
  I'm not going to ignore your opinion as a result of your not being American; I'd say that foreign perspective is very useful in such discussions. I do however take issue with the ad hominem attack on the President. It's not necessary, nor constructive, to lay down a blanket criticism like "[he's] an utmost failure." The "surveillance state" does exist, but it's a global phenomenon. In the US, at least, it's something that we're actively fighting, and the government is not shutting down dissenting opinions. The same cannot be said for countries like China, where the government's control depends heavily on the citizenry not questioning it.
  • mhluongo 12y ago
    You set a high bar.
  • mindcrime 12y ago
    In the US, at least, it's something that we're actively fighting Are we really, thought? At least at any meaningful scale? A handful of geeks on HN, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter and Slashdot isn't much of a resistance. Do you perceive that people who care about this issue have mobilized in sufficient quantity and enthusiasm to do something meaningful, like influence election outcomes? It's good that at least some of us care, but just chattering with each other here probably isn't going to accomplish much.
• deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
• lern_too_spel 12y ago
  "Under his watch the surveillance state has expanded and has become downright creepy" According to Snowden's documents, several mass collection programs shut down under his watch (including email header collection), and no new mass collection programs were added.
• KobaQ 12y ago
  > this is just a bad joke Would you prefer Obama to call for a closed internet? You are confusing different things. Just because someone might be wrong with a lot of things doesn't mean he's not allowed to be right with something else. As other's said: The world wide wrongdoing by the secret agencies is no invention of Obama. Not even an invention of the US. I'm German and even the BND did whatever it could to gain for it's purpose useful information. They did under governments of all kind of political orientation. And then you're confusing things again. The downvotes most likely come from your indifferentiated opinion about net neutrality and spying activities. Not from your dislike of Obama. > I am not American (feel free to ignore my opinion) Why did you post it?
• zobzu 12y ago
  You're saying obama is responsible for everything - which is not as everything was there before him - and complain when he publicly asks to fix some of the most important issues... Then complain some more about some cult of personality and compare him as worst than the nazi regime.. Then complain about downvote. Theres some interesting things to discuss regarding the validity of obamas actions but that doesnt seem to be the best way to start that debate ;)
• internet_arguer 12y ago
  > edit: Oh i see the cult of personality is still strong in this one, downvoted in under a minute. Translated: "If you disagree with me, you're a stooge for the cult of personality." What an effective way to make your position to be unassailable!
• freshflowers 12y ago
  For the rest of the Western world, the Obama administration has been the worst thing to happen to a free and open internet in the past two decades. I see all kinds of American apologists in this thread, but the fact is that regardless of what it inherited, this particular administration has of its own volition pursued an aggressive anti-freedom and anti-privacy agenda both on behalf of its own intelligence agencies, its tech industry and its copyright exploitation industry. The fact that this president dares to call for a free and open internet disgusts me.