17 ms·

I lived and worked in Japan for a few years and can vouch for everything the author said. I worked in the game industry in Japan and the salaries were terrible

I lived and worked in Japan for a few years and can vouch for everything the author said. I worked in the game industry in Japan and the salaries were terrible. Salaries were half or less compared to California, while the cost of living in Tokyo was similar (at least back then, it could easily be more expensive in the Bay Area now). I ended up leaving my job to do consulting from home for clients both in Japan and abroad and more than doubled my income. Living abroad was a a great experience though. The process of studying a new language and using it in day to day life successfully was incredibly satisfying. I'd love to do that again in another country.

12423gsd 12y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if in the US salaries drop in the coming decade. CS classes are incredibly impacted and universities are churning out students. Sure the quality of your average graduate is plummeting too, but that's never completely factored-in when you apply to a job
- hcho 12y ago
  I would be very surprised if it did. The problem has never been the number of people who can do the job, but who's willing to do the job.
- antimora 12y ago
  Most CS students at my universities were international students for the past 15 years. Even if all were to stay in the US, the immigration laws for foreign are designed to protect the US jobs. So unless the laws and demand for workers change, I doubt salaries would drop.
- HillRat 12y ago
  Actually, the number of CS and Engineering degrees as a percentage of all awarded degrees hasn't appreciably changed -- 8.1%, slightly up over the past several years but still significantly below the ~9% average of the 1990s and 1985's high-water mark of 14.1%. With CS-related employment growing at twice the projected job growth average, I don't see the modest number of CS grads negatively affecting sector wage growth.
- Kiro 12y ago
  I read somewhere that the demand for engineers increases by 18% every year while the supply output only increases by 2%.
euske 12y ago
As a Japanese programmer who's terribly paid according to the many American fellow programmers, I have to defend this practice. Why an engineer has to be paid, say, like three times than janitors? Because of the markets. Not because their job is inherently more noble than the lowly paid ones; they're equally contributing to the society. But what if the market is set up in a way that both salaries are roughly equalized? This is somewhat how the Japanese salary system works, and I believe this is The Better Way. I believe people are better off in a more egalitarian society. I'm not claiming that Japan is anywhere close to that overall, but as long as the salary goes I think this is a saner system. (I also worked in a US corp, and hated their salary gap.)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- gwern 12y ago
  If, as a programmer, you are not contributing much more value to the world than a janitor, you are doing something terribly terribly wrong. (And I say this as someone who has worked two janitorial jobs.)
  - jaredklewis 12y ago
    Janitors keep places clean so programmers can focus on programming and thus "contribute to society." Assuming programmers are doing some good, not cleaning their own office lets them do more of it. In this way I think janitors can contribute significantly. But I think the more important point is that contribution to society is always a team effort, not an individual thing. Any contribution you make is in part thanks to your parents, teachers, co-workers, janitors, and so on. They deserve some credit.
    - linuxydave 12y ago
      I have no idea why people hate janitors so much. They do their job so you can do yours better. It's a very simple concept.
  - 12y ago
rtpg 12y ago
One thing concerning cost of living: Tokyo is definitely way less expensive than San Francisco now. Unless you're trying to live 5 minutes away from Roppongi or something, there's loads of affordable apartments and the like (no comments on houses).
- shawnps 12y ago
  I agree with this. I moved from SF to Tokyo 2 years ago, and for almost the exact same price as my studio apartment in downtown SF, which was tiny and the bathroom was covered in mold, I have an apartment about 15-20 mins out of Shinjuku in a building that was brand new when I moved in. I was also pleasantly surprised at the cost and quality of food here, although some of my coworkers who moved here from different countries (South Africa, for example) have complained that it's too expensive. My bills are also less expensive, and the quality of the services are better. Internet for example is very fast and reliable, and costs me about half the price as Comcast did in SF.

12423gsd 12y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if in the US salaries drop in the coming decade. CS classes are incredibly impacted and universities are churning out students. Sure the quality of your average graduate is plummeting too, but that's never completely factored-in when you apply to a job

hcho 12y ago
I would be very surprised if it did. The problem has never been the number of people who can do the job, but who's willing to do the job.
antimora 12y ago
Most CS students at my universities were international students for the past 15 years. Even if all were to stay in the US, the immigration laws for foreign are designed to protect the US jobs. So unless the laws and demand for workers change, I doubt salaries would drop.
HillRat 12y ago
Actually, the number of CS and Engineering degrees as a percentage of all awarded degrees hasn't appreciably changed -- 8.1%, slightly up over the past several years but still significantly below the ~9% average of the 1990s and 1985's high-water mark of 14.1%. With CS-related employment growing at twice the projected job growth average, I don't see the modest number of CS grads negatively affecting sector wage growth.
Kiro 12y ago
I read somewhere that the demand for engineers increases by 18% every year while the supply output only increases by 2%.

euske 12y ago

As a Japanese programmer who's terribly paid according to the many American fellow programmers, I have to defend this practice. Why an engineer has to be paid, say, like three times than janitors? Because of the markets. Not because their job is inherently more noble than the lowly paid ones; they're equally contributing to the society. But what if the market is set up in a way that both salaries are roughly equalized? This is somewhat how the Japanese salary system works, and I believe this is The Better Way. I believe people are better off in a more egalitarian society. I'm not claiming that Japan is anywhere close to that overall, but as long as the salary goes I think this is a saner system. (I also worked in a US corp, and hated their salary gap.)

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
gwern 12y ago
If, as a programmer, you are not contributing much more value to the world than a janitor, you are doing something terribly terribly wrong. (And I say this as someone who has worked two janitorial jobs.)
- jaredklewis 12y ago
  Janitors keep places clean so programmers can focus on programming and thus "contribute to society." Assuming programmers are doing some good, not cleaning their own office lets them do more of it. In this way I think janitors can contribute significantly. But I think the more important point is that contribution to society is always a team effort, not an individual thing. Any contribution you make is in part thanks to your parents, teachers, co-workers, janitors, and so on. They deserve some credit.
  - linuxydave 12y ago
    I have no idea why people hate janitors so much. They do their job so you can do yours better. It's a very simple concept.
- 12y ago

rtpg 12y ago

One thing concerning cost of living: Tokyo is definitely way less expensive than San Francisco now. Unless you're trying to live 5 minutes away from Roppongi or something, there's loads of affordable apartments and the like (no comments on houses).

shawnps 12y ago
I agree with this. I moved from SF to Tokyo 2 years ago, and for almost the exact same price as my studio apartment in downtown SF, which was tiny and the bathroom was covered in mold, I have an apartment about 15-20 mins out of Shinjuku in a building that was brand new when I moved in. I was also pleasantly surprised at the cost and quality of food here, although some of my coworkers who moved here from different countries (South Africa, for example) have complained that it's too expensive. My bills are also less expensive, and the quality of the services are better. Internet for example is very fast and reliable, and costs me about half the price as Comcast did in SF.