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Right now, the problem of "Representative democracy simply doesn't scale" worries me a whole lot less than "the politicization [and polarization] of absolutely

Right now, the problem of "Representative democracy simply doesn't scale" worries me a whole lot less than "the politicization [and polarization] of absolutely everything": http://www.vox.com/2014/11/1/7136343/gamergate-and-the-politicization-of-absolutely-everything http://www.vox.com/2014/11/1/7136343/gamergate-and-the-polit... I worry that letting people delegate their vote to their favorite outspoken political ideologue would make things even worse, because it would give those people real and direct power. Imagine Rush Limbaugh having the power to vote on behalf of millions of people.

ahomescu1 12y ago
> Imagine Rush Limbaugh having the power to vote on behalf of millions of people. If his vote is identical to what they'd vote on their own, what difference does it make?
- haberman 12y ago
  I think that vesting direct power in him would likely lead to personality-driven polarization, where people who can't stomach him would be inclined to give their vote to whoever sticks it to him most forcefully. Or other sensationalistic and dramatic storylines, amplified by the media.
  - ahomescu1 12y ago
    > I think that vesting direct power in him would likely lead to personality-driven polarization That sounds exactly like the current system. A lot of people voted for/against Obama/Bush for similar reasons.
    - haberman 12y ago
      Sure but Rush Limbaugh is far more extreme and polarizing than Bush. He could never actually win a primary. But under the proposed system you don't need to. There's also not the barrier of having to actually be a politician. Someone could make a YouTube video arguing why everyone else is an idiot and they are the only person you should trust with your vote, and the next day have incredible amounts of political power. For example, if this system were in place right now, how many pro/anti-GamerGate ideologues would overnight go from nothing to having thousands or millions of votes?
BruceIV 12y ago
This. At least in a representative democracy the ideologues with the huge media reach are generally not the same people who are actually making the laws.
patcon 12y ago
Here's what i say: Good. Bring it. I want our collective ignorance to shine, so we can confront it head-on as the destructive force that it is. Representative democracy was put in place when regular people were presumably MUCH more ignorant. And giving citizens power through proxy likely spurred us to become more aware as citizenry. But I imagine it was pretty jarring at first. Delegative democracy puts us in uncomfortable territory yet again, and I think that's a good thing.
- 3rd3 12y ago
  It seems however that informing is generally slower than populismusm, so there might be an increased probability that things go wild. That might actually be an advantage of the slowness of current democracies. Maybe one could add some sort of artificial deceleration and decentralization mechanism to a Liquid Democracy to counteract this problem.
- haberman 12y ago
  > I want our collective ignorance to shine Ok, I present to you: Anti-vax: http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/21/4767530/vaccine-deniers-inside-the-dumb-dangerous-new-fad http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/21/4767530/vaccine-deniers-i... Climate change denial: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial Anti-GMO: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/are_gmo_foods_safe_opponents_are_skewing_the_science_to_scare_people_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201... Creation Science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_science > so we can confront it head-on as the destructive force that it is. That hasn't been working so well...
  - patcon 12y ago
    I find none of those overly concerning in practice, at least not to the degree that they reflect poorly on delegative democracy. - http://www.gallup.com/poll/168620/one-four-solidly-skeptical-global-warming.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/168620/one-four-solidly-skeptical... - http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/mid/1508/articleId/1483/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/Default.aspx http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/... - http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intel...
nichtich 12y ago
The problem is we (actually you, since I'm not a US citizen) elect one set of people to vote on our behaves for everything. If we can delegate to different people on different issues, then it'll be very different. The whole notion of party politics may even break down.

ahomescu1 12y ago

> Imagine Rush Limbaugh having the power to vote on behalf of millions of people. If his vote is identical to what they'd vote on their own, what difference does it make?

haberman 12y ago
I think that vesting direct power in him would likely lead to personality-driven polarization, where people who can't stomach him would be inclined to give their vote to whoever sticks it to him most forcefully. Or other sensationalistic and dramatic storylines, amplified by the media.
- ahomescu1 12y ago
  > I think that vesting direct power in him would likely lead to personality-driven polarization That sounds exactly like the current system. A lot of people voted for/against Obama/Bush for similar reasons.
  - haberman 12y ago
    Sure but Rush Limbaugh is far more extreme and polarizing than Bush. He could never actually win a primary. But under the proposed system you don't need to. There's also not the barrier of having to actually be a politician. Someone could make a YouTube video arguing why everyone else is an idiot and they are the only person you should trust with your vote, and the next day have incredible amounts of political power. For example, if this system were in place right now, how many pro/anti-GamerGate ideologues would overnight go from nothing to having thousands or millions of votes?

BruceIV 12y ago

This. At least in a representative democracy the ideologues with the huge media reach are generally not the same people who are actually making the laws.

patcon 12y ago

Here's what i say: Good. Bring it. I want our collective ignorance to shine, so we can confront it head-on as the destructive force that it is. Representative democracy was put in place when regular people were presumably MUCH more ignorant. And giving citizens power through proxy likely spurred us to become more aware as citizenry. But I imagine it was pretty jarring at first. Delegative democracy puts us in uncomfortable territory yet again, and I think that's a good thing.

3rd3 12y ago
It seems however that informing is generally slower than populismusm, so there might be an increased probability that things go wild. That might actually be an advantage of the slowness of current democracies. Maybe one could add some sort of artificial deceleration and decentralization mechanism to a Liquid Democracy to counteract this problem.
haberman 12y ago
> I want our collective ignorance to shine Ok, I present to you: Anti-vax: http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/21/4767530/vaccine-deniers-inside-the-dumb-dangerous-new-fad http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/21/4767530/vaccine-deniers-i... Climate change denial: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial Anti-GMO: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/are_gmo_foods_safe_opponents_are_skewing_the_science_to_scare_people_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/201... Creation Science: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_science http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_science > so we can confront it head-on as the destructive force that it is. That hasn't been working so well...
- patcon 12y ago
  I find none of those overly concerning in practice, at least not to the degree that they reflect poorly on delegative democracy. - http://www.gallup.com/poll/168620/one-four-solidly-skeptical-global-warming.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/168620/one-four-solidly-skeptical... - http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/mid/1508/articleId/1483/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/Default.aspx http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/... - http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intelligent-design.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/evolution-creationism-intel...

nichtich 12y ago

The problem is we (actually you, since I'm not a US citizen) elect one set of people to vote on our behaves for everything. If we can delegate to different people on different issues, then it'll be very different. The whole notion of party politics may even break down.