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I think it's disingenuous to immediately turn the conversation from understanding the author's situation to talking about your own, including whether diversity

by kaitai 12y ago

I think it's disingenuous to immediately turn the conversation from understanding the author's situation to talking about your own, including whether diversity is your problem. The author doesn't say it's your problem or ask you to do anything about it, and most of the conversation here on HN is currently about understanding the piece (including the parts where she says she is making an effort to work on making tech a better place for black women). I appreciate the discussion of the piece and wish we could stay on that topic.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
I think it's disingenuous to chastise people for sharing their own experiences and feelings as not being "genuine." This is why it is so hard to have reasonable productive (thought-changing) conversations about diversity since anyone who isn't obviously different immediately gets shut down as not possibly being able to "get it."
- kaitai 12y ago
  I didn't say anything about being genuine; I think omonra's first comment was quite topical and I have no reason to think it wasn't genuine. The second comment started counting the instances of racism, pegging at 1 in 12 years and so diminishing the stories recounted, and then saying "I'm not sure it's other (ie not black, not women, etc) people's responsibility to attract more people like her to the job" and asking "How is it my problem?" Omonra's contributed experiences are definitely useful, including the part where he says he doesn't expect to be surrounded by "his people" at work. It's the changing of the topic to "How is it my problem?" that I would like to avoid, because in general I find that the reason that it's hard to have productive conversations about diversity. Perhaps we should just spend the time to listen to each other's stories before we launch into, "Why should I care?" or "What about me?"
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    It is a question that can be answered directly. Really, there should be no wrong questions, just wrong answers. Shutting down the question doesn't buy any good will, you simply need not respond to it if you don't feel like it is worth answering. Discussing these topics are always quite nerve racking, just like the complexity of the problem itself (much easier to deal with computer problems than people problems). I mean, I know you mean well, but more patience would be useful.
  - omonra 12y ago
    Let me try to address your point. I agree that actually saying "How is it my problem" comes across antagonistic which wasn't my intent. Here is what I meant. In the conversation about 'diversity' in tech today we really are talking about lack of black/hispanic individuals & women. So these are the three 'qualified' groups whose feeling of isolation at work is really discussed (and if a person fits two categories - double the points). My point is that there are potentially many more (say infinitely more) individuals who may feel isolated and out of place. For example: Old people Immigrants Lovers of opera Extremely tall / short / fat people etc So anybody really who feels they don't fit it has the right to say 'There is lack of diversity with regards to X and I shouldn't change - we need to have more of X around so I feel comfortable'. How would you respond if your coworker said "I'm a 55yo Scandinavian who loves opera and I feel like I don't fit in. Therefore I feel it's the responsibility of [company / society] to get more senior Scandinavian opera lovers in the field so I am comfortable"? But somehow since the 3 groups in question are seen as disadvantaged we feel that the conversation is legitimate.

by kaitai 12y ago

seanmcdirmid 12y ago

I think it's disingenuous to chastise people for sharing their own experiences and feelings as not being "genuine." This is why it is so hard to have reasonable productive (thought-changing) conversations about diversity since anyone who isn't obviously different immediately gets shut down as not possibly being able to "get it."

kaitai 12y ago
I didn't say anything about being genuine; I think omonra's first comment was quite topical and I have no reason to think it wasn't genuine. The second comment started counting the instances of racism, pegging at 1 in 12 years and so diminishing the stories recounted, and then saying "I'm not sure it's other (ie not black, not women, etc) people's responsibility to attract more people like her to the job" and asking "How is it my problem?" Omonra's contributed experiences are definitely useful, including the part where he says he doesn't expect to be surrounded by "his people" at work. It's the changing of the topic to "How is it my problem?" that I would like to avoid, because in general I find that the reason that it's hard to have productive conversations about diversity. Perhaps we should just spend the time to listen to each other's stories before we launch into, "Why should I care?" or "What about me?"
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  It is a question that can be answered directly. Really, there should be no wrong questions, just wrong answers. Shutting down the question doesn't buy any good will, you simply need not respond to it if you don't feel like it is worth answering. Discussing these topics are always quite nerve racking, just like the complexity of the problem itself (much easier to deal with computer problems than people problems). I mean, I know you mean well, but more patience would be useful.
- omonra 12y ago
  Let me try to address your point. I agree that actually saying "How is it my problem" comes across antagonistic which wasn't my intent. Here is what I meant. In the conversation about 'diversity' in tech today we really are talking about lack of black/hispanic individuals & women. So these are the three 'qualified' groups whose feeling of isolation at work is really discussed (and if a person fits two categories - double the points). My point is that there are potentially many more (say infinitely more) individuals who may feel isolated and out of place. For example: Old people Immigrants Lovers of opera Extremely tall / short / fat people etc So anybody really who feels they don't fit it has the right to say 'There is lack of diversity with regards to X and I shouldn't change - we need to have more of X around so I feel comfortable'. How would you respond if your coworker said "I'm a 55yo Scandinavian who loves opera and I feel like I don't fit in. Therefore I feel it's the responsibility of [company / society] to get more senior Scandinavian opera lovers in the field so I am comfortable"? But somehow since the 3 groups in question are seen as disadvantaged we feel that the conversation is legitimate.