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How much of a problem is using Tesla vehicles in cold climates these days? I recall adverse battery performance as a result being up for discussion a while ago.

by kmfrk 12y ago

josefresco 12y ago
Every car maker tests models in cold weather climates. Even car makers with electric models. In fact I've seen video footage of a Tesla driving around in frozen conditions...it was boring, but that was the point- it just worked. I do think cold weather operation has some trade-offs, but I don't think it's enough to impede sales in cold climates.
- jfb 12y ago
  I think the point is that cold weather imposes different trade-offs on a pure electric than it does on a conventional car. This is largely expressed in decreased range -- but then again, an IC engine will also be less efficient in Winnipeg than LA.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    > I think the point is that cold weather imposes different trade-offs on a pure electric than it does on a conventional car. This is largely expressed in decreased range -- but then again, an IC engine will also be less efficient in Winnipeg than LA. I don't know if that's necessarily true. Doesn't the Carnot equation imply that it's the difference between engine temperature and ambient that helps determine efficiency? Eg, a 100° engine running in 100° ambient is inefficient, but a 100° running in 200° or in 0° will be equally efficient?
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      > I don't know if that's necessarily true It's not necessarily true, but it happens to be true.
      - scott_karana 12y ago
        Though you are correct, it would have been nice to at least present an explanation. I was asking a legitimate question. This would have helped, for example: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml
        seanflyon 12y ago
        I apologize if my tone implied that your question was illegitimate. I thought that someone reading your comment might think that IC engines do not lose efficiency in low temperatures. I wanted to make it clear that in fact they do, but that they don't fundamentally have to. I did not present an explanation because I did not know the correct explanation (thanks for that link).
comboy 12y ago
I don't own one, but they recently added some cold climate pack on their ordering page, so I guess they are taking that into account. Especially that Netherlands is/was their second biggest client.
- mikeash 12y ago
  The cold climate option just adds extra seat heaters and wiper defrosters and such accessories. It doesn't impact the fundamental troubles with the battery and such. The Model S battery pack has an active heating and cooling system, so it avoids a lot of the problems that batteries have in the cold. The main trouble it has is that it needs to expend some energy to warm up the battery pack, meaning that you lose some range when starting cold. Secondary trouble is that cabin heating isn't free the way it is with gas cars, which also costs some range. If you're plugged in, you can mitigate these problems by telling the car to warm up in advance, which will heat both the cabin and the battery using mains electricity, saving the battery for driving. If you're not plugged in or just forget to heat the car in advance, everything still works, you'll just lose some range. I think you mean Norway rather than Netherlands there, and Tesla is apparently hugely popular there. Whatever trouble it has in cold weather can't be too bad.
parasubvert 12y ago
Consumer reports managed to get 175 miles out of a 85 kWh model on a brisk (30-45 F) day, with an overnight stay unplugged at 30F. I think they had about 180 miles total on that one. http://consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/winter-chills-limit-range-of-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car/index.htm http://consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/winter-chills-li... We have another one of a guy in Norway driving 233 miles on a single charge. http://www.treehugger.com/cars/can-electric-car-handle-cold-weather-man-drove-hundreds-of-miles-around-norway.html http://www.treehugger.com/cars/can-electric-car-handle-cold-... And for extremes, a guy on the Tesla forums that drove around 163 miles on a 175 mile charge in -31 to -40F weather, including a cold soak for several hours. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/35144-Extreme-cold-weather-in-Canada-s-North http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/35144-Extreme-... This is consistent with most reports about cold weather - you'll get around 200 miles on a charge, with much depending on whether your car is plugged in when idle (it needs to keep the battery pack warm, which uses up juice).

How much of a problem is using Tesla vehicles in cold climates these days? I recall adverse battery performance as a result being up for discussion a while ago.

by kmfrk 12y ago

How much of a problem is using Tesla vehicles in cold climates these days? I recall adverse battery performance as a result being up for discussion a while ago.

josefresco 12y ago

Every car maker tests models in cold weather climates. Even car makers with electric models. In fact I've seen video footage of a Tesla driving around in frozen conditions...it was boring, but that was the point- it just worked. I do think cold weather operation has some trade-offs, but I don't think it's enough to impede sales in cold climates.

jfb 12y ago
I think the point is that cold weather imposes different trade-offs on a pure electric than it does on a conventional car. This is largely expressed in decreased range -- but then again, an IC engine will also be less efficient in Winnipeg than LA.
- scott_karana 12y ago
  > I think the point is that cold weather imposes different trade-offs on a pure electric than it does on a conventional car. This is largely expressed in decreased range -- but then again, an IC engine will also be less efficient in Winnipeg than LA. I don't know if that's necessarily true. Doesn't the Carnot equation imply that it's the difference between engine temperature and ambient that helps determine efficiency? Eg, a 100° engine running in 100° ambient is inefficient, but a 100° running in 200° or in 0° will be equally efficient?
  - seanflyon 12y ago
    > I don't know if that's necessarily true It's not necessarily true, but it happens to be true.
    - scott_karana 12y ago
      Though you are correct, it would have been nice to at least present an explanation. I was asking a legitimate question. This would have helped, for example: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml
      - seanflyon 12y ago
        I apologize if my tone implied that your question was illegitimate. I thought that someone reading your comment might think that IC engines do not lose efficiency in low temperatures. I wanted to make it clear that in fact they do, but that they don't fundamentally have to. I did not present an explanation because I did not know the correct explanation (thanks for that link).

comboy 12y ago

I don't own one, but they recently added some cold climate pack on their ordering page, so I guess they are taking that into account. Especially that Netherlands is/was their second biggest client.

mikeash 12y ago
The cold climate option just adds extra seat heaters and wiper defrosters and such accessories. It doesn't impact the fundamental troubles with the battery and such. The Model S battery pack has an active heating and cooling system, so it avoids a lot of the problems that batteries have in the cold. The main trouble it has is that it needs to expend some energy to warm up the battery pack, meaning that you lose some range when starting cold. Secondary trouble is that cabin heating isn't free the way it is with gas cars, which also costs some range. If you're plugged in, you can mitigate these problems by telling the car to warm up in advance, which will heat both the cabin and the battery using mains electricity, saving the battery for driving. If you're not plugged in or just forget to heat the car in advance, everything still works, you'll just lose some range. I think you mean Norway rather than Netherlands there, and Tesla is apparently hugely popular there. Whatever trouble it has in cold weather can't be too bad.

parasubvert 12y ago

Consumer reports managed to get 175 miles out of a 85 kWh model on a brisk (30-45 F) day, with an overnight stay unplugged at 30F. I think they had about 180 miles total on that one. http://consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/winter-chills-limit-range-of-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car/index.htm http://consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/winter-chills-li... We have another one of a guy in Norway driving 233 miles on a single charge. http://www.treehugger.com/cars/can-electric-car-handle-cold-weather-man-drove-hundreds-of-miles-around-norway.html http://www.treehugger.com/cars/can-electric-car-handle-cold-... And for extremes, a guy on the Tesla forums that drove around 163 miles on a 175 mile charge in -31 to -40F weather, including a cold soak for several hours. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/35144-Extreme-cold-weather-in-Canada-s-North http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/35144-Extreme-... This is consistent with most reports about cold weather - you'll get around 200 miles on a charge, with much depending on whether your car is plugged in when idle (it needs to keep the battery pack warm, which uses up juice).