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2015 Tesla Model S P85D First Test

187 points by mountaineer 12y ago

sbierwagen 12y ago
It consists of long-range radar, a single forward-looking video camera, and 12 ultrasonic sensors to create a 16-foot bubble around the car providing lane-keeping, full drogue- chute emergency stopping, and autonomous following in stop- and-go traffic. It has long-range radar, a single forward- looking video camera, and 12 ultrasonic sensors that create a 16-foot bubble around the car to allow for lane-keeping, full drogue-chute emergency stopping, and autonomous following in stop-and-go traffic. Whoops.
lispm 12y ago
The typical Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Audi will easily get past it on the Autobahn. At 250 km/h the battery will be empty quite fast...
- gambiting 12y ago
  I love the autobahn. I travel on it frequently while doing business in EU, and there's something special about travelling at 200-250km/h(120-150mph) without any problems. But I am afraid you will not find a lot of sympathy from other HN readers - the autobahn is such an exception in today's world, that for vast majority of people it's really not important how a car drives at 120mph+. That makes me sad personally, but rationally autobahn driving is not a major component of any discussion.
  - lispm 12y ago
    > that for vast majority of people it's really not important how a car drives at 120mph+ That's why Tesla increased max speed for the new model to 250 km/h? > That makes me sad personally, but rationally autobahn driving is not a major component of any discussion. 'Rationally driving' is not a part of any discussion of a car in this class. Nobody needs such environmentally unfriendly cars like a Tesla S or the cars of the German brands...
    - gambiting 12y ago
      Well, the first one is mostly a bragging right, and also something that some clients will use on closed circuits, so it's not completely meaningless. And I didn't say anything about rational driving. I said that rationally, since only a very tiny minority of people in the world can experience driving on the autobahn, autobahn driving is most probably not very important point of discussions for majority of people in the world.
      - lispm 12y ago
        > and also something that some clients will use on closed circuits, a tiny microscopic minority > I said that rationally, since only a very tiny minority of people in the world can experience driving on the autobahn, The amount of people who can experience driving a Tesla is much much smaller. > autobahn driving is most probably not very important point of discussions for majority of people in the world. Well, here in Germany a lot of people use the Autobahn. I see lots of people from Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Austria, ... using it. I bet that a lot of people buying a Tesla in France will try it on the German Autobahn. They won't get very far with it, though.
        gambiting 12y ago
        >>a tiny microscopic minority Yeah, that's what I said. >>The amount of people who can experience driving a Tesla is much much smaller. So is the number of people who buy S-Klasse AMG...your point? >>Well, here in Germany a lot of people use the Autobahn. I see lots of people from France, Poland, Denmark, Austria, ... using it Yep, I am not German and I use it too(thank you for it). Even if you added all Germans, Austrians, British and Poles together it's still going to be "only" a couple hundred million people. And most of them are not interested in going that fast on the Autobahn. When I drive through Germany there's plenty of people driving in the fast lane going 200km/h or faster, but there is even more "regular" people in "regular" cars going at 130km/h. In fact I don't know what (and even if) we are arguing about. Tesla is awesome. And I would love to take it on the autobahn.
    - mikeash 12y ago
- masklinn 12y ago
  > At 250 km/h the battery will be empty quite fast… Then again, the typical high-performance sedan doesn't have much range either at 250km/h. At that speed, a 3-series will burn through 30L/100km and they have a 60L tank. A 5-series has a 70L tank but I don't know how much fuel it goes through at 250. I don't expect significantly better efficiency though.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - lispm 12y ago
    A Tesla S was tested at constant 120 km/h to reach 184 km. An Audi would reach 1000km. How far does a Tesla go at 200km/h? 100km? Less?
ck2 12y ago
When is the Model X shipping? I can't afford either but if I am going to have a fantasy car I want the X http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx#modelx-rotator-spin http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx#modelx-rotator-spin
- warrenmiller 12y ago
  Fall 2015
  - ck2 12y ago
    I know that is what it says but wouldn't they have to be demo-ing the X by now for mass manufacturing to be happening and completed by then?
    - rdl 12y ago
      Model X P85D would be a pretty solid Cayenne-killer.
    - scott_karana 12y ago
      I agree! Where are the spy shots? I haven't seen "boo".
ISL 12y ago
The 3.1 second 0-60 time is the equivalent of a 0-60 distance of 136 feet. That's impressive in comparison with the 113-foot 60-0 stopping distance. The car is only 20% slower speeding up than it is slowing down. One wonders what they could do in 0-60 and 60-0 times if the tires were replaced with gears and the road with a geared track. It only takes 250' of track, less than a football field, to find out. Put another way, this four-door sedan reaches 60 mph when it's made it to the 45-yard line of an american football field.
- Cthulhu_ 12y ago
  Has that ever been done? I can imagine it'd just skip out of the gears and crash horribly. You know, like square wheels. Fitting warmed-up soft slicks and doing it on an F1 track or specialized tarmac would probably yield better results.
  - ISL 12y ago
    Looks like 5000-feet-per-minute gearing was possible in 1922 [1]. Doing it with a linear track will be harder, but I don't think it's impossible. [1] http://books.google.com/books?id=GPNKAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA87&ots=m3CfdTTlEs&dq=5000%20feet%20per%20minute%20gear&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q=5000%20feet%20per%20minute%20gear&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=GPNKAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA87&ots=m...
  - mox1 12y ago
    I think the torque output would probably break internal drive train components as soon as you hit the accelerator on a gear type setup (you also cant use the back tires for output, it will flip the car over). You actually want / need some tire flex to absorb the initial torque. This is especially true with electric motors, where 100% of the torque shows up instantly (gas engines have a torque curve) Watch a NHRA funny car start in slow motion. The big fat back tires actually wrinkle up into themselves a lot, then spring back out[1]. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8vf0QiK5TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8vf0QiK5TQ
    - cc438 12y ago
danbee 12y ago
"email-instant reflexes" < This isn't the compliment I think they were going for!
- josefresco 12y ago
  I also cringed when I read that - although I don't think "social media-instant reflexes" would be an improvement.
- RankingMember 12y ago
  Haha, I thought the same thing, like "what email service has this guy been using?". When they brought the comparison around to the Pony Express it made more sense.
mkaufmann 12y ago
Impressive acceleration time! The new record for accelerating from 0-100 km/h of only 1.785 seconds was just set a few days ago[1]. The car required less than 30 meters to accelerate to this speed. Of course it was only a prototype car but still impressive to see the limits. [1]https://www.ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-news/news/2014/11/Grimsel_bricht_Weltrekord.html https://www.ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-news/news/2014/11...
- masklinn 12y ago
  The current non-prototype (/production car) record holder is the 918 Spyder with 2.2s (and a slightly higher base MSRP of $845000)
  - coldpie 12y ago
    Although they're already sold out, so you'll have to pick one up on the used market. ;)
    - giarc 12y ago
      And that used price will most definitely be increasing as a 918 recently burnt up. http://ca.autoblog.com/2014/09/29/porsche-918-spdyer-update-gas-station-fire-burned-pics-gallery-video-michael-wekerle-wek/ http://ca.autoblog.com/2014/09/29/porsche-918-spdyer-update-...
  - m3Lith 12y ago
    And, for reference, top fuel dragsters can do 0-100 km/h in like ~0.3s.
    - masklinn 12y ago
      Hence the emphasis on production cars, once you get into special racing or one-offs it's meaningless: you can just strap a soon-to-be-dismantled body on a rocket sled and launch it at 50+G.
zaroth 12y ago
Just $11,000 in frosting. Right... What I want to know is where are they taking $40k off of the price to make a sedan that a larger percentage can own. I love the quote about 100 changes. Constant innovation. Do any of the hardware upgrades flow into the field? Is the chassis modular enough to bother upgrading?
- gutnor 12y ago
  Selling a few high end car (Porsche) and selling a mass-market car (VW, Ford) are vastly different businesses. Boutique style pampering you get today when buying a Tesla does not scale, or at least not easily. For example, online buying, Tesla shop, even the SuperCharger network would need to scale dramatically. They could do it, like Apple. But with this news and the opening of their patent sooner, I'm just wondering if they are not simply giving up on the mass market leaving it to generalist brands like Toyota, VW, ... IMO that would not be so bad, they risk to devaluate their brand significantly in the mass market if they fuck up there and fucking up there has a not much to do with technology. ( after all, brand like Toyota have Lexus counterpart just for the purpose of splitting luxury from mass market ) edit: as suggested s/specialist/generalist.
  - afarrell 12y ago
    s/specialist/generalist. Unless you are using a different definition for those words, I don't know why you would call Toyota a specialist brand relative to Tesla.
    - gutnor 12y ago
      "specialist in the mass market" I meant, but yeah "generalist" is definitively better.
      - afarrell 12y ago
        Just a guess: did your brain think "someone with expertise in the mass market" and then shorten "someone with experience" to "specialist"?
gambiting 12y ago
I said this before but I will say it again - I will happily pay money for a chrome plugin which allows for automatic conversion of every imperial unit into SI unit on any website visited. Or maybe a built-in JS script which does it depending on where you visit the page from(or a toggle on the top).
- VLM 12y ago
  With proper sig figs please, 60 MPH is 100 KMH not journalist style 96.56064 KMH.
- lectrick 12y ago
  https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autoconvert-auto-currency/pbghjbbdfkjffaalmcfgelakmeckapnd?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autoconvert-auto-c... That may do the job
  - gambiting 12y ago
    Oh my god. This is it - fantastic plugin. Thank you!
- aredington 12y ago
  Similar tool available for Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/converter/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/converter/ Just started using it, happy to be able to excise that bit of pervasive ignorance from my life.
moconnor 12y ago
I think a motoring review of an electric car that doesn't feel the need to mention range or recharging problems marks a significant shift in public perception of EVs.
masklinn 12y ago
For what it's worth, the relevant Wikipedia page[0] lists the P85D as #24 on the list of fastest-accelerating production cars, far behind e.g. the 911GT3, Aventador, McLaren P1 or the ridiculous 918 Spyder's 2.2. It is however listed as the fastest-accelerating sedan/non-supercar, a hair's breadth in front of the Audi RS7 and the Mercedes E63AMG's 3.2. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars...
- GFischer 12y ago
  Interestingly enough, it's priced similarly to both the RS7 and the E63 AMG.
chrisBob 12y ago
My favorite part of the article is the comments at the bottom about how the sucker buying a Dodge Charger will have to pay for gas. I had a friend a few years ago who bought a $15,000 BMW motorcycle to save gas money 4 months a year in New York, and now you can go one better: buy a $120,000 car and then leach off of the supercharger network. I love Teslas, but buy one because it is an amazing luxury car with an AWD option, not because it is the best financial decision.
- josefresco 12y ago
  The Charger is an odd comparison, but it would be fun to race an R/T AWD against one of these. I don't think the Charger would even compete but I'm curious if the financial aspect would be the same when factoring in gas/maintenance/value etc.
- Igglyboo 12y ago
  The all electric engine is important in the long run but the people who are currently buying teslas aren't the people who care about gas prices.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    I don't know about that. I see quite a few people talking about buying one, or actually buying one, and the savings in gas is a big part of it. It may sound crazy, but it makes sense for people who would spend that much on a car anyway, and who drive a lot. If you're debating between a Tesla and a Corolla then the gas savings doesn't matter much. If you're debating between a Tesla and a similarly-priced BMW and you drive a lot, saving several thousand dollars a year in gasoline can be nice. People who spend a lot of money on cars don't suddenly not want to save money.
- giarc 12y ago
  I believe there was a link on HN awhile ago from a guy that did a very in-depth analysis of cost of ownership. I believe the Tesla actually did come out on top of comparable vehicles due to lower fuel costs, lower maintenance costs etc. I'll try to find the link. EDIT Here is the link http://www.teslacost.com/ http://www.teslacost.com/ The creator has since updated the figures after HN members noticed some errors and the Honda Odyssey came out on top (unless you are able quantify safety, HOV access etc).
kmfrk 12y ago
How much of a problem is using Tesla vehicles in cold climates these days? I recall adverse battery performance as a result being up for discussion a while ago.
- josefresco 12y ago
  Every car maker tests models in cold weather climates. Even car makers with electric models. In fact I've seen video footage of a Tesla driving around in frozen conditions...it was boring, but that was the point- it just worked. I do think cold weather operation has some trade-offs, but I don't think it's enough to impede sales in cold climates.
  - jfb 12y ago
    I think the point is that cold weather imposes different trade-offs on a pure electric than it does on a conventional car. This is largely expressed in decreased range -- but then again, an IC engine will also be less efficient in Winnipeg than LA.
    - scott_karana 12y ago
      > I think the point is that cold weather imposes different trade-offs on a pure electric than it does on a conventional car. This is largely expressed in decreased range -- but then again, an IC engine will also be less efficient in Winnipeg than LA. I don't know if that's necessarily true. Doesn't the Carnot equation imply that it's the difference between engine temperature and ambient that helps determine efficiency? Eg, a 100° engine running in 100° ambient is inefficient, but a 100° running in 200° or in 0° will be equally efficient?
      - seanflyon 12y ago
        > I don't know if that's necessarily true It's not necessarily true, but it happens to be true.
        12y ago
josefresco 12y ago
I don't think the average consumer understands or appreciate how Tesla is different. I often talk with family members about Musk and Tesla and most don't really get what's so different than say another all-electric car. For example this: "During a chat with Musk at the P85D's introduction, he mentioned that on average, Tesla implements about 20 modifications to the car per week. Not software, mind you, but actual hard parts. Per week." I'm sure traditional car makers tweak hardware as well, but it seems Tesla's focus on software-esque hardware iteration is unique. Their willingness to push updates constantly breaks from the "mid-cycle" refresh and small year-over-year iterations commonplace amongst all established automakers. And this: "Lift the front trunk's lid (the frunk, they call it), and you're struck by how much all of this was anticipated back when the Model S was penned. What was a recessed cavity near the firewall becomes the new forward engine room with enough left to swallow a duffle bag and retain its terrific 5-star frontal crash performance." This is not just a scrappy startup car maker just getting by with an acceptable but not brilliant first generation product. You get the feeling that Tesla is always three steps ahead yet are confident enough to reveal them one-at-a-time.
- chiph 12y ago
  > Tesla implements about 20 modifications to the car per week Traditional car makers do slipstream changes into their cars, but this is just crazy. Think of the service challenges, and the parts catalog challenges. Not to mention the cost of all those different parts. "Oh, your's was made the fifth week of August, so you need a different bracket. We don't keep those in stock because they're all different. Here's a service loaner and we'll call you when it's done."
  - Recoil42 12y ago
    It's a bit misleading of a conclusion to make, because most of those changes likely aren't non-compatible changes. For instance, maybe a chip goes out of manufacturing, and they can no longer get it supplied, but a successor product from the same supplier meets all the same requirements. Perhaps a bracket goes out of manufacture, but an almost identical bracket is sourced from a different supplier. This would qualify as a hardware modification, but is a non-breaking change.
mrfusion 12y ago
offshot topic, from reading the stats at the end of the article: How are cars with higher city than highway milage not violating conservation of energy? I've heard the explanation that regenerative braking in city driving recharges the battery, but surely it's still better to not brake at all, right? You must incur some loss recharging the battery from kinetic energy?
- jcampbell1 12y ago
  Lower speeds mean lower air resistance. City fuel economy should be higher than highway if braking energy is recovered at a high enough efficiency.
  - mrfusion 12y ago
    Good point. So really the best milage would be going a constant but lower speed? Like 50MPH?
    - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
      Seems like it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-efficient_driving#Maintaining_an_efficient_speed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-efficient_driving#Mainta...
    - mikeash 12y ago
      Yep. Don't confuse "highway" for "best". My Prius v is rated at 44 city and 40 highway. If I drive it for extended periods on back roads (i.e. mostly around 55MPH) I can easily get 60+MPG. Optimal speed for any given car will vary depending on the engine, the gearing, and other such things, but typical highway speeds are usually beyond it. This is especially true with hybrids, which can reduce or eliminate a lot of the efficiency losses that normal cars suffer from at lower speeds.
      - blisterpeanuts 12y ago
        That's remarkable. My Prius V (2013) gets about 49 mpg when I drive 55 MPH on smooth, level roads. A couple of times I've hit 50 mpg. Also, I frequent the Prius Chat forum and I've never heard of anyone getting 60+ mpg. Have you modified your vehicle? Is it a plug-in?
RankingMember 12y ago
Every time I read a Tesla article like this I feel like I'm dreaming. Actual, usable, daily-driven electric cars with performance comparable to dino-powered cars were talked about as being vaporware for the longest time. It's amazing to see this company keep moving. That said, I can't wait to see their "everyman" offering, whenever that arrives. I could see them making it a sub-brand so that they could scale down the service to make it financially feasible (and so the rich could still feel like big shots when they say "I've got a Tesla" without people thinking they mean the everyman car).
- zarkov99 12y ago
  I have an S already and am also looking forward to the III. I am not worried about the brand loosing value by producing an everyday car and I do not know any other owners that are. I hope Tesla doesn't go for those cheap gimmicks and just continues to focus on engineering excellence. I do hope they can maintain their level of service as well. I think they will. The S is already a fairly reliable car and electric cars are fundamentally more reliable that their gas counterparts and by the time the III comes out Tesla will have improved their QA further.
slipangel 12y ago
As an auto enthusiast, I generally feel "yucky" after surveying the comments and feedback following a Tesla press release. C&D and MotorTrend generally bias hard for anything American made, which is fine and par for the course. My discomfort comes from the feeling that journalists are making the Model S out to be a competitive alternative to a high performance automobile, which it is not. A Model S can't make a single lap in anger around Mazda Raceway without the software putting it in limp mode to prevent heat build up from causing permanent damage. A half-day jaunt through twisty mountain roads is absolutely out of the question. It is a car that can drag race from a stop, hit a freeway on-ramp with some gusto, and give you carbon-free credentials the rest of the time. No one shopping for an M3, 911, or AMG product who actually intends to use them for their performance is cross-shopping a Model S as a like-for-like option, but the press consistently paints the picture that Tesla is a gas-free alternative or even superior to current offerings. I don't intend to degrade what it is, because it is a marvel of modern business, politics, and a little engineering that this car exists. I simply feel gross when I see how much hype puts it up for the Model S being something it isn't.
- umsm 12y ago
  I don't own a high-performance car and have never driven a Model S, but to me this car is truly unique in it's category. You can't compare the Model S with gas-powered engines that had many decades to be refined. Considering everything, the Model S appears to have made a larger jump than any other car in recent history. It's not designed to be raced on a track, but it does give you an edge in some situations where any other EV or most gas powered vehicles won't.
  - TrainedMonkey 12y ago
    That is precisely his point, you can't, but all the reviews do.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    Electric motors predate the internal combustion engine, keep in mind.
DENIKUTA 12y ago
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187 points by mountaineer 12y ago

It consists of long-range radar, a single forward-looking video camera, and 12 ultrasonic sensors to create a 16-foot bubble around the car providing lane-keeping, full drogue- chute emergency stopping, and autonomous following in stop- and-go traffic. It has long-range radar, a single forward- looking video camera, and 12 ultrasonic sensors that create a 16-foot bubble around the car to allow for lane-keeping, full drogue-chute emergency stopping, and autonomous following in stop-and-go traffic. Whoops.

lispm 12y ago

The typical Porsche/BMW/Mercedes/Audi will easily get past it on the Autobahn. At 250 km/h the battery will be empty quite fast...

gambiting 12y ago
I love the autobahn. I travel on it frequently while doing business in EU, and there's something special about travelling at 200-250km/h(120-150mph) without any problems. But I am afraid you will not find a lot of sympathy from other HN readers - the autobahn is such an exception in today's world, that for vast majority of people it's really not important how a car drives at 120mph+. That makes me sad personally, but rationally autobahn driving is not a major component of any discussion.
- lispm 12y ago
  > that for vast majority of people it's really not important how a car drives at 120mph+ That's why Tesla increased max speed for the new model to 250 km/h? > That makes me sad personally, but rationally autobahn driving is not a major component of any discussion. 'Rationally driving' is not a part of any discussion of a car in this class. Nobody needs such environmentally unfriendly cars like a Tesla S or the cars of the German brands...
  - gambiting 12y ago
    Well, the first one is mostly a bragging right, and also something that some clients will use on closed circuits, so it's not completely meaningless. And I didn't say anything about rational driving. I said that rationally, since only a very tiny minority of people in the world can experience driving on the autobahn, autobahn driving is most probably not very important point of discussions for majority of people in the world.
    - lispm 12y ago
      > and also something that some clients will use on closed circuits, a tiny microscopic minority > I said that rationally, since only a very tiny minority of people in the world can experience driving on the autobahn, The amount of people who can experience driving a Tesla is much much smaller. > autobahn driving is most probably not very important point of discussions for majority of people in the world. Well, here in Germany a lot of people use the Autobahn. I see lots of people from Germany, France, Poland, Denmark, Austria, ... using it. I bet that a lot of people buying a Tesla in France will try it on the German Autobahn. They won't get very far with it, though.
      - gambiting 12y ago
        >>a tiny microscopic minority Yeah, that's what I said. >>The amount of people who can experience driving a Tesla is much much smaller. So is the number of people who buy S-Klasse AMG...your point? >>Well, here in Germany a lot of people use the Autobahn. I see lots of people from France, Poland, Denmark, Austria, ... using it Yep, I am not German and I use it too(thank you for it). Even if you added all Germans, Austrians, British and Poles together it's still going to be "only" a couple hundred million people. And most of them are not interested in going that fast on the Autobahn. When I drive through Germany there's plenty of people driving in the fast lane going 200km/h or faster, but there is even more "regular" people in "regular" cars going at 130km/h. In fact I don't know what (and even if) we are arguing about. Tesla is awesome. And I would love to take it on the autobahn.
  - mikeash 12y ago
masklinn 12y ago
> At 250 km/h the battery will be empty quite fast… Then again, the typical high-performance sedan doesn't have much range either at 250km/h. At that speed, a 3-series will burn through 30L/100km and they have a 60L tank. A 5-series has a 70L tank but I don't know how much fuel it goes through at 250. I don't expect significantly better efficiency though.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- lispm 12y ago
  A Tesla S was tested at constant 120 km/h to reach 184 km. An Audi would reach 1000km. How far does a Tesla go at 200km/h? 100km? Less?

ck2 12y ago

When is the Model X shipping? I can't afford either but if I am going to have a fantasy car I want the X http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx#modelx-rotator-spin http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx#modelx-rotator-spin

warrenmiller 12y ago
Fall 2015
- ck2 12y ago
  I know that is what it says but wouldn't they have to be demo-ing the X by now for mass manufacturing to be happening and completed by then?
  - rdl 12y ago
    Model X P85D would be a pretty solid Cayenne-killer.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    I agree! Where are the spy shots? I haven't seen "boo".

ISL 12y ago

The 3.1 second 0-60 time is the equivalent of a 0-60 distance of 136 feet. That's impressive in comparison with the 113-foot 60-0 stopping distance. The car is only 20% slower speeding up than it is slowing down. One wonders what they could do in 0-60 and 60-0 times if the tires were replaced with gears and the road with a geared track. It only takes 250' of track, less than a football field, to find out. Put another way, this four-door sedan reaches 60 mph when it's made it to the 45-yard line of an american football field.

Cthulhu_ 12y ago
Has that ever been done? I can imagine it'd just skip out of the gears and crash horribly. You know, like square wheels. Fitting warmed-up soft slicks and doing it on an F1 track or specialized tarmac would probably yield better results.
- ISL 12y ago
  Looks like 5000-feet-per-minute gearing was possible in 1922 [1]. Doing it with a linear track will be harder, but I don't think it's impossible. [1] http://books.google.com/books?id=GPNKAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA87&ots=m3CfdTTlEs&dq=5000%20feet%20per%20minute%20gear&pg=PA87#v=onepage&q=5000%20feet%20per%20minute%20gear&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=GPNKAAAAMAAJ&lpg=PA87&ots=m...
- mox1 12y ago
  I think the torque output would probably break internal drive train components as soon as you hit the accelerator on a gear type setup (you also cant use the back tires for output, it will flip the car over). You actually want / need some tire flex to absorb the initial torque. This is especially true with electric motors, where 100% of the torque shows up instantly (gas engines have a torque curve) Watch a NHRA funny car start in slow motion. The big fat back tires actually wrinkle up into themselves a lot, then spring back out[1]. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8vf0QiK5TQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8vf0QiK5TQ
  - cc438 12y ago

danbee 12y ago

"email-instant reflexes" < This isn't the compliment I think they were going for!

josefresco 12y ago
I also cringed when I read that - although I don't think "social media-instant reflexes" would be an improvement.
RankingMember 12y ago
Haha, I thought the same thing, like "what email service has this guy been using?". When they brought the comparison around to the Pony Express it made more sense.

mkaufmann 12y ago

Impressive acceleration time! The new record for accelerating from 0-100 km/h of only 1.785 seconds was just set a few days ago[1]. The car required less than 30 meters to accelerate to this speed. Of course it was only a prototype car but still impressive to see the limits. [1]https://www.ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-news/news/2014/11/Grimsel_bricht_Weltrekord.html https://www.ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-news/news/2014/11...

masklinn 12y ago
The current non-prototype (/production car) record holder is the 918 Spyder with 2.2s (and a slightly higher base MSRP of $845000)
- coldpie 12y ago
  Although they're already sold out, so you'll have to pick one up on the used market. ;)
  - giarc 12y ago
    And that used price will most definitely be increasing as a 918 recently burnt up. http://ca.autoblog.com/2014/09/29/porsche-918-spdyer-update-gas-station-fire-burned-pics-gallery-video-michael-wekerle-wek/ http://ca.autoblog.com/2014/09/29/porsche-918-spdyer-update-...
- m3Lith 12y ago
  And, for reference, top fuel dragsters can do 0-100 km/h in like ~0.3s.
  - masklinn 12y ago
    Hence the emphasis on production cars, once you get into special racing or one-offs it's meaningless: you can just strap a soon-to-be-dismantled body on a rocket sled and launch it at 50+G.

zaroth 12y ago

Just $11,000 in frosting. Right... What I want to know is where are they taking $40k off of the price to make a sedan that a larger percentage can own. I love the quote about 100 changes. Constant innovation. Do any of the hardware upgrades flow into the field? Is the chassis modular enough to bother upgrading?

gutnor 12y ago
Selling a few high end car (Porsche) and selling a mass-market car (VW, Ford) are vastly different businesses. Boutique style pampering you get today when buying a Tesla does not scale, or at least not easily. For example, online buying, Tesla shop, even the SuperCharger network would need to scale dramatically. They could do it, like Apple. But with this news and the opening of their patent sooner, I'm just wondering if they are not simply giving up on the mass market leaving it to generalist brands like Toyota, VW, ... IMO that would not be so bad, they risk to devaluate their brand significantly in the mass market if they fuck up there and fucking up there has a not much to do with technology. ( after all, brand like Toyota have Lexus counterpart just for the purpose of splitting luxury from mass market ) edit: as suggested s/specialist/generalist.
- afarrell 12y ago
  s/specialist/generalist. Unless you are using a different definition for those words, I don't know why you would call Toyota a specialist brand relative to Tesla.
  - gutnor 12y ago
    "specialist in the mass market" I meant, but yeah "generalist" is definitively better.
    - afarrell 12y ago
      Just a guess: did your brain think "someone with expertise in the mass market" and then shorten "someone with experience" to "specialist"?

gambiting 12y ago

I said this before but I will say it again - I will happily pay money for a chrome plugin which allows for automatic conversion of every imperial unit into SI unit on any website visited. Or maybe a built-in JS script which does it depending on where you visit the page from(or a toggle on the top).

VLM 12y ago
With proper sig figs please, 60 MPH is 100 KMH not journalist style 96.56064 KMH.
lectrick 12y ago
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autoconvert-auto-currency/pbghjbbdfkjffaalmcfgelakmeckapnd?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autoconvert-auto-c... That may do the job
- gambiting 12y ago
  Oh my god. This is it - fantastic plugin. Thank you!
aredington 12y ago
Similar tool available for Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/converter/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/converter/ Just started using it, happy to be able to excise that bit of pervasive ignorance from my life.

moconnor 12y ago

I think a motoring review of an electric car that doesn't feel the need to mention range or recharging problems marks a significant shift in public perception of EVs.

masklinn 12y ago

For what it's worth, the relevant Wikipedia page[0] lists the P85D as #24 on the list of fastest-accelerating production cars, far behind e.g. the 911GT3, Aventador, McLaren P1 or the ridiculous 918 Spyder's 2.2. It is however listed as the fastest-accelerating sedan/non-supercar, a hair's breadth in front of the Audi RS7 and the Mercedes E63AMG's 3.2. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars...

GFischer 12y ago
Interestingly enough, it's priced similarly to both the RS7 and the E63 AMG.

chrisBob 12y ago

My favorite part of the article is the comments at the bottom about how the sucker buying a Dodge Charger will have to pay for gas. I had a friend a few years ago who bought a $15,000 BMW motorcycle to save gas money 4 months a year in New York, and now you can go one better: buy a $120,000 car and then leach off of the supercharger network. I love Teslas, but buy one because it is an amazing luxury car with an AWD option, not because it is the best financial decision.

josefresco 12y ago
The Charger is an odd comparison, but it would be fun to race an R/T AWD against one of these. I don't think the Charger would even compete but I'm curious if the financial aspect would be the same when factoring in gas/maintenance/value etc.
Igglyboo 12y ago
The all electric engine is important in the long run but the people who are currently buying teslas aren't the people who care about gas prices.
- mikeash 12y ago
  I don't know about that. I see quite a few people talking about buying one, or actually buying one, and the savings in gas is a big part of it. It may sound crazy, but it makes sense for people who would spend that much on a car anyway, and who drive a lot. If you're debating between a Tesla and a Corolla then the gas savings doesn't matter much. If you're debating between a Tesla and a similarly-priced BMW and you drive a lot, saving several thousand dollars a year in gasoline can be nice. People who spend a lot of money on cars don't suddenly not want to save money.
giarc 12y ago
I believe there was a link on HN awhile ago from a guy that did a very in-depth analysis of cost of ownership. I believe the Tesla actually did come out on top of comparable vehicles due to lower fuel costs, lower maintenance costs etc. I'll try to find the link. EDIT Here is the link http://www.teslacost.com/ http://www.teslacost.com/ The creator has since updated the figures after HN members noticed some errors and the Honda Odyssey came out on top (unless you are able quantify safety, HOV access etc).

kmfrk 12y ago

How much of a problem is using Tesla vehicles in cold climates these days? I recall adverse battery performance as a result being up for discussion a while ago.

josefresco 12y ago
Every car maker tests models in cold weather climates. Even car makers with electric models. In fact I've seen video footage of a Tesla driving around in frozen conditions...it was boring, but that was the point- it just worked. I do think cold weather operation has some trade-offs, but I don't think it's enough to impede sales in cold climates.
- jfb 12y ago
  I think the point is that cold weather imposes different trade-offs on a pure electric than it does on a conventional car. This is largely expressed in decreased range -- but then again, an IC engine will also be less efficient in Winnipeg than LA.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    > I think the point is that cold weather imposes different trade-offs on a pure electric than it does on a conventional car. This is largely expressed in decreased range -- but then again, an IC engine will also be less efficient in Winnipeg than LA. I don't know if that's necessarily true. Doesn't the Carnot equation imply that it's the difference between engine temperature and ambient that helps determine efficiency? Eg, a 100° engine running in 100° ambient is inefficient, but a 100° running in 200° or in 0° will be equally efficient?
    - seanflyon 12y ago
      > I don't know if that's necessarily true It's not necessarily true, but it happens to be true.
      - 12y ago

josefresco 12y ago

I don't think the average consumer understands or appreciate how Tesla is different. I often talk with family members about Musk and Tesla and most don't really get what's so different than say another all-electric car. For example this: "During a chat with Musk at the P85D's introduction, he mentioned that on average, Tesla implements about 20 modifications to the car per week. Not software, mind you, but actual hard parts. Per week." I'm sure traditional car makers tweak hardware as well, but it seems Tesla's focus on software-esque hardware iteration is unique. Their willingness to push updates constantly breaks from the "mid-cycle" refresh and small year-over-year iterations commonplace amongst all established automakers. And this: "Lift the front trunk's lid (the frunk, they call it), and you're struck by how much all of this was anticipated back when the Model S was penned. What was a recessed cavity near the firewall becomes the new forward engine room with enough left to swallow a duffle bag and retain its terrific 5-star frontal crash performance." This is not just a scrappy startup car maker just getting by with an acceptable but not brilliant first generation product. You get the feeling that Tesla is always three steps ahead yet are confident enough to reveal them one-at-a-time.

chiph 12y ago
> Tesla implements about 20 modifications to the car per week Traditional car makers do slipstream changes into their cars, but this is just crazy. Think of the service challenges, and the parts catalog challenges. Not to mention the cost of all those different parts. "Oh, your's was made the fifth week of August, so you need a different bracket. We don't keep those in stock because they're all different. Here's a service loaner and we'll call you when it's done."
- Recoil42 12y ago
  It's a bit misleading of a conclusion to make, because most of those changes likely aren't non-compatible changes. For instance, maybe a chip goes out of manufacturing, and they can no longer get it supplied, but a successor product from the same supplier meets all the same requirements. Perhaps a bracket goes out of manufacture, but an almost identical bracket is sourced from a different supplier. This would qualify as a hardware modification, but is a non-breaking change.

mrfusion 12y ago

offshot topic, from reading the stats at the end of the article: How are cars with higher city than highway milage not violating conservation of energy? I've heard the explanation that regenerative braking in city driving recharges the battery, but surely it's still better to not brake at all, right? You must incur some loss recharging the battery from kinetic energy?

jcampbell1 12y ago
Lower speeds mean lower air resistance. City fuel economy should be higher than highway if braking energy is recovered at a high enough efficiency.
- mrfusion 12y ago
  Good point. So really the best milage would be going a constant but lower speed? Like 50MPH?
  - SideburnsOfDoom 12y ago
    Seems like it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-efficient_driving#Maintaining_an_efficient_speed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-efficient_driving#Mainta...
  - mikeash 12y ago
    Yep. Don't confuse "highway" for "best". My Prius v is rated at 44 city and 40 highway. If I drive it for extended periods on back roads (i.e. mostly around 55MPH) I can easily get 60+MPG. Optimal speed for any given car will vary depending on the engine, the gearing, and other such things, but typical highway speeds are usually beyond it. This is especially true with hybrids, which can reduce or eliminate a lot of the efficiency losses that normal cars suffer from at lower speeds.
    - blisterpeanuts 12y ago
      That's remarkable. My Prius V (2013) gets about 49 mpg when I drive 55 MPH on smooth, level roads. A couple of times I've hit 50 mpg. Also, I frequent the Prius Chat forum and I've never heard of anyone getting 60+ mpg. Have you modified your vehicle? Is it a plug-in?

RankingMember 12y ago

Every time I read a Tesla article like this I feel like I'm dreaming. Actual, usable, daily-driven electric cars with performance comparable to dino-powered cars were talked about as being vaporware for the longest time. It's amazing to see this company keep moving. That said, I can't wait to see their "everyman" offering, whenever that arrives. I could see them making it a sub-brand so that they could scale down the service to make it financially feasible (and so the rich could still feel like big shots when they say "I've got a Tesla" without people thinking they mean the everyman car).

zarkov99 12y ago
I have an S already and am also looking forward to the III. I am not worried about the brand loosing value by producing an everyday car and I do not know any other owners that are. I hope Tesla doesn't go for those cheap gimmicks and just continues to focus on engineering excellence. I do hope they can maintain their level of service as well. I think they will. The S is already a fairly reliable car and electric cars are fundamentally more reliable that their gas counterparts and by the time the III comes out Tesla will have improved their QA further.

slipangel 12y ago

As an auto enthusiast, I generally feel "yucky" after surveying the comments and feedback following a Tesla press release. C&D and MotorTrend generally bias hard for anything American made, which is fine and par for the course. My discomfort comes from the feeling that journalists are making the Model S out to be a competitive alternative to a high performance automobile, which it is not. A Model S can't make a single lap in anger around Mazda Raceway without the software putting it in limp mode to prevent heat build up from causing permanent damage. A half-day jaunt through twisty mountain roads is absolutely out of the question. It is a car that can drag race from a stop, hit a freeway on-ramp with some gusto, and give you carbon-free credentials the rest of the time. No one shopping for an M3, 911, or AMG product who actually intends to use them for their performance is cross-shopping a Model S as a like-for-like option, but the press consistently paints the picture that Tesla is a gas-free alternative or even superior to current offerings. I don't intend to degrade what it is, because it is a marvel of modern business, politics, and a little engineering that this car exists. I simply feel gross when I see how much hype puts it up for the Model S being something it isn't.

umsm 12y ago
I don't own a high-performance car and have never driven a Model S, but to me this car is truly unique in it's category. You can't compare the Model S with gas-powered engines that had many decades to be refined. Considering everything, the Model S appears to have made a larger jump than any other car in recent history. It's not designed to be raced on a track, but it does give you an edge in some situations where any other EV or most gas powered vehicles won't.
- TrainedMonkey 12y ago
  That is precisely his point, you can't, but all the reviews do.
- scott_karana 12y ago
  Electric motors predate the internal combustion engine, keep in mind.

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