7 ms·

There is tremendous long run psychological and physical harm associated with living paycheck to paycheck in perpetual debt having to eat subpar foodstuffs becau

by zanny 12y ago

There is tremendous long run psychological and physical harm associated with living paycheck to paycheck in perpetual debt having to eat subpar foodstuffs because fruits and vegetables cost way more than dollar menu cheeseburgers per calorie. And if you don't have a working kitchen you can't cook farmers market produce. And that is at best. A lot of us are unemployed, and families are collapsing in on themselves as you have fewer and fewer breadwinners.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
There is tremendous long run psychological and physical harm associated with living paycheck to paycheck This is entirely in the control of most poor Americans. India's GDP/capita is $5500 after adjusting for cost of living, yet India has a 20% savings rate. Poor Americans could reduce consumption and save if they wished. in perpetual debt having to eat subpar foodstuffs because fruits and vegetables cost way more than dollar menu cheeseburgers per calorie. Poor Americans tend to be fat. That means they can reduce calories and increase the quality of food while spending the same amount of money. And if you don't have a working kitchen you can't cook farmers market produce. 3% of poor Americans lack a complete kitchen (see table 2-4). http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf tl;dr; Poor Americans have some self inflicted problems. That's not much of an argument for protectionism against poor Bangladeshi's suffering from externally inflicted problems.
- rattray 12y ago
  I've been traveling in SE Asia for the past 4 months, including China (not yet India). I've been in urban slums and poor rural villages. I also went to university in West Philadelphia, so I've spent a bit of time in an American "inner city". I'd take the rural village or even the urban slum over the American inner city any day. It might look from the outside that life "is entirely in the control of most poor Americans". But nothing could be further from the truth. The amount of forces conspiring against you as a student or young would-be worker in the ghetto is simply unfathomable to anyone with a middle-class or wealthier background (like myself). I'd argue you have a much better chance at moving up in the world as a poor person in Vietnam than America. There, you start a small business (eg; selling goods on the street) and work hard to grow it. Here, you can't just do that: people don't buy anything off the street. And don't tell me "they can just learn to code": I tried to teach them. They don't have computers. Not in the schools. Not at home. Also, consider that unhealthy foods are often genuinely addicting and addictions are really, really hard to break. Especially when you're stretched then. I don't want this to turn into a rant, so I'll just say that before you start blaming the American poor for their problems, spend some time living there, talking to them, and understanding their problems.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    I'd argue you have a much better chance at moving up in the world as a poor person in Vietnam than America. Your argument would be wrong, at least as of the last time we ran this experiment. Back in the 80's we took a bunch of Vietnamese and turned them into poor Americans. Now they are not poor. In contrast, the Vietnamese who stayed behind are still very poor. That includes the ones who started small businesses like selling goods on the street. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_American#Socioeconomics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_American#Socioeconom...
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      There are plenty of Vietnamese/Hmong/chinese viet poverty in the states. And why San Jose gangs are mostly asian.
    - collyw 12y ago
      That was in the 80's. 30 - 40 years ago. A lot has changed, and not much of it for the better.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  I can't tell if you are trolling or are serious. Anyways, I'll leave is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053.html/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05...
  - pron 12y ago
    Excellent article. Thanks!
- SCHiM 12y ago
  There have been studies that showed that the psychological problems that stem from being poor have little to do with your absolute wealth. It's more of a peer-thing. If you're the poorest man in a very rich peer-group you'll still feel miserable and less. The problem then with being poor in America is not that you're rich compared to a farmer in vietnam, the problem is that you're poor compared to the people you see on your crappy TV. To quote the report: "Mental health is also a key pathway through which inequality impacts on health. There is overwhelming evidence that inequality is a key cause of stress in itself and also exacerbates the stress of coping with material deprivation"[0] [0] http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/100821/E92227.pdf http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/100821/E...
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    Yes - as I said in my first post: What, precisely, do you believe poor Americans are suffering from? The only concrete answer I usually hear is envy The best solution I see to the problem of envy is directing social opprobrium towards people who exacerbate the problem (e.g., politicians appealing to envy, celebrity news publicizing lifestyles of the rich and famous).
    - elif 12y ago
      I've had the privilege of having time to sit down and talk with plenty of folks struggling in the southeast US. None of them, that is zero, show any discernable 'envy.' What you are talking about is either a straw man or a deeply hidden psychological issue I just couldn't detect a hint of. Or perhaps you are mistaking the new paycheck-to-paycheck middle class for the actual poor. In my experience these are either fiercy proud or cynically hopeless people with so many immediate issues they lack even awareness about what us rich people are doing. The real problems they face are debilitating sickness, taking care of a family member with debilitating sickness, struggling to continue sleeping where they are presently, struggling with maintaining a human identity in a society that treats them subhumanly, trying to get hired as a felon, trying to secure the trust of any financial institution, trying to break drug habits and cope with psychosis and other mental illnesses without access to a pharmacy or non-ER doctor.
- pron 12y ago
  Societies don't work like that. Individuals don't live in a vacuum, free to make their own rational choices. Each one of us is born into the world with obligations and relationships created for us by our families. Children are usually not free to choose what education they get, the level of financial (or labor) support they're required to contribute to their family, the role models they're exposed to, or the access to people who can open doors for them. These obligations, as well as opportunities -- even among those of the same income level-- differ greatly from one culture to another. For example, nominal poverty in a close-knit rural society is very different from that in urban areas. Comparing income (even adjusted income) in one society to that of a very different culture makes little sense. This applies both to poor people as well as the rich (who buy different things in different cultures), although the differences are much bigger among the poor because they are less exposed to foreign fashions. Even if the economy was completely fair (and it isn't -- access to education and to key contacts plays a major role in your chances for success), there are so many social pressures surrounding us (and while all of us are subject to some social pressures, those the poor experience are usually much more choice-limiting) that describing economic behavior as a free choice is completely disconnected from reality, and from everything we've learned in about a century of sociology. EDIT: And as to your original question, what do the American poor suffer from, they suffer from poor healthcare, bad education, constant financial dread, constant encounters with the law, life in high-crime neighborhoods and probably dozens of more very serious problems that I'm lucky enough not to have experienced. Your patronizing attitude, suggestion that people not in imminent danger of starvation are not suffering (or that there suffering is their own choice) is completely ignorant. If I recall correctly, we've had a similar argument over feminism, and there, too, you've shown complete disregard and disdain to any actual research on the subject by people devoting their lives to it. You can either learn about property -- or not -- but you should know that if you don't, you're arguments stand on ignorance, which, unlike poverty, is actually your own choice.
- redmoskito 12y ago
  Respectfully, it believe you've misread that census report. 3% of _all_ American households lack a complete kitchen, not 3% of poor Americans. That is a much more striking statistic, and there's reason to believe it may be higher, since marginalized Americans are both the most likely to be suffering lack of basic resources and the most likely to be unrepresented by the US census. Further, this study only measured households, and ignores the homeless and incarcerated, which represent another 2% of the population. Considering that 10-15% of adults in the US live in poverty, your reference suggests that anywhere between 30% and 50% live without a complete kitchen.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    See Table 2-4, Page 52, the rightmost column ("Below poverty level"). 503/14157.0 = 3.5%. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf
wooter 12y ago
> subpar foodstuffs because fruits and vegetables cost way more than dollar menu cheeseburgers per calorie. what? not even remotely true. i frequently buy 6 lb bags of frozen broccoli/cauliflower/carrot for 8 bucks. There is cheap, healthy food out there, some people just aren't buying it.
- pilsetnieks 12y ago
  > 6 lb bags of frozen broccoli/cauliflower/carrot for 8 bucks That implies access to a working freezer, electricity, and transportation to drive out to Costco or wherever; things that are nowhere near granted for everyone.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    The freezer and electricity are available to at least 97% of poor Americans. One or more cars is available to 73%. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf For comparison, India and Bangladesh are likely to have electricity percentages around 50% (no good data is available) and car ownership rates in the single digits.
    - redmoskito 12y ago
      *Freezer and electricity are available to 97% of _all_ American (households). One or more cars is available to 73% of _all_ American (households).
      - yummyfajitas 12y ago
        No, _poor_ American households. See table 2-4 on page 52, look in the "Below poverty level" column on the right side of the page.
  - collyw 12y ago
    Time to prepare food as well.
- 12y ago

by zanny 12y ago

yummyfajitas 12y ago

There is tremendous long run psychological and physical harm associated with living paycheck to paycheck This is entirely in the control of most poor Americans. India's GDP/capita is $5500 after adjusting for cost of living, yet India has a 20% savings rate. Poor Americans could reduce consumption and save if they wished. in perpetual debt having to eat subpar foodstuffs because fruits and vegetables cost way more than dollar menu cheeseburgers per calorie. Poor Americans tend to be fat. That means they can reduce calories and increase the quality of food while spending the same amount of money. And if you don't have a working kitchen you can't cook farmers market produce. 3% of poor Americans lack a complete kitchen (see table 2-4). http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf tl;dr; Poor Americans have some self inflicted problems. That's not much of an argument for protectionism against poor Bangladeshi's suffering from externally inflicted problems.

rattray 12y ago
I've been traveling in SE Asia for the past 4 months, including China (not yet India). I've been in urban slums and poor rural villages. I also went to university in West Philadelphia, so I've spent a bit of time in an American "inner city". I'd take the rural village or even the urban slum over the American inner city any day. It might look from the outside that life "is entirely in the control of most poor Americans". But nothing could be further from the truth. The amount of forces conspiring against you as a student or young would-be worker in the ghetto is simply unfathomable to anyone with a middle-class or wealthier background (like myself). I'd argue you have a much better chance at moving up in the world as a poor person in Vietnam than America. There, you start a small business (eg; selling goods on the street) and work hard to grow it. Here, you can't just do that: people don't buy anything off the street. And don't tell me "they can just learn to code": I tried to teach them. They don't have computers. Not in the schools. Not at home. Also, consider that unhealthy foods are often genuinely addicting and addictions are really, really hard to break. Especially when you're stretched then. I don't want this to turn into a rant, so I'll just say that before you start blaming the American poor for their problems, spend some time living there, talking to them, and understanding their problems.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  I'd argue you have a much better chance at moving up in the world as a poor person in Vietnam than America. Your argument would be wrong, at least as of the last time we ran this experiment. Back in the 80's we took a bunch of Vietnamese and turned them into poor Americans. Now they are not poor. In contrast, the Vietnamese who stayed behind are still very poor. That includes the ones who started small businesses like selling goods on the street. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_American#Socioeconomics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_American#Socioeconom...
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    There are plenty of Vietnamese/Hmong/chinese viet poverty in the states. And why San Jose gangs are mostly asian.
  - collyw 12y ago
    That was in the 80's. 30 - 40 years ago. A lot has changed, and not much of it for the better.
seanmcdirmid 12y ago
I can't tell if you are trolling or are serious. Anyways, I'll leave is here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/17/AR2009051702053.html/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05...
- pron 12y ago
  Excellent article. Thanks!
SCHiM 12y ago
There have been studies that showed that the psychological problems that stem from being poor have little to do with your absolute wealth. It's more of a peer-thing. If you're the poorest man in a very rich peer-group you'll still feel miserable and less. The problem then with being poor in America is not that you're rich compared to a farmer in vietnam, the problem is that you're poor compared to the people you see on your crappy TV. To quote the report: "Mental health is also a key pathway through which inequality impacts on health. There is overwhelming evidence that inequality is a key cause of stress in itself and also exacerbates the stress of coping with material deprivation"[0] [0] http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/100821/E92227.pdf http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/100821/E...
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Yes - as I said in my first post: What, precisely, do you believe poor Americans are suffering from? The only concrete answer I usually hear is envy The best solution I see to the problem of envy is directing social opprobrium towards people who exacerbate the problem (e.g., politicians appealing to envy, celebrity news publicizing lifestyles of the rich and famous).
  - elif 12y ago
    I've had the privilege of having time to sit down and talk with plenty of folks struggling in the southeast US. None of them, that is zero, show any discernable 'envy.' What you are talking about is either a straw man or a deeply hidden psychological issue I just couldn't detect a hint of. Or perhaps you are mistaking the new paycheck-to-paycheck middle class for the actual poor. In my experience these are either fiercy proud or cynically hopeless people with so many immediate issues they lack even awareness about what us rich people are doing. The real problems they face are debilitating sickness, taking care of a family member with debilitating sickness, struggling to continue sleeping where they are presently, struggling with maintaining a human identity in a society that treats them subhumanly, trying to get hired as a felon, trying to secure the trust of any financial institution, trying to break drug habits and cope with psychosis and other mental illnesses without access to a pharmacy or non-ER doctor.
pron 12y ago
Societies don't work like that. Individuals don't live in a vacuum, free to make their own rational choices. Each one of us is born into the world with obligations and relationships created for us by our families. Children are usually not free to choose what education they get, the level of financial (or labor) support they're required to contribute to their family, the role models they're exposed to, or the access to people who can open doors for them. These obligations, as well as opportunities -- even among those of the same income level-- differ greatly from one culture to another. For example, nominal poverty in a close-knit rural society is very different from that in urban areas. Comparing income (even adjusted income) in one society to that of a very different culture makes little sense. This applies both to poor people as well as the rich (who buy different things in different cultures), although the differences are much bigger among the poor because they are less exposed to foreign fashions. Even if the economy was completely fair (and it isn't -- access to education and to key contacts plays a major role in your chances for success), there are so many social pressures surrounding us (and while all of us are subject to some social pressures, those the poor experience are usually much more choice-limiting) that describing economic behavior as a free choice is completely disconnected from reality, and from everything we've learned in about a century of sociology. EDIT: And as to your original question, what do the American poor suffer from, they suffer from poor healthcare, bad education, constant financial dread, constant encounters with the law, life in high-crime neighborhoods and probably dozens of more very serious problems that I'm lucky enough not to have experienced. Your patronizing attitude, suggestion that people not in imminent danger of starvation are not suffering (or that there suffering is their own choice) is completely ignorant. If I recall correctly, we've had a similar argument over feminism, and there, too, you've shown complete disregard and disdain to any actual research on the subject by people devoting their lives to it. You can either learn about property -- or not -- but you should know that if you don't, you're arguments stand on ignorance, which, unlike poverty, is actually your own choice.
redmoskito 12y ago
Respectfully, it believe you've misread that census report. 3% of _all_ American households lack a complete kitchen, not 3% of poor Americans. That is a much more striking statistic, and there's reason to believe it may be higher, since marginalized Americans are both the most likely to be suffering lack of basic resources and the most likely to be unrepresented by the US census. Further, this study only measured households, and ignores the homeless and incarcerated, which represent another 2% of the population. Considering that 10-15% of adults in the US live in poverty, your reference suggests that anywhere between 30% and 50% live without a complete kitchen.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  See Table 2-4, Page 52, the rightmost column ("Below poverty level"). 503/14157.0 = 3.5%. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf

wooter 12y ago

> subpar foodstuffs because fruits and vegetables cost way more than dollar menu cheeseburgers per calorie. what? not even remotely true. i frequently buy 6 lb bags of frozen broccoli/cauliflower/carrot for 8 bucks. There is cheap, healthy food out there, some people just aren't buying it.

pilsetnieks 12y ago
> 6 lb bags of frozen broccoli/cauliflower/carrot for 8 bucks That implies access to a working freezer, electricity, and transportation to drive out to Costco or wherever; things that are nowhere near granted for everyone.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  The freezer and electricity are available to at least 97% of poor Americans. One or more cars is available to 73%. http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/h150-07.pdf For comparison, India and Bangladesh are likely to have electricity percentages around 50% (no good data is available) and car ownership rates in the single digits.
  - redmoskito 12y ago
    *Freezer and electricity are available to 97% of _all_ American (households). One or more cars is available to 73% of _all_ American (households).
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      No, _poor_ American households. See table 2-4 on page 52, look in the "Below poverty level" column on the right side of the page.
- collyw 12y ago
  Time to prepare food as well.
12y ago