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I've been following the dark net markets subreddit for a while because I'm fascinated by that question too. The consensus there seems to be, surprisingly, that

I've been following the dark net markets subreddit for a while because I'm fascinated by that question too. The consensus there seems to be, surprisingly, that having the authorities connect your address to illicit activity isn't that big a deal. When I've suggested that such association would constitute probable cause for a search warrant and hence anyone who's clearly exposed their address by communicating it unencrypted to a drug dealer should consult a criminal lawyer and henceforth keep their house clean of evidence, I've been downvoted. It really surprises me that people are risking their liberty this way.

barking 12y ago
I suppose you could use an incorrect name and then not open it for enough time for any raid to happen. Down the line if your address was exposed you could claim to have stuck them back in the mail unopened with return to sender written on them? I wouldn't like to be relying on that though.
- ripb 12y ago
  You could also use drop box services like Parcel Motel and maintain a degree of anonymity through it. Depending on how well you set it up, the only real chance of being caught is if the package was found in transit and the authorities decided to essentially set up a sting on the drop box and wait for you to collect it. However, for recreational consumer use, you're talking quantities that absolutely could not justify such an operation. The value in such an operation through a traditional drug dealing network would be that the person caught could serve up information on who they got it from. When you're talking about buying drugs anonymously online, none of that information will be available.
  - _up 12y ago
    In Germany, DHL is offering what in the US is known as Amazon Lockers. And they got hacked and used for drug trading. After the money/bitcoin transfer you simply got the access code and could get your drugs like from a vending machine. Though they somehow got busted.
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      I would imagine they're also all in places with 24/7 video surveillance. The Amazon lockers here are in 7-11 convenience store, each of which has more video cameras than a fleet of drones.
      - _up 12y ago
        No they are outside. We have only very few places that are open 24/7. So it wouldn't work otherwise.
  - barking 12y ago
    Wouldn't the parcel need to be bigger than letterbox size to justify a delivery to a parcel motel without creating suspicions on that basis alone? And wouldn't you then be into amounts exceeding recreational amounts?
    - ripb 12y ago
      No not necessarily. I use PM a lot here in Ireland, mainly for things that only have UK shipping available, or free shipping to the UK but not elsewhere, etc. PM is €3-€4 for a standard package, so what I'll regularly encounter is things on Amazon that are free delivery to the UK but quite a bit more expensive than PM to be delivered to Ireland. Things also seem to ship through PM drastically faster than through the normal postal service.
      - barking 12y ago
        It's occurred to me how similar this conversation is to this http://xkcd.com/538/ http://xkcd.com/538/ The real criminals will have the stuff delivered to some poor unfortunate who they've scared witless and not worry about the minutiae.
- joosters 12y ago
  That'd just be more suspicious than regular deliveries. Your mailman might think it odd that you are receiving packages for different names at your address...
  - TimJRobinson 12y ago
    I've never lived in a house which didn't regularly receive letters for at least 5+ people who previously lived there. I'm sure your mailman nor any intelligence agencies keep notes on mail arriving with a different name.
    - joosters 12y ago
      Actually, since the NSA disclosures showed that they often photograph postal envelopes, I'm pretty sure that there are databases of names and addresses somewhere... But you make a good point - if you are going to invent a name, you should probably choose one of the previous occupants.
josu 12y ago
In most countries you don't go to jail for an small amount, and the likelihood of the police breaking into your house is pretty low. I don't know about the US though.
- thisjepisje 12y ago
  In the US they cut off your electricity and then pose as electricians who're going to fix it :D
nmjohn 12y ago
You've likely been downvoted because you misunderstand how it works. Only idiots are communicating their addresses unencrypted - PGP encryption for addresses is standard. So the only way for your address to be matched to your dark net activity is if a.) the person you are buying from gets busted and b.) the person you're buying from doesn't destroy the address after they ship the package.
- janih 12y ago
  So you have trust that your vendor is tech-savvy enough to know about proper security measures or else your address will be leaked if he gets busted. Isn't there any other ways to hide your address?
- hristov 12y ago
  c.) the person you are buying from is an actual police agency. The police use undercover drug dealers on the streets. Why wouldn't they use them online, where it is much cheaper and safer.
  - natrius 12y ago
    Because cracking down on drug buyers is low-priority for law enforcement.
    - electromagnetic 12y ago
      Also in other countries (like Canada) police don't even care about drug use as it's not illegal. So purchasing grams of a substance wouldn't even be worth a raid as they'll not find anything to charge you with and the fallout would be greater than the reward. The political fallout in Canada for running a raid where nothing is found is massive. Warrant mistakes have landed police agencies on the front pages for weeks, if it came out they were doing raids based on next to no police work, not only would the police be under fire but the judges would be too.
      - refurb 12y ago
drdeadringer 12y ago
> following the dark net markets subreddit As someone who is well aware of being hopelessly clueless regarding discovering even the most simplest of illicit transactions to save one's own life, I was wondering how people find out about new or existing dark-net markets beyond nebulous "word of mouth" scenarios one sees amongst the "old guard" "Liam Neeson"-type gangster characters in film.
- malandrew 12y ago
  This is something I've been curious about as well. I would love to be able to wander into such places as a lurker to see exactly what is going on. Are things as horrible as the popular media leads us to believe or are things far more banal. However now, with the revelations of the past year or so, it seems like the kind of thing that is risky to try and discover until after you learn tradecraft and how to protect your identity while exploring darknets.
  - ripb 12y ago
    If you're just lurking then you're committing no crimes, and sure if you've ever even googled "Tor" or "Tails" the NSA will have you marked for it anyway. [1] I decided to fire up Tor and have a look at the places mentioned in the article, having previously browsed (but never used) Silk Road before it was busted out of similar curiosity. They're basically as described. It's fairly disturbing that these exist. I don't mind people buying and selling drugs, as people are going to do that, but on these same market places people are selling identities, fraud equipment (POS and ATM skimmers), stolen credit card details, funds from hacked accounts and, most disturbingly, weapons. The weapons are by far the worst aspect of it. There's listings for everything from 3D printed guns through to modified AK47s that are now fully automatic. Worst of all, there is materials listed for making explosives, as well as components like fuses and switches. I hate to think of whose hands these things end up in. 1. http://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-likely-targets-anybody-whos-tor-curious/ http://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-likely-targets-anybody-whos-tor...
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
thr20141102 12y ago
If I were going to make such a purchase, I'd just have it shipped to a made-up name 'c/o' another address, e.g. a friend's apartment. With my friend's permission, of course.

barking 12y ago

I suppose you could use an incorrect name and then not open it for enough time for any raid to happen. Down the line if your address was exposed you could claim to have stuck them back in the mail unopened with return to sender written on them? I wouldn't like to be relying on that though.

ripb 12y ago
You could also use drop box services like Parcel Motel and maintain a degree of anonymity through it. Depending on how well you set it up, the only real chance of being caught is if the package was found in transit and the authorities decided to essentially set up a sting on the drop box and wait for you to collect it. However, for recreational consumer use, you're talking quantities that absolutely could not justify such an operation. The value in such an operation through a traditional drug dealing network would be that the person caught could serve up information on who they got it from. When you're talking about buying drugs anonymously online, none of that information will be available.
- _up 12y ago
  In Germany, DHL is offering what in the US is known as Amazon Lockers. And they got hacked and used for drug trading. After the money/bitcoin transfer you simply got the access code and could get your drugs like from a vending machine. Though they somehow got busted.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    I would imagine they're also all in places with 24/7 video surveillance. The Amazon lockers here are in 7-11 convenience store, each of which has more video cameras than a fleet of drones.
    - _up 12y ago
      No they are outside. We have only very few places that are open 24/7. So it wouldn't work otherwise.
- barking 12y ago
  Wouldn't the parcel need to be bigger than letterbox size to justify a delivery to a parcel motel without creating suspicions on that basis alone? And wouldn't you then be into amounts exceeding recreational amounts?
  - ripb 12y ago
    No not necessarily. I use PM a lot here in Ireland, mainly for things that only have UK shipping available, or free shipping to the UK but not elsewhere, etc. PM is €3-€4 for a standard package, so what I'll regularly encounter is things on Amazon that are free delivery to the UK but quite a bit more expensive than PM to be delivered to Ireland. Things also seem to ship through PM drastically faster than through the normal postal service.
    - barking 12y ago
      It's occurred to me how similar this conversation is to this http://xkcd.com/538/ http://xkcd.com/538/ The real criminals will have the stuff delivered to some poor unfortunate who they've scared witless and not worry about the minutiae.
joosters 12y ago
That'd just be more suspicious than regular deliveries. Your mailman might think it odd that you are receiving packages for different names at your address...
- TimJRobinson 12y ago
  I've never lived in a house which didn't regularly receive letters for at least 5+ people who previously lived there. I'm sure your mailman nor any intelligence agencies keep notes on mail arriving with a different name.
  - joosters 12y ago
    Actually, since the NSA disclosures showed that they often photograph postal envelopes, I'm pretty sure that there are databases of names and addresses somewhere... But you make a good point - if you are going to invent a name, you should probably choose one of the previous occupants.

josu 12y ago

In most countries you don't go to jail for an small amount, and the likelihood of the police breaking into your house is pretty low. I don't know about the US though.

thisjepisje 12y ago
In the US they cut off your electricity and then pose as electricians who're going to fix it :D

nmjohn 12y ago

You've likely been downvoted because you misunderstand how it works. Only idiots are communicating their addresses unencrypted - PGP encryption for addresses is standard. So the only way for your address to be matched to your dark net activity is if a.) the person you are buying from gets busted and b.) the person you're buying from doesn't destroy the address after they ship the package.

janih 12y ago
So you have trust that your vendor is tech-savvy enough to know about proper security measures or else your address will be leaked if he gets busted. Isn't there any other ways to hide your address?
hristov 12y ago
c.) the person you are buying from is an actual police agency. The police use undercover drug dealers on the streets. Why wouldn't they use them online, where it is much cheaper and safer.
- natrius 12y ago
  Because cracking down on drug buyers is low-priority for law enforcement.
  - electromagnetic 12y ago
    Also in other countries (like Canada) police don't even care about drug use as it's not illegal. So purchasing grams of a substance wouldn't even be worth a raid as they'll not find anything to charge you with and the fallout would be greater than the reward. The political fallout in Canada for running a raid where nothing is found is massive. Warrant mistakes have landed police agencies on the front pages for weeks, if it came out they were doing raids based on next to no police work, not only would the police be under fire but the judges would be too.
    - refurb 12y ago

drdeadringer 12y ago

> following the dark net markets subreddit As someone who is well aware of being hopelessly clueless regarding discovering even the most simplest of illicit transactions to save one's own life, I was wondering how people find out about new or existing dark-net markets beyond nebulous "word of mouth" scenarios one sees amongst the "old guard" "Liam Neeson"-type gangster characters in film.

malandrew 12y ago
This is something I've been curious about as well. I would love to be able to wander into such places as a lurker to see exactly what is going on. Are things as horrible as the popular media leads us to believe or are things far more banal. However now, with the revelations of the past year or so, it seems like the kind of thing that is risky to try and discover until after you learn tradecraft and how to protect your identity while exploring darknets.
- ripb 12y ago
  If you're just lurking then you're committing no crimes, and sure if you've ever even googled "Tor" or "Tails" the NSA will have you marked for it anyway. [1] I decided to fire up Tor and have a look at the places mentioned in the article, having previously browsed (but never used) Silk Road before it was busted out of similar curiosity. They're basically as described. It's fairly disturbing that these exist. I don't mind people buying and selling drugs, as people are going to do that, but on these same market places people are selling identities, fraud equipment (POS and ATM skimmers), stolen credit card details, funds from hacked accounts and, most disturbingly, weapons. The weapons are by far the worst aspect of it. There's listings for everything from 3D printed guns through to modified AK47s that are now fully automatic. Worst of all, there is materials listed for making explosives, as well as components like fuses and switches. I hate to think of whose hands these things end up in. 1. http://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-likely-targets-anybody-whos-tor-curious/ http://www.cnet.com/news/nsa-likely-targets-anybody-whos-tor...
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]

thr20141102 12y ago

If I were going to make such a purchase, I'd just have it shipped to a made-up name 'c/o' another address, e.g. a friend's apartment. With my friend's permission, of course.