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Can you point to where they believe they are immune to the rules because they're using Bitcoin? To me it just looks like a badly implemented concept that happe

Can you point to where they believe they are immune to the rules because they're using Bitcoin? To me it just looks like a badly implemented concept that happens to use Bitcoin. I'm not seeing any Bitcoin exceptionalism here.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
The Bitcoin exceptionalism is clear in this bit: ---- arsenische - Do I need to learn all the laws of all the countries before publishing anything online or may I just use the common sense and conscience please? mitsuhiko - To be honest: when it comes to handling money I would assume so. If this website would be dealing with a real world currency you would have a bunch of problems on yourself at this point. Most people would avoid holding funds on their books for an unlimited amount of time. Don't build software you have to opt-out of and you have a lot less problems on your hand. Right now, this is dangerously close to being sued by someone. arsenische - That's why this kind of project is hardly possible with traditional money. This project was created during a 48 hour rails rumble competition. The beauty of Bitcoin is that everybody can use it to create something during a weekend. This is not a commercial project, we don't have resources to hire lawyers and accountants. --- From this it seems that not only do they think it avoids legal issues, but they do not consider publicly raising bitcoin to be a commercial project that needs lawyers or accountants.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Hmm. I can partially agree with that take on what they're saying. Though it seems more like they're saying "We have no resources but were able to this because it uses Bitcoin" than "We're immune to laws because we're using Bitcoin". Although this situation points out that there is a fundamental conflict with Bitcoin and the established systems that's going to require an adjustment period. While it's certainly true that laws governing money, accounting, finance, etc. can, will, and do apply to Bitcoin, the fact still remains that it's really easy to move money around electronically outside of institutional controls. Previously, the laws controlling electronic transfer have been enforced via the institutions, and that's no longer entirely possible. Some things will have to change, it will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    There's no fundamental conflict. Due to the existence of hard cash, I can set up a stall on the street selling stuff. However the tax and licensing folk might still want to talk to me, so just because I have only spent a weekend making a market barrow with a nice tarp, doesn't mean I shouldn't check out the legal ramifications before heading into town with my wares. edit - Also, if they are actually someone else's wares and you haven't yet asked anyone for their permission, buy several lawyers and some duct tape and apply them as full-body protective padding.
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      You're responding to something other than what I'm talking about. Of course the laws still apply, but the enforcement mechanisms (which have thus far been administered via institutions) can now be circumvented to a certain extent. It is a fundamental conflict and adjustment will be required.
      - lotsofmangos 12y ago
        I was trying to address directly that point. Pre-bitcoin, you could avoid the enforcement mechanisms with hard cash and a barrow. There was a long running British sitcom called "Only Fools and Horses" that dealt with this quite thoroughly. edit - If fleshed out a bit, the premise behind this project might actually make quite a good 21st century sequel episode. Del Boy would love bitcoin.
        petercooper 12y ago
        Except you know it would be a complete balls up, of course. Rodney would be all excited about the idea of Bitcoin, convince Del Boy on it, and then they'd start up their own TITcoin (Trotter's Independent Traders, of course) which would totally fall on its arse ;-)
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
- coldtea 12y ago
  Sounds like they have a variety of the BS "Freemen on the land" concept ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land ).
- atmosx 12y ago
  Hm, how old are these people? Because from what I understand, they don't have a clue about what they are actually doing or how businesses.
- Confusion 12y ago
  The first point has nothing to do with bitcoin. Any internet entrepreneur has to consider that question at some point and the answer is mostly: no, I do not need to learn all the laws of all the countries before starting a business online. I sell a service online. I know that I do not need to transfer VAT to the US government when selling to American citizens. I know I need to transfer VAT to my EU government for any sale to a citizen of an EU country. So far so good. Do you honestly think I know what to do when a Kenyan or Vietnamese citizen makes a purchase? Do you think most small US-based companies transfer VAT to the EU? Do you think anyone bars citizens from countries they don't want to deal with from purchasing their services? The internet is still the wild west for many things, because governments of the world still haven't caught up with internet commerce. Nobody, except for the larges companies, can reasonably be expected to be able to deal with the laws of a few hundred countries.

lotsofmangos 12y ago

The Bitcoin exceptionalism is clear in this bit: ---- arsenische - Do I need to learn all the laws of all the countries before publishing anything online or may I just use the common sense and conscience please? mitsuhiko - To be honest: when it comes to handling money I would assume so. If this website would be dealing with a real world currency you would have a bunch of problems on yourself at this point. Most people would avoid holding funds on their books for an unlimited amount of time. Don't build software you have to opt-out of and you have a lot less problems on your hand. Right now, this is dangerously close to being sued by someone. arsenische - That's why this kind of project is hardly possible with traditional money. This project was created during a 48 hour rails rumble competition. The beauty of Bitcoin is that everybody can use it to create something during a weekend. This is not a commercial project, we don't have resources to hire lawyers and accountants. --- From this it seems that not only do they think it avoids legal issues, but they do not consider publicly raising bitcoin to be a commercial project that needs lawyers or accountants.

waterlesscloud 12y ago
Hmm. I can partially agree with that take on what they're saying. Though it seems more like they're saying "We have no resources but were able to this because it uses Bitcoin" than "We're immune to laws because we're using Bitcoin". Although this situation points out that there is a fundamental conflict with Bitcoin and the established systems that's going to require an adjustment period. While it's certainly true that laws governing money, accounting, finance, etc. can, will, and do apply to Bitcoin, the fact still remains that it's really easy to move money around electronically outside of institutional controls. Previously, the laws controlling electronic transfer have been enforced via the institutions, and that's no longer entirely possible. Some things will have to change, it will be interesting to see how it shakes out.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  There's no fundamental conflict. Due to the existence of hard cash, I can set up a stall on the street selling stuff. However the tax and licensing folk might still want to talk to me, so just because I have only spent a weekend making a market barrow with a nice tarp, doesn't mean I shouldn't check out the legal ramifications before heading into town with my wares. edit - Also, if they are actually someone else's wares and you haven't yet asked anyone for their permission, buy several lawyers and some duct tape and apply them as full-body protective padding.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    You're responding to something other than what I'm talking about. Of course the laws still apply, but the enforcement mechanisms (which have thus far been administered via institutions) can now be circumvented to a certain extent. It is a fundamental conflict and adjustment will be required.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      I was trying to address directly that point. Pre-bitcoin, you could avoid the enforcement mechanisms with hard cash and a barrow. There was a long running British sitcom called "Only Fools and Horses" that dealt with this quite thoroughly. edit - If fleshed out a bit, the premise behind this project might actually make quite a good 21st century sequel episode. Del Boy would love bitcoin.
      - petercooper 12y ago
        Except you know it would be a complete balls up, of course. Rodney would be all excited about the idea of Bitcoin, convince Del Boy on it, and then they'd start up their own TITcoin (Trotter's Independent Traders, of course) which would totally fall on its arse ;-)
        lotsofmangos 12y ago
coldtea 12y ago
Sounds like they have a variety of the BS "Freemen on the land" concept ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land ).
atmosx 12y ago
Hm, how old are these people? Because from what I understand, they don't have a clue about what they are actually doing or how businesses.
Confusion 12y ago
The first point has nothing to do with bitcoin. Any internet entrepreneur has to consider that question at some point and the answer is mostly: no, I do not need to learn all the laws of all the countries before starting a business online. I sell a service online. I know that I do not need to transfer VAT to the US government when selling to American citizens. I know I need to transfer VAT to my EU government for any sale to a citizen of an EU country. So far so good. Do you honestly think I know what to do when a Kenyan or Vietnamese citizen makes a purchase? Do you think most small US-based companies transfer VAT to the EU? Do you think anyone bars citizens from countries they don't want to deal with from purchasing their services? The internet is still the wild west for many things, because governments of the world still haven't caught up with internet commerce. Nobody, except for the larges companies, can reasonably be expected to be able to deal with the laws of a few hundred countries.