9 ms·

Hungary Internet tax cancelled after mass protests

358 points by dan1234 12y ago

akos 12y ago
I'm Hungarian and I can assure that this move is a beautiful temporization from our government. They proposed this tax to herd the attention from the 'banning scandal'.[1] And now from one moment to the other, they are heroes. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-usa-hungary-idUSKCN0I921220141020 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-usa-hungary-idU...
theGimp 12y ago
Last time the proposed tax was posted [1], a lot of people thought it was a distraction from Hungary's international relationships -- specifically its increasing reliance on Russia. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8491882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8491882
- narag 12y ago
  It doesn't seem wise to give people against you a reason to rise, gather, be visible and reward the protest with a decision reversal. Now you can expect similar demostrations whenever you step the line.
  - spindritf 12y ago
    Or people feel satisfied with the cancelled tax and the energy for protest is safely released.
    - pestaa 12y ago
      Most of the protesters were civilized and informed. A few aggressors threw hardware at the windows, but I wouldn't say the overall tension against the Hungarian government has diminished.
  - omeid2 12y ago
    Peopling gathering and protesting before decision makers with the expectation of change isn't something new, every protest is a little revolution, and they go back as far as history. So giving people a personal issue to protest can be a pretty fair tool to distract them from other problems at greater scale. Dooes Hungary's Government needs to distract it's people? that is another question.
  - Fuxy 12y ago
    The difference between some protests and a revolution is listening to the people so backing down was a wise decision. If he wouldn't have backed down it could have easily turned into a revolution I'm certain this is not the only cause of people gathering in the streets it's just the last straw. The law was foolish but backing down was a good choice. This is a great example of a badly informed leader that doesn't understand this "internet" thing trying to squeeze more tax money out of its citizenry. Never attempt to tax or regulate something you don't fully understand.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  That doesn't make a lot of sense unless there was some news released during the period of the tax which they wanted to bury. The denial of entry of a few people to the US doesn't really seem like it would qualify. Maybe they signed TTIP and I didn't notice...
middleclick 12y ago
What were the politicians thinking when they decided to tax the Internet?
- patzal 12y ago
  one possible explanation is that it was just a communication trick, to make people talk about this instead of the corruption scandal which resulted in government officials being banned from entering the US. http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2014/10/17/the-us-cancels-visas-for-hungarians-involved-in-corruption/ http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2014/10/17/the-us-cancel...
- pestaa 12y ago
  To distract the public opinion from talking about high priority officers being forbidden from entering the USA.
  - xxs 12y ago
    The technique is known as smoke&mirrors.
- eidyia 12y ago
  politics is like a magic trick, "hey look here while am doing something else" only with a much less impressive finale, am afraid manipulation is a normal tactic =[
- spyder 12y ago
  Probably they were just searching for things that don't have some extra tax (above the already existing %27 VAT), and they found this weird Internet thing on that list. Also today the PM said: "We need to find an answer to the question where the giant extra profit made on the Internet goes and if we could keep some of it in Hungary."
akhatri_aus 12y ago
Something quite interesting in the article is that it was intended to be a telecommunications tax and ended up being perceived as an internet tax. In some countries there are already telecommunications taxes/duties that would also be 'internet tax' I guess the phrasing can be a big deal.
- eperfa 12y ago
  Hungary already has a separate telecommunication tax paid after every minute of phone calls and every sent message (SMS or MMS). The telco providers (T-Mobile, Telenor and Vodafon are the three major players here) were supposed to pay this from their own profit without making the customers pay for it, but that is of course not how the market works. The current proposed internet tax would be based on the amount of data transfer.
amelius 12y ago
Why do taxes always have to be so artificial? The reason to have income tax is to have people who can afford it contribute to society. I can see how that is a good thing. The reason to introduce an internet tax is what? To only have people who make enough money use the internet? What kind of nonsense is that? Please, let us agree that whenever a new tax is introduced, it is justified. And perhaps lawmakers should ask system/OS programmers for help, because they actually can come up with good and fair rules to make complex interacting systems work as they should.
- jp555 12y ago
  "The reason to have income tax is to have people who can afford it contribute to society." I don't think this is why we have income tax. All taxes are artificial. They're artificial rules inserted into the natural market, like how we put a bit into a horse's mouth so we can influence it's behaviour. I think the better question for any tax is: are we putting the bit into the horse's ass? It seems to me this proposal to tax bandwidth was more like that; it's just bad policy.
  - lmm 12y ago
    Income tax is the exception to that. We tax income not to change behaviour but to not change behaviour; if we need x amount of revenue, a progressive tax on income is the way to collect that that has the least impact on the populace.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      Taxation is about plucking the goose so as to get the most feathers, with the least squawking. Nothing more. So the goose squawked, and they backed down.
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
    - jp555 12y ago
      Then why do we tax consumption and capital as well? I agree with you but feel it's more a balancing of policy to manage the complex mix of our intentions as a society.
edem 12y ago
For most people who were protesting this proposal was the last straw and what you can't see from these posts that people were saying "Orban get lost!" and "Down with the corrupt government!" during those events. People started talking about a much needed referendum to get rid of Orban and his corrupt retinue so after the first protest this started to be about much more than the internet tax. This momentum is broken now since we got what we wanted initially. We'll see what happens next.
- AlyssaRowan 12y ago
  Indeed, that might be why, but I didn't think he was particularly worried about public opinion at this stage. Maybe it's next year's election looming? Still, I'm concerned about how that's going to go. I have family members over there. I've Heard Stories about Viktor Orbán. I've made sure they have an emergency exit strategy if things go any further south.
- rektide 12y ago
  Do you have any articles you would point to that describe the governmental machinations? You pose this as a part of a larger arc, and I'd love to see more effort done to make it clear what that arc is, what this is a part of. I did a little digging around for articles on the 27th (as that wonderful picture of the protests made the round, https://twitter.com/RyanHeathWriter/status/527406811792805888 https://twitter.com/RyanHeathWriter/status/52740681179280588...). I ran into Slow and Steady: Hungary's Media Clampdown which seemed a reasonable enough job at illustrating that this isn't just a vie against the internet or a vie for revenue, it's part of a longer programme very deliberately creating Soft Censorship, and installing new undemocratic ways for the politicos to grab onto power. https://www.ifex.org/hungary/2014/07/28/slow_steady/ https://www.ifex.org/hungary/2014/07/28/slow_steady/
  - j2kun 12y ago
    There is also the erection of a monument in Budapest implying that Hungary did not comply with the Nazis (bordering on Holocaust denial, iirc).
  - afterburner 12y ago
shangxiao 12y ago
An internet tax? That sounds like something that the Australian government would conjure up [1]. [1] http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/secret-government-briefing-admits-metadata-law-cost-and-warns-of-internet-tax-campaign-20141030-11e1v8.html http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/secret...
- pessimizer 12y ago
  That's not an internet tax as much as full surveillance over the internet. I'd take a tax over that any day.
  - shangxiao 12y ago
    It's actually both - surveillance and we will have to pay for it
dudeson 12y ago
One of the very few times that protesting was effective.
dpweb 12y ago
Tax the things that have an associated social cost, like fast/low nutrition food.
- jotm 12y ago
  Please reconsider that in light of the fact that the tax is government income: they will categorize everything they can - even some vegetables and fruits, I bet - as low nutrition food and fast food.
- delecti 12y ago
  At the same time, you don't want to tax things that are disproportionately consumed by the poorer members of society.
- spyder 12y ago
  This already exists in Hungary: http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2011/06/22/hungary-to-tax-foods-it-thinks-unhealthy/ http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2011/06/22/hungary-to-ta...
atleta 12y ago
Cancelled, well not really. The PM Orban's reaction was the following: - the tax cannot be introduced given the current reactions. - people question the rationale behind this whole thing - the whole argument went off track He also said that they'll start a "national consultation" about the topic. Now a "national consultation" (invented by them a few years ago) means that they send out a paper via snail mail to every citizen who is eligible for voting (around 8 million out of 10). The questions are phrased manipulatively. We won't see a clear question like "Would you like to pay this tax YES/NO" option. It is usually it is phrased in a form like "Some people think this thing is good because blblablabla, while others think this is not that good because blablabla". Now it is always phrased in a very manipulative way and contains biased arguments. I mean arguments (i.e. campaigning) on the questionnaire itself. Then of course no one controls or oversees the processing of the collected questionnaires. So it looks like a referendum but it's a plot device, a persuasion device to show fake support. The result can (and will) be manipulated, interpreted at will by the government. The guy in charge of the 'consultation' is Tamas Deutsch, who previously called the protesters stinky bugs (while he also didn't agree with the idea of the tax). Also, FIDESZ (Orban's party) regularly and outrageously censor their FB page. They delete opposing but polite comments, ban users. This happened to me after the first protest when their reaction was that they are open to arguments and discussion but reject vandalism (two windows of their empty HQ were broken by 5 people). I made a try. Posted 2 comments, got banned (comments deleted). (edit: formatting) So while it is a major result for the people in Hungary, it by no means is a final victory.
tn13 12y ago
I am surprised that US government has not got this tax idea before Hungary. After all only rich people use Internet more while the poor and welfare dependent people dont use much of internet.
goulash5577 12y ago
USA law is the Patriot Act which EFF dot org says is used mostly for 'low level' drug caes and not the intended targets. Cyprus. redacted Hungary needs a reason to monitor and peek at you. So, a small tax. Famous USA gangster Al Capone never convicted for murder, but he was convicted for evasion of tax laws. Allegedly some say the laws were passed just for the famous gangster. Why did the USA invade in the middle east? Supposedly the 'internet forgery' Italian letter, which would be taxed by the HUNGARY INTERNET TAX. Technical question: What happens if there is a DNS hijacking on the country level like before? Or some high bandwidth sent from the botnets to YOUR PERSONAL COMPUTER? Pay up Hungary because that RUSSIAN 'assistant sofware' makes for high bandwidth. The video cassete manufacturers will make sure that HUNGARY NETFLIX dies an early death. Pay up Hungary!

358 points by dan1234 12y ago

akos 12y ago

I'm Hungarian and I can assure that this move is a beautiful temporization from our government. They proposed this tax to herd the attention from the 'banning scandal'.[1] And now from one moment to the other, they are heroes. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-usa-hungary-idUSKCN0I921220141020 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/20/us-usa-hungary-idU...

theGimp 12y ago

Last time the proposed tax was posted [1], a lot of people thought it was a distraction from Hungary's international relationships -- specifically its increasing reliance on Russia. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8491882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8491882

narag 12y ago
It doesn't seem wise to give people against you a reason to rise, gather, be visible and reward the protest with a decision reversal. Now you can expect similar demostrations whenever you step the line.
- spindritf 12y ago
  Or people feel satisfied with the cancelled tax and the energy for protest is safely released.
  - pestaa 12y ago
    Most of the protesters were civilized and informed. A few aggressors threw hardware at the windows, but I wouldn't say the overall tension against the Hungarian government has diminished.
- omeid2 12y ago
  Peopling gathering and protesting before decision makers with the expectation of change isn't something new, every protest is a little revolution, and they go back as far as history. So giving people a personal issue to protest can be a pretty fair tool to distract them from other problems at greater scale. Dooes Hungary's Government needs to distract it's people? that is another question.
- Fuxy 12y ago
  The difference between some protests and a revolution is listening to the people so backing down was a wise decision. If he wouldn't have backed down it could have easily turned into a revolution I'm certain this is not the only cause of people gathering in the streets it's just the last straw. The law was foolish but backing down was a good choice. This is a great example of a badly informed leader that doesn't understand this "internet" thing trying to squeeze more tax money out of its citizenry. Never attempt to tax or regulate something you don't fully understand.
crdoconnor 12y ago
That doesn't make a lot of sense unless there was some news released during the period of the tax which they wanted to bury. The denial of entry of a few people to the US doesn't really seem like it would qualify. Maybe they signed TTIP and I didn't notice...

middleclick 12y ago

What were the politicians thinking when they decided to tax the Internet?

patzal 12y ago
one possible explanation is that it was just a communication trick, to make people talk about this instead of the corruption scandal which resulted in government officials being banned from entering the US. http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2014/10/17/the-us-cancels-visas-for-hungarians-involved-in-corruption/ http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2014/10/17/the-us-cancel...
pestaa 12y ago
To distract the public opinion from talking about high priority officers being forbidden from entering the USA.
- xxs 12y ago
  The technique is known as smoke&mirrors.
eidyia 12y ago
politics is like a magic trick, "hey look here while am doing something else" only with a much less impressive finale, am afraid manipulation is a normal tactic =[
spyder 12y ago
Probably they were just searching for things that don't have some extra tax (above the already existing %27 VAT), and they found this weird Internet thing on that list. Also today the PM said: "We need to find an answer to the question where the giant extra profit made on the Internet goes and if we could keep some of it in Hungary."

akhatri_aus 12y ago

Something quite interesting in the article is that it was intended to be a telecommunications tax and ended up being perceived as an internet tax. In some countries there are already telecommunications taxes/duties that would also be 'internet tax' I guess the phrasing can be a big deal.

eperfa 12y ago
Hungary already has a separate telecommunication tax paid after every minute of phone calls and every sent message (SMS or MMS). The telco providers (T-Mobile, Telenor and Vodafon are the three major players here) were supposed to pay this from their own profit without making the customers pay for it, but that is of course not how the market works. The current proposed internet tax would be based on the amount of data transfer.

amelius 12y ago

Why do taxes always have to be so artificial? The reason to have income tax is to have people who can afford it contribute to society. I can see how that is a good thing. The reason to introduce an internet tax is what? To only have people who make enough money use the internet? What kind of nonsense is that? Please, let us agree that whenever a new tax is introduced, it is justified. And perhaps lawmakers should ask system/OS programmers for help, because they actually can come up with good and fair rules to make complex interacting systems work as they should.

jp555 12y ago
"The reason to have income tax is to have people who can afford it contribute to society." I don't think this is why we have income tax. All taxes are artificial. They're artificial rules inserted into the natural market, like how we put a bit into a horse's mouth so we can influence it's behaviour. I think the better question for any tax is: are we putting the bit into the horse's ass? It seems to me this proposal to tax bandwidth was more like that; it's just bad policy.
- lmm 12y ago
  Income tax is the exception to that. We tax income not to change behaviour but to not change behaviour; if we need x amount of revenue, a progressive tax on income is the way to collect that that has the least impact on the populace.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    Taxation is about plucking the goose so as to get the most feathers, with the least squawking. Nothing more. So the goose squawked, and they backed down.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - jp555 12y ago
    Then why do we tax consumption and capital as well? I agree with you but feel it's more a balancing of policy to manage the complex mix of our intentions as a society.

edem 12y ago

For most people who were protesting this proposal was the last straw and what you can't see from these posts that people were saying "Orban get lost!" and "Down with the corrupt government!" during those events. People started talking about a much needed referendum to get rid of Orban and his corrupt retinue so after the first protest this started to be about much more than the internet tax. This momentum is broken now since we got what we wanted initially. We'll see what happens next.

AlyssaRowan 12y ago
Indeed, that might be why, but I didn't think he was particularly worried about public opinion at this stage. Maybe it's next year's election looming? Still, I'm concerned about how that's going to go. I have family members over there. I've Heard Stories about Viktor Orbán. I've made sure they have an emergency exit strategy if things go any further south.
rektide 12y ago
Do you have any articles you would point to that describe the governmental machinations? You pose this as a part of a larger arc, and I'd love to see more effort done to make it clear what that arc is, what this is a part of. I did a little digging around for articles on the 27th (as that wonderful picture of the protests made the round, https://twitter.com/RyanHeathWriter/status/527406811792805888 https://twitter.com/RyanHeathWriter/status/52740681179280588...). I ran into Slow and Steady: Hungary's Media Clampdown which seemed a reasonable enough job at illustrating that this isn't just a vie against the internet or a vie for revenue, it's part of a longer programme very deliberately creating Soft Censorship, and installing new undemocratic ways for the politicos to grab onto power. https://www.ifex.org/hungary/2014/07/28/slow_steady/ https://www.ifex.org/hungary/2014/07/28/slow_steady/
- j2kun 12y ago
  There is also the erection of a monument in Budapest implying that Hungary did not comply with the Nazis (bordering on Holocaust denial, iirc).
- afterburner 12y ago

shangxiao 12y ago

An internet tax? That sounds like something that the Australian government would conjure up [1]. [1] http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/secret-government-briefing-admits-metadata-law-cost-and-warns-of-internet-tax-campaign-20141030-11e1v8.html http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/secret...

pessimizer 12y ago
That's not an internet tax as much as full surveillance over the internet. I'd take a tax over that any day.
- shangxiao 12y ago
  It's actually both - surveillance and we will have to pay for it

dudeson 12y ago

One of the very few times that protesting was effective.

dpweb 12y ago

Tax the things that have an associated social cost, like fast/low nutrition food.

jotm 12y ago
Please reconsider that in light of the fact that the tax is government income: they will categorize everything they can - even some vegetables and fruits, I bet - as low nutrition food and fast food.
delecti 12y ago
At the same time, you don't want to tax things that are disproportionately consumed by the poorer members of society.
spyder 12y ago
This already exists in Hungary: http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2011/06/22/hungary-to-tax-foods-it-thinks-unhealthy/ http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/2011/06/22/hungary-to-ta...

atleta 12y ago

Cancelled, well not really. The PM Orban's reaction was the following: - the tax cannot be introduced given the current reactions. - people question the rationale behind this whole thing - the whole argument went off track He also said that they'll start a "national consultation" about the topic. Now a "national consultation" (invented by them a few years ago) means that they send out a paper via snail mail to every citizen who is eligible for voting (around 8 million out of 10). The questions are phrased manipulatively. We won't see a clear question like "Would you like to pay this tax YES/NO" option. It is usually it is phrased in a form like "Some people think this thing is good because blblablabla, while others think this is not that good because blablabla". Now it is always phrased in a very manipulative way and contains biased arguments. I mean arguments (i.e. campaigning) on the questionnaire itself. Then of course no one controls or oversees the processing of the collected questionnaires. So it looks like a referendum but it's a plot device, a persuasion device to show fake support. The result can (and will) be manipulated, interpreted at will by the government. The guy in charge of the 'consultation' is Tamas Deutsch, who previously called the protesters stinky bugs (while he also didn't agree with the idea of the tax). Also, FIDESZ (Orban's party) regularly and outrageously censor their FB page. They delete opposing but polite comments, ban users. This happened to me after the first protest when their reaction was that they are open to arguments and discussion but reject vandalism (two windows of their empty HQ were broken by 5 people). I made a try. Posted 2 comments, got banned (comments deleted). (edit: formatting) So while it is a major result for the people in Hungary, it by no means is a final victory.

tn13 12y ago

I am surprised that US government has not got this tax idea before Hungary. After all only rich people use Internet more while the poor and welfare dependent people dont use much of internet.

goulash5577 12y ago

USA law is the Patriot Act which EFF dot org says is used mostly for 'low level' drug caes and not the intended targets. Cyprus. redacted Hungary needs a reason to monitor and peek at you. So, a small tax. Famous USA gangster Al Capone never convicted for murder, but he was convicted for evasion of tax laws. Allegedly some say the laws were passed just for the famous gangster. Why did the USA invade in the middle east? Supposedly the 'internet forgery' Italian letter, which would be taxed by the HUNGARY INTERNET TAX. Technical question: What happens if there is a DNS hijacking on the country level like before? Or some high bandwidth sent from the botnets to YOUR PERSONAL COMPUTER? Pay up Hungary because that RUSSIAN 'assistant sofware' makes for high bandwidth. The video cassete manufacturers will make sure that HUNGARY NETFLIX dies an early death. Pay up Hungary!