24 ms·

I am incredibly grateful to Cook for this, not least because of how it will affect young gay people. When I was a child, I felt generally good about myself. I

I am incredibly grateful to Cook for this, not least because of how it will affect young gay people. When I was a child, I felt generally good about myself. I was reasonably smart, well-spoken, curious, and so on, and I wanted to do something important with my life. Some nagging part of me suspected I was gay from very early on, but I resisted it intensely. I wasn't really afraid of being mistreated, although I probably should have been. People were already calling me names so I wasn't worried about that. More important for me was my sense that being gay meant being marginal. There hasn't been a gay President, and at least when I was a child there weren't many gay people visible to me at all. The image of gay people presented to me were not powerful, focused on frivolous things, and consumed by attitude and lifestyle. If I wanted to do something important, I couldn't possibly be gay. It just didn't fit. Knowing that the CEO of not only the most powerful company, but also the most admirable company, is gay would have helped me enormously. I always wanted apple products even before I could afford them, and this would have meant a clearly visible path forward. I can't imagine how happy this must be making some confused young people, given how happy it's making me right now.

mkr-hn 12y ago
It looks like we had similar experiences. I had no model of "gay" that resembled me, and almost everyone around me was aggressively straight. Even considering the idea of being gay made me uncomfortable. So much changed in the last year that I felt safe thinking about it, and it was obvious in retrospect.
- tormeh 12y ago
  Well, there's always Newton. We don't really know his sexual orientation, but it was probably either gay or asexual.
  - mkr-hn 12y ago
    That's a lot like when people wheel out Ada Lovelace as a token example of women in tech. It doesn't help people now who don't see anyone who shows they're allowed to be a part of something.
  - selimthegrim 12y ago
    Newton did make advances towards women as a schoolboy in Lincoln, but never persisted.
tommorris 12y ago
Agreed. After I came out, one of the best things was getting an email from an 18-year-old guy who had read my blog saying that he'd never spoken to or read anything from a gay person in technology and it was cool to read something from someone who as a programmer and geek came from the same perspective as him. He then said he'd gotten the courage to tell his parents from that. Which left me feeling amazing for about a week. Tim Cook's article will do the same for young gay techies but on a much grander scale. :)
- emcrazyone 12y ago
  why "come out." Why do you feel you need to tell others you're gay? I don't feel like I need to tell everyone I'm straight. I never understood this. You're gay, so what? What is this thing with some people feeling like they just have to tell others about their personal sexual orientation; especially in the context of business article. This has nothing to do with Apple. If they wanted to report on Apple's equality they could have left things with the two sentences: "The company I am so fortunate to lead has long advocated for human rights and equality for all. We’ve taken a strong stand in support of a workplace equality bill before Congress, just as we stood for marriage equality in our home state of California." and be done with it.
  - stackoverflow11 12y ago
    > why "come out." Why do you feel you need to tell others you're gay? I don't feel like I need to tell everyone I'm straight. because it's assumed that you're straight unless told otherwise.
  - jackmaney 12y ago
    Gay people can tell whoever they want that they're gay. What follows is a complete and exhaustive list of things that you can do about it:
  - rmc 12y ago
    Many in the heterosexual community really dislike gay people.
  - 12y ago
dwild 12y ago
At first I didn't like the news. Tim Cook is gay, so what? I though 5 seconds about it and then I realized how actually we still need this... we still need to remind people that there's nothing wrong with being gay. That's sad that we are still at this point.
- angersock 12y ago
  Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.
  - thenmar 12y ago
    Brendan Eich donated money with the sole goal of denying equal rights to people based on their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion, but I think there is something wrong with that. And I suspect you would too if it were you whose rights were being taken away. Edit: Eich supported Proposition 8 which was _ruled unconstitutional_ for violating the Equal Protection Clause. Yes, his support was non-criminal, but he was fundamentally supporting something wrong, both morally and legally.
    - angersock 12y ago
      Eich participated in a public system in an approved way at a political level, did so without letting his politics get in the way of his personal or professional life, and made functional programming ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with what he did given that he didn't let that view (in the abstract) color his personal interactions. And, let us note, it's all speculation on this point as to what or why he did it, because the man himself hasn't said anything on the matter--mostly because of the gay hate brigade rallied against him. By contrast, Tim Cook continued contracts with Foxconn with the sole goal of minimizing production costs by using underpaid overworked labor--and if you look at Apple close enough, yeah, there's some nastiness there. He's a solid operations guy (clearly!), but has directly supported policies that have harmed both our industry and workers abroad. I'm likely going to get downvoted into oblivion (again, and in hilarious underscoring of my point).
greenpinguin 12y ago
well said. I think this is such a great symbolic moment. It's so hard to come to terms with your 'otherness' when you're young. The biggest step is admitting to yourself that you're different.
- golgappi 12y ago
  > The biggest step is admitting to yourself that you're different. I'm straight, so I probably don't get it. So I might be wrong. But it feels like that's the wrong way to go about it. I see gays and lesbians regularly in public places and they don't seem too rare to me. Instilling this feeling of being different may only make it harder for people. Your sexual orientation shouldn't make you feel different. No matter whom you're attracted to, there are a lot of people out there who are attracted to the same.
wefarrell 12y ago
"There hasn't been a gay President" http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president/ http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president...
- untog 12y ago
  Shrug. There hasn't been a publicly gay President, which is what would in the context the OP is discussing.
  - smcl 12y ago
    If by "President" you mean the equivalent "head of a country's government" role then Iceland elected an openly gay Prime Minister in 2009[0]. But I'm guessing you're all meaning "US President" [0] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7862804.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7862804.stm
    - gknoy 12y ago
      That's neat! You're right, though, the OP was likely focusing on a US president. Not many US citizens look at other countries' heads of state as a role model to the same degree as our own.
  - jacquesm 12y ago
    NL doesn't have a president but our PM is openly gay and as far as I know nobody cares.
- mkr-hn 12y ago
  Homosexuality was still a crime in his day (up to 2003), so I doubt it was well-known if this is true.
- psuter 12y ago
  What an excellent article, thanks for sharing. "Despite such evidence, one reason why Americans find it hard to believe Buchanan could have been gay is that we have a touching belief in progress. Our high school history textbooks’ overall story line is, “We started out great and have been getting better ever since,” more or less automatically. Thus we must be more tolerant now than we were way back in the middle of the 19th century! Buchanan could not have been gay then, else we would not seem more tolerant now."
netcan 12y ago
We've gone through an incredible process in a single generations. Truly incredible and blazingly fast. It hasn't been everywhere, but it certainly has been global. In many ways it seemed to have very high hurdles. Homosexuality and queerness elicits an unexplainably intense anger in some people. It is potently threatening. On the other hand, overcoming homophobia had a relatively small hurdle to get over because there was no intergenerational complexity like racism and xenophobia or deeply rooted structural institutions like sexism. Homosexuals were already everywhere in secret. A homosexual didn't need to overcome to become CEO, he was already a CEO. He just needed to come out. A part of the precess that I think is happening now nearer the cutting edge is post revolutionary normalization. After the gay parades and overt homosexuality that forced the issue into centre stage what is needed is a homosexuality that can be worn lightly outside of the spheres were it is naturally central (like romantic relationships). Tim Cook is gay, but he's mostly the CEO of Apple. His gayness is not the central part of his public identity and not being public about it up till now is not being closeted. It's really a great thing that happened, and is happening. I'm glad to be part of the generation that made it happened, a gift to those who will come after, to those who will not have to suffer.
mklim 12y ago
Agreed. I was in a similar boat. My first exposure to the term "lesbian" was a flash cartoon that had a throwaway gag about a butch woman who lived in the sewer and ate children—I remember going home and crying because I strongly suspected that that's what I was, once the other kids explained what the term meant, and I didn't want to end up having to move underground and away from all my friends once I grew up. (This is hilarious in retrospect, but at the time I was really distressed.) It's really good that young gay people to have so many prominent and positive role models now, and easy access to information on the subject via the internet. Can't imagine my story happening to anyone today.
- dayjah 12y ago
  > It's really good that young gay people to have so many prominent and positive role models now, Agree! Though as an avid sports fan, I'm disappointed in the sports world for not embracing this topic. With so many professional athletes odds are in favour of many a house hold name being gay, yet there are only a small handful of sports people that are openly gay. It is inspiring that Tim Cook has done this, and I really hope top athletes look to this and follow suit. Tim Cook will positively influence many, but not as many as say, Michael Jordan or Christiano Ronaldo. I suppose this is yet another example of our industry being thought leaders.
  - redthrowaway 12y ago
    YCP[1] is doing a lot to help reduce barriers in the sports world, and has had a lot of big-name athletes come out in support of them (although not, to my knowledge, actually coming out--yet) [1] http://youcanplayproject.org/ http://youcanplayproject.org/
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- haakon 12y ago
  > This is hilarious in retrospect I know what you mean. Lots of childhood things are silly to look back on. But "hilarious" is just not a word I'd use about a child terrified of her future, even if it was exaggerated.
robomartin 12y ago
I applaud this. I am not gay. Conventional family, kids, etc. Oh, yes, I am also an atheist which, today, in the US, is worst than being gay in some circles. As I am sure a lot of you know, the reality show Survivor features a male homosexual couple this year. Bravo! We watch the show with our kids every week. Yes, they ask questions. The little ones cover their eyes when anybody kisses on TV anyway. Seeing two men kiss on the lips and show affection is, well, weird to them. You just don't see that on mainstream TV these days. We simply tell them that what they are seeing is perfectly normal and that these are two people who love each other just as much as mom and dad do. They say "ok" and still go "ewwwww!" When anyone kisses on the show. The part of Tim Cook's statement that is disappointing to me is where he says "I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me.". Of course, as an atheist I tend to be particularly sensitive to such statements. If we leave that aside, it is simply a fact that god and religion --world wide-- have been brutal to the gay community. Historically this has ranged from denouncement all the way up to torture and murder. And that stands on it's own, it's a historical fact that has nothing whatsoever to do with the messenger being an atheist. Anyhow, I am glad he decided to come out as the role model he surely is. Society has far to go. This helps. Every little step helps.
- jshevek 12y ago
  Several statements he made in this post seemed weirdly manipulative to me, and that was one of them. I mean, its great that he chooses and advocates the view that homosexuality can be a 'gift'. That it can be a positive thing! Props for that! But the phrasing...does he really believe that the imaginary being he worships chose for him to be gay? Like the creator of the universe is really sitting there saying "oh, I'll make this one straight! and this one bi! and this one gay!"
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
    - jshevek 12y ago
      >> If he truly does believe in God, then, knowing for sure that he is gay, he has to believe that God made him gay. No, not at all. This is only one very narrow view of how a deity may function, or the kind of relationship a diety may have with the universe, or the humans within it.
alexbecker 12y ago
I'm not sure Apple is "the most admirable company", or even in the running.
- millstone 12y ago
  Well, they are! http://fortune.com/worlds-most-admired-companies/ http://fortune.com/worlds-most-admired-companies/
  - alexbecker 12y ago
    Admired =/= admirable. The latter means deserving of admiration.
    - jshevek 12y ago
      It is telling that the poster who confused admired with admirable linked to a list which placed amazon at #2, and included coca-cola, disney, nike, and the like.
    - mwfunk 12y ago
      If you admire someone, then by definition you consider them admirable. So, lots and lots of people consider them admirable. You may not, but that doesn't mean that other people can't have different opinions. It also doesn't mean they're wrong and you're right or vice versa, since we're all unreliable narrators of the world around us.
      - alexbecker 12y ago
        Yes, I'm just pointing out that those people (like me) may be wrong.
      - sarciszewski 12y ago
        Here, I'll translate: Admirable is a moral judgment. Admired means that "the others" have drank the kool-aid. (Sheeple, etc. etc.)
thisrod 12y ago
It's an interesting coincidence for Mr Cook to come out alongside the movie adaptation of Alan Turing: The Enigma. When I was an undergrad in the 90s, that book was the only obvious story about an out geek, and it was far more cathartic than comforting. After that, some happier stories started to appear. Eric Allman and Marshall McKusick dropped by the university queer room incognito. There were some movies, Beautiful Thing and Get Real, where people were gay and nothing much happened. That was a big deal then, but I assumed it would all sound corny 20 years later.
ekianjo 12y ago
> but also the most admirable company, Really ? Did you have to say that to make your point ? What's so admirable about Apple ? Jobs has been lying constantly about competition, lied about being the first innovators in so many of their products, has pressured other companies to prevent poaching Apple employees to keep salaries as low as he could, and the list does not end there. Fine, you can love Apple as much as you want, but calling it the "most admirable company" out there is rubber-breaking stretch.
iamleppert 12y ago
are you single? ;-)

mkr-hn 12y ago

It looks like we had similar experiences. I had no model of "gay" that resembled me, and almost everyone around me was aggressively straight. Even considering the idea of being gay made me uncomfortable. So much changed in the last year that I felt safe thinking about it, and it was obvious in retrospect.

tormeh 12y ago
Well, there's always Newton. We don't really know his sexual orientation, but it was probably either gay or asexual.
- mkr-hn 12y ago
  That's a lot like when people wheel out Ada Lovelace as a token example of women in tech. It doesn't help people now who don't see anyone who shows they're allowed to be a part of something.
- selimthegrim 12y ago
  Newton did make advances towards women as a schoolboy in Lincoln, but never persisted.

tommorris 12y ago

Agreed. After I came out, one of the best things was getting an email from an 18-year-old guy who had read my blog saying that he'd never spoken to or read anything from a gay person in technology and it was cool to read something from someone who as a programmer and geek came from the same perspective as him. He then said he'd gotten the courage to tell his parents from that. Which left me feeling amazing for about a week. Tim Cook's article will do the same for young gay techies but on a much grander scale. :)

emcrazyone 12y ago
why "come out." Why do you feel you need to tell others you're gay? I don't feel like I need to tell everyone I'm straight. I never understood this. You're gay, so what? What is this thing with some people feeling like they just have to tell others about their personal sexual orientation; especially in the context of business article. This has nothing to do with Apple. If they wanted to report on Apple's equality they could have left things with the two sentences: "The company I am so fortunate to lead has long advocated for human rights and equality for all. We’ve taken a strong stand in support of a workplace equality bill before Congress, just as we stood for marriage equality in our home state of California." and be done with it.
- stackoverflow11 12y ago
  > why "come out." Why do you feel you need to tell others you're gay? I don't feel like I need to tell everyone I'm straight. because it's assumed that you're straight unless told otherwise.
- jackmaney 12y ago
  Gay people can tell whoever they want that they're gay. What follows is a complete and exhaustive list of things that you can do about it:
- rmc 12y ago
  Many in the heterosexual community really dislike gay people.
- 12y ago

dwild 12y ago

At first I didn't like the news. Tim Cook is gay, so what? I though 5 seconds about it and then I realized how actually we still need this... we still need to remind people that there's nothing wrong with being gay. That's sad that we are still at this point.

angersock 12y ago
Yep. Now if only we could remind people that there's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion. After all, Brendan Eich has done more for computing than Cook ever will.
- thenmar 12y ago
  Brendan Eich donated money with the sole goal of denying equal rights to people based on their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion, but I think there is something wrong with that. And I suspect you would too if it were you whose rights were being taken away. Edit: Eich supported Proposition 8 which was _ruled unconstitutional_ for violating the Equal Protection Clause. Yes, his support was non-criminal, but he was fundamentally supporting something wrong, both morally and legally.
  - angersock 12y ago
    Eich participated in a public system in an approved way at a political level, did so without letting his politics get in the way of his personal or professional life, and made functional programming ubiquitous. There's nothing wrong with what he did given that he didn't let that view (in the abstract) color his personal interactions. And, let us note, it's all speculation on this point as to what or why he did it, because the man himself hasn't said anything on the matter--mostly because of the gay hate brigade rallied against him. By contrast, Tim Cook continued contracts with Foxconn with the sole goal of minimizing production costs by using underpaid overworked labor--and if you look at Apple close enough, yeah, there's some nastiness there. He's a solid operations guy (clearly!), but has directly supported policies that have harmed both our industry and workers abroad. I'm likely going to get downvoted into oblivion (again, and in hilarious underscoring of my point).

greenpinguin 12y ago

well said. I think this is such a great symbolic moment. It's so hard to come to terms with your 'otherness' when you're young. The biggest step is admitting to yourself that you're different.

golgappi 12y ago
> The biggest step is admitting to yourself that you're different. I'm straight, so I probably don't get it. So I might be wrong. But it feels like that's the wrong way to go about it. I see gays and lesbians regularly in public places and they don't seem too rare to me. Instilling this feeling of being different may only make it harder for people. Your sexual orientation shouldn't make you feel different. No matter whom you're attracted to, there are a lot of people out there who are attracted to the same.

wefarrell 12y ago

"There hasn't been a gay President" http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president/ http://www.salon.com/2012/05/14/our_real_first_gay_president...

untog 12y ago
Shrug. There hasn't been a publicly gay President, which is what would in the context the OP is discussing.
- smcl 12y ago
  If by "President" you mean the equivalent "head of a country's government" role then Iceland elected an openly gay Prime Minister in 2009[0]. But I'm guessing you're all meaning "US President" [0] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7862804.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7862804.stm
  - gknoy 12y ago
    That's neat! You're right, though, the OP was likely focusing on a US president. Not many US citizens look at other countries' heads of state as a role model to the same degree as our own.
- jacquesm 12y ago
  NL doesn't have a president but our PM is openly gay and as far as I know nobody cares.
mkr-hn 12y ago
Homosexuality was still a crime in his day (up to 2003), so I doubt it was well-known if this is true.
psuter 12y ago
What an excellent article, thanks for sharing. "Despite such evidence, one reason why Americans find it hard to believe Buchanan could have been gay is that we have a touching belief in progress. Our high school history textbooks’ overall story line is, “We started out great and have been getting better ever since,” more or less automatically. Thus we must be more tolerant now than we were way back in the middle of the 19th century! Buchanan could not have been gay then, else we would not seem more tolerant now."

netcan 12y ago

We've gone through an incredible process in a single generations. Truly incredible and blazingly fast. It hasn't been everywhere, but it certainly has been global. In many ways it seemed to have very high hurdles. Homosexuality and queerness elicits an unexplainably intense anger in some people. It is potently threatening. On the other hand, overcoming homophobia had a relatively small hurdle to get over because there was no intergenerational complexity like racism and xenophobia or deeply rooted structural institutions like sexism. Homosexuals were already everywhere in secret. A homosexual didn't need to overcome to become CEO, he was already a CEO. He just needed to come out. A part of the precess that I think is happening now nearer the cutting edge is post revolutionary normalization. After the gay parades and overt homosexuality that forced the issue into centre stage what is needed is a homosexuality that can be worn lightly outside of the spheres were it is naturally central (like romantic relationships). Tim Cook is gay, but he's mostly the CEO of Apple. His gayness is not the central part of his public identity and not being public about it up till now is not being closeted. It's really a great thing that happened, and is happening. I'm glad to be part of the generation that made it happened, a gift to those who will come after, to those who will not have to suffer.

mklim 12y ago

Agreed. I was in a similar boat. My first exposure to the term "lesbian" was a flash cartoon that had a throwaway gag about a butch woman who lived in the sewer and ate children—I remember going home and crying because I strongly suspected that that's what I was, once the other kids explained what the term meant, and I didn't want to end up having to move underground and away from all my friends once I grew up. (This is hilarious in retrospect, but at the time I was really distressed.) It's really good that young gay people to have so many prominent and positive role models now, and easy access to information on the subject via the internet. Can't imagine my story happening to anyone today.

dayjah 12y ago
> It's really good that young gay people to have so many prominent and positive role models now, Agree! Though as an avid sports fan, I'm disappointed in the sports world for not embracing this topic. With so many professional athletes odds are in favour of many a house hold name being gay, yet there are only a small handful of sports people that are openly gay. It is inspiring that Tim Cook has done this, and I really hope top athletes look to this and follow suit. Tim Cook will positively influence many, but not as many as say, Michael Jordan or Christiano Ronaldo. I suppose this is yet another example of our industry being thought leaders.
- redthrowaway 12y ago
  YCP[1] is doing a lot to help reduce barriers in the sports world, and has had a lot of big-name athletes come out in support of them (although not, to my knowledge, actually coming out--yet) [1] http://youcanplayproject.org/ http://youcanplayproject.org/
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
haakon 12y ago
> This is hilarious in retrospect I know what you mean. Lots of childhood things are silly to look back on. But "hilarious" is just not a word I'd use about a child terrified of her future, even if it was exaggerated.

robomartin 12y ago

I applaud this. I am not gay. Conventional family, kids, etc. Oh, yes, I am also an atheist which, today, in the US, is worst than being gay in some circles. As I am sure a lot of you know, the reality show Survivor features a male homosexual couple this year. Bravo! We watch the show with our kids every week. Yes, they ask questions. The little ones cover their eyes when anybody kisses on TV anyway. Seeing two men kiss on the lips and show affection is, well, weird to them. You just don't see that on mainstream TV these days. We simply tell them that what they are seeing is perfectly normal and that these are two people who love each other just as much as mom and dad do. They say "ok" and still go "ewwwww!" When anyone kisses on the show. The part of Tim Cook's statement that is disappointing to me is where he says "I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me.". Of course, as an atheist I tend to be particularly sensitive to such statements. If we leave that aside, it is simply a fact that god and religion --world wide-- have been brutal to the gay community. Historically this has ranged from denouncement all the way up to torture and murder. And that stands on it's own, it's a historical fact that has nothing whatsoever to do with the messenger being an atheist. Anyhow, I am glad he decided to come out as the role model he surely is. Society has far to go. This helps. Every little step helps.

jshevek 12y ago
Several statements he made in this post seemed weirdly manipulative to me, and that was one of them. I mean, its great that he chooses and advocates the view that homosexuality can be a 'gift'. That it can be a positive thing! Props for that! But the phrasing...does he really believe that the imaginary being he worships chose for him to be gay? Like the creator of the universe is really sitting there saying "oh, I'll make this one straight! and this one bi! and this one gay!"
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
  - jshevek 12y ago
    >> If he truly does believe in God, then, knowing for sure that he is gay, he has to believe that God made him gay. No, not at all. This is only one very narrow view of how a deity may function, or the kind of relationship a diety may have with the universe, or the humans within it.

alexbecker 12y ago

I'm not sure Apple is "the most admirable company", or even in the running.

millstone 12y ago
Well, they are! http://fortune.com/worlds-most-admired-companies/ http://fortune.com/worlds-most-admired-companies/
- alexbecker 12y ago
  Admired =/= admirable. The latter means deserving of admiration.
  - jshevek 12y ago
    It is telling that the poster who confused admired with admirable linked to a list which placed amazon at #2, and included coca-cola, disney, nike, and the like.
  - mwfunk 12y ago
    If you admire someone, then by definition you consider them admirable. So, lots and lots of people consider them admirable. You may not, but that doesn't mean that other people can't have different opinions. It also doesn't mean they're wrong and you're right or vice versa, since we're all unreliable narrators of the world around us.
    - alexbecker 12y ago
      Yes, I'm just pointing out that those people (like me) may be wrong.
    - sarciszewski 12y ago
      Here, I'll translate: Admirable is a moral judgment. Admired means that "the others" have drank the kool-aid. (Sheeple, etc. etc.)

thisrod 12y ago

It's an interesting coincidence for Mr Cook to come out alongside the movie adaptation of Alan Turing: The Enigma. When I was an undergrad in the 90s, that book was the only obvious story about an out geek, and it was far more cathartic than comforting. After that, some happier stories started to appear. Eric Allman and Marshall McKusick dropped by the university queer room incognito. There were some movies, Beautiful Thing and Get Real, where people were gay and nothing much happened. That was a big deal then, but I assumed it would all sound corny 20 years later.

ekianjo 12y ago

> but also the most admirable company, Really ? Did you have to say that to make your point ? What's so admirable about Apple ? Jobs has been lying constantly about competition, lied about being the first innovators in so many of their products, has pressured other companies to prevent poaching Apple employees to keep salaries as low as he could, and the list does not end there. Fine, you can love Apple as much as you want, but calling it the "most admirable company" out there is rubber-breaking stretch.

iamleppert 12y ago

are you single? ;-)