7 ms·

Report Reveals Wider Tracking of Mail in U.S

141 points by ghosh 12y ago

andyzweb 12y ago
every piece of mail in the United States is tracked. Every package, every envelope.
- uptown 12y ago
  And photographed. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirms-photographing-all-us-mail.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirms...
  - SCAQTony 12y ago
    We be living in the Soviet Union now. I tweeted this link and mentioned "uptown" and @HackerNews. thank you for this link, upvote.
  - rhino369 12y ago
    Of course, they have to detect your address with a computer.
- ams6110 12y ago
  But you can still drop a letter into a public mailbox, with no return address. Then only the recipient is tracked.
  - pessimizer 12y ago
    This will be a distant memory once the USPS declares that it's only going to accept eStamps from registered accounts. There will be a cross-platform app, though, so this change will be proclaimed by all media outlets to clearly be superior to all legacy solutions, and a sign of agile, efficient government.
Ricapar 12y ago
It's called a "tracking number" for a reason.
- privong 12y ago
  There is a difference between the USPS tracking mail to ensure it does not get lost and the USPS giving that information to the FBI or other law enforcement agencies.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
diafygi 12y ago
This is a great example of growing executive power at the expense of a company's (in this case the USPS's) credibility. Across most industries, technology and tracking are used to make businesses run more efficiently and provide better services. That's great and definitely adds value. However, law enforcement seems to think that now that companies are collecting all this data, they should have access to it, too, without restriction. The problem is that once these sorts of programs become common knowledge, the companies start being viewed as just an arm of law enforcement. Do you trust the local police? FBI? NSA? No? Then don't trust these companies. The solution to this is not to stop the mail tracking (tracking numbers are an awesome feature), but to curtail the reach and powers of the executive. Law enforcement shouldn't be able to request whatever they want from these company datasets. So how do you fix it? First, the business records laws on which these data requests rely are incredibly antiquated and not meant for huge networks of communications. So a solution is to update these laws to better protect user tracking data when it is in the hands of a company. However, Congress doesn't seem to want to do anything, so the legislative branch is losing power more and more. Second, the judicial branch could step in and rule that these searches are protected under the Fourth Amendment. However, the executive has been claiming privileged on most of these cases, which means they get dragged on for years and years. Kudos to the EFF and ACLU for sticking it out, but the judicial branch is simply not keeping up with executive power grabs. Third, users of the companies can start fuzzing or encrypting their data. In this article, a solution could be for someone to offer an aggregated address to which people can send letters. It's basically a manual VPN or onion-routing technique. Unfortunately, this tactic is very difficult to hide all metadata, so I'd prefer the first two options over asking users to fuzz their data. Disclosure: I volunteer for Restore the Fourth, which is a 501(c)(4) organization advocating for greater barriers to warrantless or broad surveillance. We are currently focusing on getting local cities to pass privacy policies that limit what data local law enforcement can gather and share. EDIT: I realize that the USPS is a part of the government, but it is not an arm of law enforcement. It should still require a warrant to obtain user tracking data from the USPS just like any other business.
- TallGuyShort 12y ago
  Not that it invalidates your point, but USPS is not a company - it's an agency of the federal government, with weird financial implications. There are a lot of things wrong with how the USPS is run, IMO - and this is just one more reason I do not use them for anything other than sending in my ballots or taxes.
VLM 12y ago
I wonder if the mail tracking data is sold to credit reporting agencies. Oh look he got an old fashioned paper bill from his water utility, and then he replied with a letter (payment) from the mailbox across the street exactly 3 days later. How fascinating and presumably useful as a metric, somehow. Marketing agencies would likely be interested. Oh look he's exchanging correspondence with a known estate lawyer, someone must have died, how can we profit off that? I suppose interesting environmental studies could be possible, since at least 90% of my incoming paper mail is garbage. Big Brother doesn't throw away things very often, all CYA you know. I bet a century from now looking at the social network of old fashioned paper Christmas Cards would be interesting genealogy research. (edited to add: Mothers day cards!)
HarryHirsch 12y ago
50000 requests for "mail metadata", no warrant required? You'd like to know just what dangerous crimes were solved with those pieces of data.
rglover 12y ago
Just assume that everything you do in the U.S., anywhere, is being watched or tracked in some way.
- sitkack 12y ago
  It would be patriotic to turn ourselves in for pre-thought-crime, or rather just continue to vote with the status quo and keep our heads down.
hammock 12y ago
Given recent NSA revelations, could good old fashioned sealed envelopes might be more secure than encryption? I wonder if they have a smart, undetectable way of getting into the mail contents itself.
- xkcd-sucks 12y ago
  steam it, open the seal gently, and reseal it? open it destructively and make a new envelope? this is probably the easiest option for a 3-letter agency. soak it in a liquid that doesn't dissolve the ink, photograph the layers of text, and decipher it later? shine a really bright light on it, using a color that isn't well absorbed by the paper but is absorbed by the ink? If there's a way to harden paper mail against even a moderately prepared adversary I'm totally interested in learning about it...
  - evan_ 12y ago
    Something like this maybe: http://www.wired.com/2013/12/better-data-security-nail-polish/ http://www.wired.com/2013/12/better-data-security-nail-polis... Or mail a postcard with a message encrypted by one-time-pad.
- chiph 12y ago
  Before the electronic age, the FBI, CIA and their predecessors would regularly do that. The skills needed to do so without detection might be rare these days (as people retire).
  - maxxxxx 12y ago
    Just wait until some terrorists use only mail to prepare an attack. Then probably every piece of mail will be read to protect us.
    - chiph 12y ago
      Like the anthrax that was sent through the mail starting about a week after 9/11? The attacks killed five people in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks
netcan 12y ago
Someone should figure out what law enforcers are and aren't allowed to do as part of their investigations. They should figure out what people's rights are. Then, they should write it down on a piece of velum. Maybe some more people could sign it.
double0jimb0 12y ago
And who builds the sorting systems for the USPS? The largest defense contractor, Lockheed Martin: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/06/AR2006080600630.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08... Dun dun dun...
lettercarrier 12y ago
Pmg Donahoe says systems don't store address info long term (>30 days) and are not linked nationwide They ask us how to monitize last mile or get new revenue. I suggested giving patrons data on what pieces went through sorters. Have a table view where you see letters processed that day. You could know what will be in your mailbox. You could see history of when stuff gets mailed to you. So many possibilities. USPS really has no profit thinking mindset whatsoever. Coming from telecom it's polar opposite. If bed bath & beyond mails a $5 coupon, ad space on the patrons table view could be sold to linens n things or Wally (like my online bank transactions). This is just the beginning We know (without any help from electrons) who gets arrested, where they work, car they drive, marital status, divorced or about to be, kids, age, political involvement, Prime customer, when they are home and when they are not, animal lover, catalogue orderer/receiver, has parents at home, previous city, tax bill, Cable/telco/direct tv, lawn service/snow removal, ultra rich and ultra poor. We see changes first too, often before they even tell other family members. Imagine a good analyst having at it with just the to/from addresses / names. The USPS has no clue, not even a crumb of a clue, how valuable letters, flats and parcels are to a company who wants to acquire new customers. Ahh.. oh well.. By the way, the USPS takes no taxpayer money...
upofadown 12y ago
This article might be a good rebuttal to claims that totally insecure writing on some paper might somehow be more secure than encryption.

141 points by ghosh 12y ago

andyzweb 12y ago

every piece of mail in the United States is tracked. Every package, every envelope.

uptown 12y ago
And photographed. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirms-photographing-all-us-mail.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/us/postal-service-confirms...
- SCAQTony 12y ago
  We be living in the Soviet Union now. I tweeted this link and mentioned "uptown" and @HackerNews. thank you for this link, upvote.
- rhino369 12y ago
  Of course, they have to detect your address with a computer.
ams6110 12y ago
But you can still drop a letter into a public mailbox, with no return address. Then only the recipient is tracked.
- pessimizer 12y ago
  This will be a distant memory once the USPS declares that it's only going to accept eStamps from registered accounts. There will be a cross-platform app, though, so this change will be proclaimed by all media outlets to clearly be superior to all legacy solutions, and a sign of agile, efficient government.

Ricapar 12y ago

It's called a "tracking number" for a reason.

privong 12y ago
There is a difference between the USPS tracking mail to ensure it does not get lost and the USPS giving that information to the FBI or other law enforcement agencies.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]

diafygi 12y ago

This is a great example of growing executive power at the expense of a company's (in this case the USPS's) credibility. Across most industries, technology and tracking are used to make businesses run more efficiently and provide better services. That's great and definitely adds value. However, law enforcement seems to think that now that companies are collecting all this data, they should have access to it, too, without restriction. The problem is that once these sorts of programs become common knowledge, the companies start being viewed as just an arm of law enforcement. Do you trust the local police? FBI? NSA? No? Then don't trust these companies. The solution to this is not to stop the mail tracking (tracking numbers are an awesome feature), but to curtail the reach and powers of the executive. Law enforcement shouldn't be able to request whatever they want from these company datasets. So how do you fix it? First, the business records laws on which these data requests rely are incredibly antiquated and not meant for huge networks of communications. So a solution is to update these laws to better protect user tracking data when it is in the hands of a company. However, Congress doesn't seem to want to do anything, so the legislative branch is losing power more and more. Second, the judicial branch could step in and rule that these searches are protected under the Fourth Amendment. However, the executive has been claiming privileged on most of these cases, which means they get dragged on for years and years. Kudos to the EFF and ACLU for sticking it out, but the judicial branch is simply not keeping up with executive power grabs. Third, users of the companies can start fuzzing or encrypting their data. In this article, a solution could be for someone to offer an aggregated address to which people can send letters. It's basically a manual VPN or onion-routing technique. Unfortunately, this tactic is very difficult to hide all metadata, so I'd prefer the first two options over asking users to fuzz their data. Disclosure: I volunteer for Restore the Fourth, which is a 501(c)(4) organization advocating for greater barriers to warrantless or broad surveillance. We are currently focusing on getting local cities to pass privacy policies that limit what data local law enforcement can gather and share. EDIT: I realize that the USPS is a part of the government, but it is not an arm of law enforcement. It should still require a warrant to obtain user tracking data from the USPS just like any other business.

TallGuyShort 12y ago
Not that it invalidates your point, but USPS is not a company - it's an agency of the federal government, with weird financial implications. There are a lot of things wrong with how the USPS is run, IMO - and this is just one more reason I do not use them for anything other than sending in my ballots or taxes.

VLM 12y ago

I wonder if the mail tracking data is sold to credit reporting agencies. Oh look he got an old fashioned paper bill from his water utility, and then he replied with a letter (payment) from the mailbox across the street exactly 3 days later. How fascinating and presumably useful as a metric, somehow. Marketing agencies would likely be interested. Oh look he's exchanging correspondence with a known estate lawyer, someone must have died, how can we profit off that? I suppose interesting environmental studies could be possible, since at least 90% of my incoming paper mail is garbage. Big Brother doesn't throw away things very often, all CYA you know. I bet a century from now looking at the social network of old fashioned paper Christmas Cards would be interesting genealogy research. (edited to add: Mothers day cards!)

HarryHirsch 12y ago

50000 requests for "mail metadata", no warrant required? You'd like to know just what dangerous crimes were solved with those pieces of data.

rglover 12y ago

Just assume that everything you do in the U.S., anywhere, is being watched or tracked in some way.

sitkack 12y ago
It would be patriotic to turn ourselves in for pre-thought-crime, or rather just continue to vote with the status quo and keep our heads down.

hammock 12y ago

Given recent NSA revelations, could good old fashioned sealed envelopes might be more secure than encryption? I wonder if they have a smart, undetectable way of getting into the mail contents itself.

xkcd-sucks 12y ago
steam it, open the seal gently, and reseal it? open it destructively and make a new envelope? this is probably the easiest option for a 3-letter agency. soak it in a liquid that doesn't dissolve the ink, photograph the layers of text, and decipher it later? shine a really bright light on it, using a color that isn't well absorbed by the paper but is absorbed by the ink? If there's a way to harden paper mail against even a moderately prepared adversary I'm totally interested in learning about it...
- evan_ 12y ago
  Something like this maybe: http://www.wired.com/2013/12/better-data-security-nail-polish/ http://www.wired.com/2013/12/better-data-security-nail-polis... Or mail a postcard with a message encrypted by one-time-pad.
chiph 12y ago
Before the electronic age, the FBI, CIA and their predecessors would regularly do that. The skills needed to do so without detection might be rare these days (as people retire).
- maxxxxx 12y ago
  Just wait until some terrorists use only mail to prepare an attack. Then probably every piece of mail will be read to protect us.
  - chiph 12y ago
    Like the anthrax that was sent through the mail starting about a week after 9/11? The attacks killed five people in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

netcan 12y ago

Someone should figure out what law enforcers are and aren't allowed to do as part of their investigations. They should figure out what people's rights are. Then, they should write it down on a piece of velum. Maybe some more people could sign it.

double0jimb0 12y ago

And who builds the sorting systems for the USPS? The largest defense contractor, Lockheed Martin: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/06/AR2006080600630.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08... Dun dun dun...

lettercarrier 12y ago

Pmg Donahoe says systems don't store address info long term (>30 days) and are not linked nationwide They ask us how to monitize last mile or get new revenue. I suggested giving patrons data on what pieces went through sorters. Have a table view where you see letters processed that day. You could know what will be in your mailbox. You could see history of when stuff gets mailed to you. So many possibilities. USPS really has no profit thinking mindset whatsoever. Coming from telecom it's polar opposite. If bed bath & beyond mails a $5 coupon, ad space on the patrons table view could be sold to linens n things or Wally (like my online bank transactions). This is just the beginning We know (without any help from electrons) who gets arrested, where they work, car they drive, marital status, divorced or about to be, kids, age, political involvement, Prime customer, when they are home and when they are not, animal lover, catalogue orderer/receiver, has parents at home, previous city, tax bill, Cable/telco/direct tv, lawn service/snow removal, ultra rich and ultra poor. We see changes first too, often before they even tell other family members. Imagine a good analyst having at it with just the to/from addresses / names. The USPS has no clue, not even a crumb of a clue, how valuable letters, flats and parcels are to a company who wants to acquire new customers. Ahh.. oh well.. By the way, the USPS takes no taxpayer money...

upofadown 12y ago

This article might be a good rebuttal to claims that totally insecure writing on some paper might somehow be more secure than encryption.