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"As You Like It" by William Shakespeare Act 5, Scene 1: [...]The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool[...] I try to keep t

by atmosx 12y ago

"As You Like It" by William Shakespeare Act 5, Scene 1: [...]The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool[...] I try to keep that quote in mind at all times. I believe it holds a great deal of wisdom, especially for me. For I am loud and opinionated. But I still fail when I need it most, at times when I am surrounded by (people who IMHO are extreme) idiots.

robert_tweed 12y ago
That certainly borrows from Socrates: "I know one thing: that I know nothing."
- atmosx 12y ago
  Oh, my favorite Greek philosopher! :-)
- gjm11 12y ago
  It's an idea that recurs throughout history. We've got Socrates and Shakespeare already mentioned in the thread, to which I'll add: W B Yeats: "The best lack all conviction, and the worst / Are full of passionate intensity." Bertrand Russell: "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." Charles Darwin: "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." the Tao Te Ching: "To know that you do not know is highest. To not know but think you know is flawed. ... The sages are without fault, because they recognize the fault as a fault". (Semi-interestingly, I can't find anything very close to this idea in the biblical books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes -- the former sees certainty as something to aspire to, and the latter is just equally down on everyone, wise and foolish alike.)
  - PavlovsCat 12y ago
    Erich Fried wrote a poem called "Angst und Zweifel", it goes roughly like this: do not doubt the one who says he is afraid but be afraid of the one who says he knows no doubt
    - jeangenie 12y ago
      Is this your own translation?
      - PavlovsCat 12y ago
        Yes, I made it for the occasion :) It's a bit awkward though, "the one" would better be translated with "him"; I wanted to make it gender neutral and couldn't think of anything good. Wikiquote translates it as "Do not doubt him who tells you he is afraid, but be afraid of him who tells you he has no doubts."
        jeangenie 12y ago
        I prefer yours. Nice work!
  - marknow 12y ago
    All absolutely great quotes -- and I *still couldn't stop thinking about how much this ying/yang reminds me of the hilarious quotes from "The Sphinx" in the movie, "Mystery Men" (1999, IMDB here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132347/quotes http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132347/quotes) For example, "He who questions training... only trains himself at asking questions."
  - hammock 12y ago
    Try Proverbs 28:26- "Those who trust in themselves are fools, but those who walk in wisdom are safe." In other words, those who walk in wisdom perceive the shadow of God and humble themselves, "for the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God" (1 Cor 3:19) Or Romans 1:22. "While claiming to be wise, they became fools." Rom 12:16 "Do not be wise in your own estimation" Is 5:21 "Woe! Those who are wise in their own eyes, prudent in their own view!" 1 Cor 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation [crucifixion] to save those who have faith." Wisdom ain't all it's cracked up to be
  - jackpirate 12y ago
    >W B Yeats: "The best lack all conviction, and the worst / Are full of passionate intensity." I always read this quote by Yeats as a lamentation about the status of the world, similar to your Russel quote that's a bit more explicit. But the Socrates quote is clearly not in this vein... It never occurred to me before that Yeats might be more in line with Socrates than with Russell. You can read him as praising the best for their lack of conviction and condemning the worst for their passion. I like that reading much better. (Of course, I've never read the source, just heard it quoted.)
    - triangleman 12y ago
      Read the source, it's rather famous.
  - baddox 12y ago
    I enjoy Asimov's tongue-in-cheek version: > Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
- philh 12y ago
  That was incredibly underconfident of Socrates.
Swizec 12y ago
This is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect[1], the cognitive bias that unskilled individuals overestimate their ability and skilled individuals underestimate it. "The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias manifesting in two principal ways: unskilled individuals tend to suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate, while highly skilled individuals tend to rate their ability lower than is accurate. In unskilled individuals, this bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude. Skilled individuals tend to underestimate their relative competence, erroneously assuming that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others." [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
- Spearchucker 12y ago
  Another interesting slant on this is imposter syndrome. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
- atmosx 12y ago
  I quoted Shakespeare because I admire him deeply and felt that my thoughts on the matter were relevant. But the two statements are fundamentally different IMHO: - Shakespeare writes of wisdom which comes in form of doubt. Only the wise men allow doubt into the conversation, hence their stance towards other parties is not aggressive and absolute, but rather flexible. - The Dunning-Kruger effect, refers to personal biases of two categories. However, I might be a little over-pedantic here, because comparing a study with a theatrical play can not be done in a straight way :-)
  - Swizec 12y ago
    > However, I might be a little over-pedantic here, because comparing a study with a theatrical play can not be done in a straight way :-) Don't worry, this is HackerNews, discussion among nerds of the highest form. Pedantry is what we do. I think that while Shakespeare said it more poetically, he is essentially talking about the same thing. Perhaps Dunning-Kruger is more to the point and matter of fact, but it is the same thing. The expert speaks with doubt (because they know that there's so much more to know about a subject), and the fool speaks with certainty (because they do not know). So maybe Shakespeare is describing half of Dunning-Kruger?

by atmosx 12y ago

robert_tweed 12y ago

That certainly borrows from Socrates: "I know one thing: that I know nothing."

atmosx 12y ago
Oh, my favorite Greek philosopher! :-)
gjm11 12y ago
It's an idea that recurs throughout history. We've got Socrates and Shakespeare already mentioned in the thread, to which I'll add: W B Yeats: "The best lack all conviction, and the worst / Are full of passionate intensity." Bertrand Russell: "The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt." Charles Darwin: "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." the Tao Te Ching: "To know that you do not know is highest. To not know but think you know is flawed. ... The sages are without fault, because they recognize the fault as a fault". (Semi-interestingly, I can't find anything very close to this idea in the biblical books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes -- the former sees certainty as something to aspire to, and the latter is just equally down on everyone, wise and foolish alike.)
- PavlovsCat 12y ago
  Erich Fried wrote a poem called "Angst und Zweifel", it goes roughly like this: do not doubt the one who says he is afraid but be afraid of the one who says he knows no doubt
  - jeangenie 12y ago
    Is this your own translation?
    - PavlovsCat 12y ago
      Yes, I made it for the occasion :) It's a bit awkward though, "the one" would better be translated with "him"; I wanted to make it gender neutral and couldn't think of anything good. Wikiquote translates it as "Do not doubt him who tells you he is afraid, but be afraid of him who tells you he has no doubts."
      - jeangenie 12y ago
        I prefer yours. Nice work!
- marknow 12y ago
  All absolutely great quotes -- and I *still couldn't stop thinking about how much this ying/yang reminds me of the hilarious quotes from "The Sphinx" in the movie, "Mystery Men" (1999, IMDB here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132347/quotes http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0132347/quotes) For example, "He who questions training... only trains himself at asking questions."
- hammock 12y ago
  Try Proverbs 28:26- "Those who trust in themselves are fools, but those who walk in wisdom are safe." In other words, those who walk in wisdom perceive the shadow of God and humble themselves, "for the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the eyes of God" (1 Cor 3:19) Or Romans 1:22. "While claiming to be wise, they became fools." Rom 12:16 "Do not be wise in your own estimation" Is 5:21 "Woe! Those who are wise in their own eyes, prudent in their own view!" 1 Cor 1:21 "For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation [crucifixion] to save those who have faith." Wisdom ain't all it's cracked up to be
- jackpirate 12y ago
  >W B Yeats: "The best lack all conviction, and the worst / Are full of passionate intensity." I always read this quote by Yeats as a lamentation about the status of the world, similar to your Russel quote that's a bit more explicit. But the Socrates quote is clearly not in this vein... It never occurred to me before that Yeats might be more in line with Socrates than with Russell. You can read him as praising the best for their lack of conviction and condemning the worst for their passion. I like that reading much better. (Of course, I've never read the source, just heard it quoted.)
  - triangleman 12y ago
    Read the source, it's rather famous.
- baddox 12y ago
  I enjoy Asimov's tongue-in-cheek version: > Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
philh 12y ago
That was incredibly underconfident of Socrates.

Swizec 12y ago

This is known as the Dunning-Kruger effect[1], the cognitive bias that unskilled individuals overestimate their ability and skilled individuals underestimate it. "The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias manifesting in two principal ways: unskilled individuals tend to suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate, while highly skilled individuals tend to rate their ability lower than is accurate. In unskilled individuals, this bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude. Skilled individuals tend to underestimate their relative competence, erroneously assuming that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others." [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Spearchucker 12y ago
Another interesting slant on this is imposter syndrome. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
atmosx 12y ago
I quoted Shakespeare because I admire him deeply and felt that my thoughts on the matter were relevant. But the two statements are fundamentally different IMHO: - Shakespeare writes of wisdom which comes in form of doubt. Only the wise men allow doubt into the conversation, hence their stance towards other parties is not aggressive and absolute, but rather flexible. - The Dunning-Kruger effect, refers to personal biases of two categories. However, I might be a little over-pedantic here, because comparing a study with a theatrical play can not be done in a straight way :-)
- Swizec 12y ago
  > However, I might be a little over-pedantic here, because comparing a study with a theatrical play can not be done in a straight way :-) Don't worry, this is HackerNews, discussion among nerds of the highest form. Pedantry is what we do. I think that while Shakespeare said it more poetically, he is essentially talking about the same thing. Perhaps Dunning-Kruger is more to the point and matter of fact, but it is the same thing. The expert speaks with doubt (because they know that there's so much more to know about a subject), and the fool speaks with certainty (because they do not know). So maybe Shakespeare is describing half of Dunning-Kruger?