6 ms·

Interesting, but: There are two kinds of users in this scenario. Those who don't care (99%) and those who do. If you count yourself among the latter group, as

by quesera 12y ago

Interesting, but: There are two kinds of users in this scenario. Those who don't care (99%) and those who do. If you count yourself among the latter group, as I do, then it's always solid advice to choose actions which clarify your intentions. In this case: - don't use iCloud - don't use iCloud sync for the app you use for private data - do explicitly choose to save the file locally - don't enable new features like Continuity that clearly change the file persistence and availability model without considering your old patterns The author is rightly sore that his bits got pushed to Apple due to his oversight. He's wrong to place the blame fully on Apple, but it's hard to be fair when you're angry. And I'm glad he wrote it up because it should encourage people to think carefully about where and to whom they trust their data. Though most people I know sync their private data to Dropbox, Ffs, so...thinking != thinking, I guess. My secure notes strategy is vim with encrypted files on an encrypted partition. It could still leak, and I'd be angry, but there are at least three vendors involved that would have to alter their products behaviours before I was hugely surprised. TextEdit on HFS+ on OSX with iCloud enabled is just one vendor, who can't always cater to my 1% of 1% expectations.

sneak 12y ago
I'm not angry, but it does violate the principle of least surprise and the document model that's been in use for text editors forever. I opted in to iCloud Drive to synchronize files - files I chose to store in iCloud. I did not opt in to synchronize my unsaved files in apps not currently supported by Continuity, nor was there any warning or indication that that would occur. How would you feel if the OS, without warning, started syncing your vim temporary files (including your pre-encrypted versions) to the cloud? This is the same thing. Don't hate because it's TextEdit and iA Writer.
- quesera 12y ago
  Right, well I agree with you almost entirely. My only hesitation is that you and I have to recognize that we are on the fringes of the fringe, and be hyper-vigilant. This behaviour is only surprising if you get lax (as I was, too) about evolving functionality. My point about vim is that for me, it's a purposeful simplification. I do sometimes wish for a more flexible note taking app, but I know that it would take an earthquake of change for vim to sprout a file sync feature that tied into iCloud. And I value that, a lot.
  - sneak 12y ago
    This is OS functionality, so it would be akin to iCloud helpfully synchronizing your vim recovery files across your Macs (via a roundtrip to iCloud) without you ever asking it to - not a change in vim. This is why this is worth sounding the alarm over - it's an OS-level change that affects all apps, not just Apple's.
    - quesera 12y ago
      That's a good point, and is part of the reason I have iCloud turned off completely -- so I don't have to think about individual cases. Obviously, it's completely possible that mdsworker or any of the other dozens of Apple daemons is slowly leaking my unencrypted RAM or swap files out to 17.x.x.x or somewhere else I've allowed in my packet filter configuration. But that is the line between enhancement for the majority and malice for the targeted. As long as I force Apple to cross that line before causing me any damage, I feel comfortable trusting them (their corporate policy, their auditing, their hiring, their systems administration, etc).
  - jellicle 12y ago
    > I know that it would take an earthquake of change for vim to sprout a file sync feature Well, you may know that, but don't worry, when it happens and surprises you and you post about it, there will definitely be someone here on Hacker News to scold you that you should have known better and that it's all your fault for not anticipating the unexpected and unannounced changes.
- shurcooL 12y ago
  > my unsaved files How would you feel if your unsaved files suddenly disappear? Would you blame apple for deleting files you explicitly chose to not save? You were relying on a feature in an unusual and unintended way. Sooner or later, that may stop working. The "unsaved files" being not synced to iCloud was never something that was meant to be guaranteed, it was just how it was. What I'm suggesting is that by opting to explicitly save a file locally, you're giving more of a signal that you don't want it available remotely, compared to not saving a file at all.
  - sneak 12y ago
    I'm more interested in why the default behavior of internet users is so often to blame the victim. Does it shift the danger of the world squarely onto those who couldn't ever possibly be you, as your internal narrative has you as perfectly informed at all times? I'm a security-conscious engineer that's been using Apple hardware and software for two decades. Today, my computer took a bunch of private text and uploaded it without my knowledge or consent, completely contrary to my expectations. Does it threaten your worldview to consider that perhaps I didn't do anything wrong? (To answer your question directly: I would be annoyed but it wouldn't be the end of the world; I'd simply restore those files from backup as I knew where they were being autosaved previously. That's an entirely different ballgame than silently uploading them.)
    - quesera 12y ago
      I think if you had presented exactly the same data as the results of dispassionate research, you would have gotten a somewhat tepid, but appreciative response. Because you presented it as a personal violation and unconscionable shock, many people are reacting with incredulity. I don't think you did anything wrong, tactically, and I think this is an important discovery. I do think you need to rethink your strategy around private data though, because the course of user experience is at odds with your desires.
      - heavenlyhash 12y ago
        And you have the privilege of speaking of "the course of user experience" as if it's an undeniable course (or a user-driven movement, for that matter; which I daresay is not easily substantiated when we're on a topic of a decision of Apple engineering rolled out without warning) ... as a result of your dispassionate research?
sauere 12y ago
To be more precise: don't use OSX. You have no control on what is happening, syncing, uploading, shadow-copying etc. in the background.
amirmc 12y ago
> "There are two kinds of users in this scenario. Those who don't care (99%) and those who do." ... "The author is rightly sore that his bits got pushed to Apple due to his oversight" (emphasis mine) This attitude is completely unhelpful. It throws those who are otherwise ignorant under the bus simply because they don't (can't?) understand how modern tech works. Is that really fair? Must we really divide the world up this way? Most of the public hasn't caught up to how modern systems work and what the trade-offs really are, and they certainly won't if this is the approach we choose to take. It's almost reminiscent of Morlocks and Eloi from HG Well's Time Machine.
- nobbyclark 12y ago
  Sadly this type of response seems to be common amongst those that do get it. "Whatever. Most people don't care anyway." If you look at the reaction of those 99% to Apple planting a U2 album on their phone, you see an angry response when people are made aware...
  - api 12y ago
    If only users actually changed their buying behavior on the basis of security or privacy. Until that happens "users don't care about security or privacy" will continue to be the default since economically speaking it is absolutely true. What users care about as revealed by buying behavior is: user experience, user experience, user experience, user experience, cost, user experience, and user experience.
    - nobbyclark 12y ago
      Has there been a model of consumer behavior related to personal computing where security played a major part? Yes - anti-virus software on Windows. That's not an entirely healthy example but it does show it is possible to make consumers take topics like security and privacy seriously. The issue right now is there aren't enough voices telling them how serious these topics are.
      - 12y ago
untog 12y ago
There are two kinds of users in this scenario. Those who don't care (99%) and those who do. Correct, and those of us that do should act on behalf of those who don't, because a good many of them are not technically inclined enough to know if they should care.
- quesera 12y ago
  Totally agree. Which is why I mentioned that I'm glad the OP posted about it and brought it to our attention. Apple is averse to asking users lots of questions in general, but especially difficult questions that most won't understand or know how to answer -- or the implications of their choice. Pretending for a sec that Apple will change their default setting here, to the detriment of 99% of their users but to satisfy the noisy us... I'd love to see suggestions on how to word this checkbox option. iCloud has a lot of options already. It's a complicated concept for most people. I agree that this is borderline surprising behaviour, but I don't see how to avoid surprising someone.
mempko 12y ago
Actually there are 4 kinds of users. - Those who don't care and will never care - Those who don't care but will care in the future - Those who care now and will care in the future - Those who care now and will not care in the future. The first one is common. The second one does happen. The third one is more common than the fourth. I think the amount of users this will affect is greater than you expect.
Istof 12y ago
> don't enable new features most of the time, the default is to enable the new privacy invasive features unfortunately... (it should be opt-in, always)

by quesera 12y ago

sneak 12y ago

I'm not angry, but it does violate the principle of least surprise and the document model that's been in use for text editors forever. I opted in to iCloud Drive to synchronize files - files I chose to store in iCloud. I did not opt in to synchronize my unsaved files in apps not currently supported by Continuity, nor was there any warning or indication that that would occur. How would you feel if the OS, without warning, started syncing your vim temporary files (including your pre-encrypted versions) to the cloud? This is the same thing. Don't hate because it's TextEdit and iA Writer.

quesera 12y ago
Right, well I agree with you almost entirely. My only hesitation is that you and I have to recognize that we are on the fringes of the fringe, and be hyper-vigilant. This behaviour is only surprising if you get lax (as I was, too) about evolving functionality. My point about vim is that for me, it's a purposeful simplification. I do sometimes wish for a more flexible note taking app, but I know that it would take an earthquake of change for vim to sprout a file sync feature that tied into iCloud. And I value that, a lot.
- sneak 12y ago
  This is OS functionality, so it would be akin to iCloud helpfully synchronizing your vim recovery files across your Macs (via a roundtrip to iCloud) without you ever asking it to - not a change in vim. This is why this is worth sounding the alarm over - it's an OS-level change that affects all apps, not just Apple's.
  - quesera 12y ago
    That's a good point, and is part of the reason I have iCloud turned off completely -- so I don't have to think about individual cases. Obviously, it's completely possible that mdsworker or any of the other dozens of Apple daemons is slowly leaking my unencrypted RAM or swap files out to 17.x.x.x or somewhere else I've allowed in my packet filter configuration. But that is the line between enhancement for the majority and malice for the targeted. As long as I force Apple to cross that line before causing me any damage, I feel comfortable trusting them (their corporate policy, their auditing, their hiring, their systems administration, etc).
- jellicle 12y ago
  > I know that it would take an earthquake of change for vim to sprout a file sync feature Well, you may know that, but don't worry, when it happens and surprises you and you post about it, there will definitely be someone here on Hacker News to scold you that you should have known better and that it's all your fault for not anticipating the unexpected and unannounced changes.
shurcooL 12y ago
> my unsaved files How would you feel if your unsaved files suddenly disappear? Would you blame apple for deleting files you explicitly chose to not save? You were relying on a feature in an unusual and unintended way. Sooner or later, that may stop working. The "unsaved files" being not synced to iCloud was never something that was meant to be guaranteed, it was just how it was. What I'm suggesting is that by opting to explicitly save a file locally, you're giving more of a signal that you don't want it available remotely, compared to not saving a file at all.
- sneak 12y ago
  I'm more interested in why the default behavior of internet users is so often to blame the victim. Does it shift the danger of the world squarely onto those who couldn't ever possibly be you, as your internal narrative has you as perfectly informed at all times? I'm a security-conscious engineer that's been using Apple hardware and software for two decades. Today, my computer took a bunch of private text and uploaded it without my knowledge or consent, completely contrary to my expectations. Does it threaten your worldview to consider that perhaps I didn't do anything wrong? (To answer your question directly: I would be annoyed but it wouldn't be the end of the world; I'd simply restore those files from backup as I knew where they were being autosaved previously. That's an entirely different ballgame than silently uploading them.)
  - quesera 12y ago
    I think if you had presented exactly the same data as the results of dispassionate research, you would have gotten a somewhat tepid, but appreciative response. Because you presented it as a personal violation and unconscionable shock, many people are reacting with incredulity. I don't think you did anything wrong, tactically, and I think this is an important discovery. I do think you need to rethink your strategy around private data though, because the course of user experience is at odds with your desires.
    - heavenlyhash 12y ago
      And you have the privilege of speaking of "the course of user experience" as if it's an undeniable course (or a user-driven movement, for that matter; which I daresay is not easily substantiated when we're on a topic of a decision of Apple engineering rolled out without warning) ... as a result of your dispassionate research?

sauere 12y ago

To be more precise: don't use OSX. You have no control on what is happening, syncing, uploading, shadow-copying etc. in the background.

amirmc 12y ago

> "There are two kinds of users in this scenario. Those who don't care (99%) and those who do." ... "The author is rightly sore that his bits got pushed to Apple due to his oversight" (emphasis mine) This attitude is completely unhelpful. It throws those who are otherwise ignorant under the bus simply because they don't (can't?) understand how modern tech works. Is that really fair? Must we really divide the world up this way? Most of the public hasn't caught up to how modern systems work and what the trade-offs really are, and they certainly won't if this is the approach we choose to take. It's almost reminiscent of Morlocks and Eloi from HG Well's Time Machine.

nobbyclark 12y ago
Sadly this type of response seems to be common amongst those that do get it. "Whatever. Most people don't care anyway." If you look at the reaction of those 99% to Apple planting a U2 album on their phone, you see an angry response when people are made aware...
- api 12y ago
  If only users actually changed their buying behavior on the basis of security or privacy. Until that happens "users don't care about security or privacy" will continue to be the default since economically speaking it is absolutely true. What users care about as revealed by buying behavior is: user experience, user experience, user experience, user experience, cost, user experience, and user experience.
  - nobbyclark 12y ago
    Has there been a model of consumer behavior related to personal computing where security played a major part? Yes - anti-virus software on Windows. That's not an entirely healthy example but it does show it is possible to make consumers take topics like security and privacy seriously. The issue right now is there aren't enough voices telling them how serious these topics are.
    - 12y ago

untog 12y ago

There are two kinds of users in this scenario. Those who don't care (99%) and those who do. Correct, and those of us that do should act on behalf of those who don't, because a good many of them are not technically inclined enough to know if they should care.

quesera 12y ago
Totally agree. Which is why I mentioned that I'm glad the OP posted about it and brought it to our attention. Apple is averse to asking users lots of questions in general, but especially difficult questions that most won't understand or know how to answer -- or the implications of their choice. Pretending for a sec that Apple will change their default setting here, to the detriment of 99% of their users but to satisfy the noisy us... I'd love to see suggestions on how to word this checkbox option. iCloud has a lot of options already. It's a complicated concept for most people. I agree that this is borderline surprising behaviour, but I don't see how to avoid surprising someone.

mempko 12y ago

Actually there are 4 kinds of users. - Those who don't care and will never care - Those who don't care but will care in the future - Those who care now and will care in the future - Those who care now and will not care in the future. The first one is common. The second one does happen. The third one is more common than the fourth. I think the amount of users this will affect is greater than you expect.

Istof 12y ago

> don't enable new features most of the time, the default is to enable the new privacy invasive features unfortunately... (it should be opt-in, always)