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Law Lets I.R.S. Seize Accounts on Suspicion, No Crime Required

236 points by 001sky 12y ago

thelogos 12y ago
This has been the case for a long time. The IRS works on a guilty-until-proven-innocent basis. Take the case of collectible gain tax, if you do not have evidence to prove the value of the item on the date it was acquired, then the IRS calculates the tax based on the total value of the item, not just the profit. So if you buy something that might increased in value at a later date, you better keep the receipt. And of course, anytime the government freezes your asset and property, it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to get it back. Meanwhile, you won't have any means to hire a good lawyer.
- MagicWishMonkey 12y ago
  And if you do have the means to hire a lawyer they would likely require you to travel to Virginia and pick a lawyer from their list of lawyers approved to represent people in that specific district. Our justice system is a complete joke, I wonder if it's always been this way or if it's just common knowledge now that every indiscretion is publicized on the internet.
  - thelogos 12y ago
    Basically, once your asset has been frozen, the game is nearly over. Even without any charge being pressed, it takes years to get back the seized asset/property, if it's given back at all, that is. If you were charge with a crime and this gets dismissed later for whatever reason, things get even tougher. Additionally, if you even get arrested, you won't have any money for bond (a good time to call up the rich relatives), and you could be in jail for a long time.
  - gamblor956 12y ago
    And if you do have the means to hire a lawyer they would likely require you to travel to Virginia and pick a lawyer from their list of lawyers approved to represent people in that specific district. Completely false. You can hire any lawyer you want, wherever you want in the US. And you can force the IRS to litigate in the federal district court of your choice. Practice before a federal court merely requires admission to practice in any state court.
    - MagicWishMonkey 12y ago
      That's not what happened with Ladar Levison (the Lavabit case). He couldn't use his lawyer, he had to find a new one in that particular district in Virginia. So I know for a fact the last half of your statement is not true, although it might apply to cases that aren't related to certain government agencies.
- at-fates-hands 12y ago
  Keep in mind, this is the only government entity who spent millions of dollars to figure out how to continue to collect taxes in the event of a nuclear war and the collapse of society. Great book if you want to get really scared about how much power the IRS actually has: http://www.amazon.com/Law-Unto-Itself-Abuse-Power/dp/0679732837/ref=sr_1_3 http://www.amazon.com/Law-Unto-Itself-Abuse-Power/dp/0679732...? I wonder whatever happened to the "kinder gentler" IRS we were supposed to get with the Restructuring and Reform Act of 1998? Just in case you're lazy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service_Restructuring_and_Reform_Act_of_1998 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service_Restru...
  - tedunangst 12y ago
    > this is the only government entity who spent millions of dollars to figure out how to continue to collect taxes in the event of a nuclear war There is an odd implication to that statement, that you apparently believe multiple government agencies should have developed such plans.
    - 13 12y ago
      I read it the other way around, that other governments wouldn't do something so ridiculous.
zyxley 12y ago
I still fail to see how this kind of thing avoids violating the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.
- judk 12y ago
  The Constitution is full of weasel words like "due" and reasonable".
- adventured 12y ago
  It does violate the US Constitution. They simply don't care that it does, and there is nobody left to stop them. The US has an increasingly extra-legal, extra-constitutional government. What consequences have there been to the vast violations, lying to Congress, law breaking in the spying programs? None, and there never will be. That's a system beyond any decent rule of law.
biot 12y ago
How about a workaround: if you want to deposit less than $10K in cash, you first withdraw an amount that, when added to your original deposit, totals $10,001. This automatically triggers the reporting requirement. If enough people made every deposit reportable, it would be like a denial of service on banks and the IRS.
- mahyarm 12y ago
  It won't be a denial of service TBH, since the american government in general has complete knowledge of financial transactions that go on between US financial institutions. This kind of report anyway can be reduced to a 1kb tuple. And your suggestion is an active behavior that will be done by a minority, that doesn't work.
- thelogos 12y ago
  You'll be surprised at all the people making "large" cash deposit, seemingly oblivious to the law. FinCEN is already bombarded with tons of information. In the process, some criminals slide under the radar and innocent people get caught up in the net. The $10,000 limit is not a hard boundary. Banks can and often do report people for making much smaller deposit than this, just to cover their ass. With inflation going higher, $10k is not that big of amount as it used to be. And we're not just talking about cash deposits here, everything is monitored including money order, wire transfer, checks. For example, if you have regular incoming wire transfer, and it doesn't even have to be international, you better have all the documents and explanation prepared when the IRS knocks on the door. In this scenario, if the bank is feeling generous, it will refuse to service your account and ask you to go somewhere else. Often times though, there won't be a warning. Your account will just get frozen, "pending reviews from our security department."
  - toomuchtodo 12y ago
    Never before have I felt cash under a mattress was safer than in the financial system.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
templeos2 12y ago
God is perfectly just, even if you are robbed. Turn the other cheek. If a man wants you shirt, give him your coat, too. No worries. God is perfectly just. ============== The CIA or angels have had me in a prison when I have been trying to market software to the public. They hope I will give up and make license plates so they can study my brain and fuck everythgin all to hell. Say hello to Mr. God, evil dumb fucken niggers!! diE!!
stretchwithme 12y ago
Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply when all three branches of government agree that it doesn't apply.
- mullingitover 12y ago
  That's an understatement. The entire Constitution doesn't apply if two branches of government agree it doesn't.
  - joesmo 12y ago
    Sadly, I think only one branch is needed these days.
guylhem 12y ago
Before, I wondered how such things could not be found in violation of the constitution, while they were obviously taking property without prosecution, guilty until proven innocent, etc. The answer is simple: because someone in power said so, and with his thugs buddies pressured the right people to turn it into law - aka "might makes right" A recent US exemple: civil forfeiture, even of the money you set aside for your own legal representation, is totally ok, even if it actually impedes your right to defend yourself, cf http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/02/civil-liberties-and-supreme-court http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/02/ci... To those who still can't believe civil forfeiture in the US, here is a sweet example in the EU. The constitution explicitely says : "The Union shall not be liable for or assume the commitments of central governments, regional, local or other public authorities, other bodies governed by public law, or public undertakings of any Member State" (article 125 of the Maastricht treaty aka constitution) Yet the european court of justice, equivalent to the supreme court, found that bailing out Greece etc. by the European Stability Mechanism (purchase of dubious greek debt) was perfectly kosher. Now people object to the idea of the european central bank doing quantitative easy, for similar reasons - because it's against the basic premises of the ECB, the constitution, etc, but it will be done, regardless of what the law says, if enough pressure is applied by those in power to result in what is in practice disregarding the law. Basically, you can have a crystal clear constitution saying X is strictly illegal, but unless it's followed in practice, it's as worthless as the freedom of expression that was granted to the citizens of USSR by its own laws. There used to be a separate judiciary power - even the state was subject to laws. It is no longer the case. This separate power is being swallowed by the state. Is it profond disrespect of not just the spirit, but the letter, of any constitution? Whatever. "Might makes right" (Edit: clarified)
- mahyarm 12y ago
  I think in the end you have to realize that 'rule of law' is really a restricted form of 'rule of man', since it has to be enforced by people. And laws are written by people too.
  - themartorana 12y ago
    And broken by them - it just depends on who you are or what power you wield as to how you are handled for breaking them.
Yetanfou 12y ago
How on earth can these practices continue in a country which prides itself - to the level of claiming so in the last line of every stanza of its anthem - on being the 'land of the free and the home of the brave'? This type of injustice should be taught in history and literature classes in the guise of Prince John and the legend of Robin Hood. It should definitely not be part of the government curriculum. Required reading to become successful in the injustice department: Robin Hood 1984 Brave New World ...
- judk 12y ago
  Robin Hood?
  - Yetanfou 12y ago
    Part of the story of Robin Hood is where Prince John, in need of more money to satisfy his personal needs, increases 'taxes' on the population and sends his collectors around to basically take what they can - a rather strong resemblance to the situation as described in this article.
    - forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
      True, although nobody got to vote for Prince John.
      - dmix 12y ago
        Right but if you're inferring that by comparison the average person has an influential voice in our legal or political power systems... by voting... then you are extremely naive. Regardless of who wins, the end result is the same.
        forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
        You know, unless you're gay, or a woman or....
- 12y ago
emotionalcode 12y ago
> He added that making deposits under $10,000 to evade reporting requirements, called structuring, is still a crime whether the money is from legal or illegal sources. I don't understand this. How can anyone know whether what they are doing is wrong unless those rules are built into the structure of the law and the infrastructure of banks? From how I read this, one government 'report' gets triggered if deposits are over 10,000$. Another government 'report' gets triggered if deposits are made for an indeterminate period of time under 10,000$. > Instead, the money was seized solely because she had deposited less than $10,000 at a time, which they viewed as an attempt to avoid triggering a required government report. How can they assume this?
- thelogos 12y ago
  There's really no hard rule. It's based on the feeling of whoever is reviewing your account transactions. Even if you deposit $2-3k every month, your account could still be under suspicion.
- CamperBob2 12y ago
  They have more guns than we do. They can do pretty much whatever.
- johngalt 12y ago
  Bank employees are instructed to file reports on people who deposit funds in ways that appear to be avoiding reporting requirements. Even inquiring about limits can trigger one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report Also you've triggered a MIL report if you've ever used a money order or cashier's check for more than 3k. A lot of this stuff is old and they haven't adjusted the amounts.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  It isn't just the act of making deposits less than $10,000 that is structuring, as you quote, it's making deposits under $10,000 to evade reporting requirements. If you run a small business and make deposits of $5,000 because that's all you build up in a week, you have a pretty good chance of making the case that you are just doing your business. If you need $35,000 for some purpose and make 4 or 5 trips to the bank to get it, your explanation of why you needed to make 4 or 5 trips is sure to amuse the investigators.
monsterix 12y ago
Just out of curiosity: Can someone dealing purely with cryptocurrencies (like bitcoins) avoid this situation?
- Alupis 12y ago
  Not really, you have to first funnel your funds into bitcoin, which may trigger a review. Heck, if you use a US-based cryptocurrency "bank" like coinbase or similar, they may even "review" your account. (guess it's cash under the mattress for now ;)
  - raquo 12y ago
    Woohoo, I don't need to change my Russian habits!
  - programmarchy 12y ago
    He did say using purely cryptocurrencies, so if one was paid in crypto from the get-go and didn't have to convert to or from fiat, then an individual could protect their money, so long as they could keep their private keys secure. #opsec
    - beagle3 12y ago
      ... until you want to eat, and then realize you have to convert to a fiat currency because the grocery store doesn't accept bitcoins. Bitcoins are pseudonymous, rather than anonymous - and worse, every single transaction ever is documented in the blockchain. The IRS, I'm sure, is quite happy about this complete documentation, and while they haven't gotten around to (ab)using it, I'm sure they will sooner or later.
      - programmarchy 12y ago
        You can buy food with Bitcoin [1], although options are currently limited. I think this will continue to improve in the future as the counter-economy grows. And I agree that Bitcoin's lack of anonymity is a big problem. However, there are techniques one can use to keep transaction histories private, like using stealth addresses and decentralized, trustless mixing services like dark wallet and coinjoin [1]. Other cryptocurrencies like Darkcoin [2] have built privacy features into their protocol. These solutions are not yet perfect, but again I think they will continue to improve. Further agree that abuses by the IRS as well as other state agencies will continue. But why make it easier for them? It's only going to get worse in the future if we do nothing. [1] https://bitdazzle.com/food https://bitdazzle.com/food [2] https://wiki.anoncoin.net/Anonymity_of_cryptocurrencies https://wiki.anoncoin.net/Anonymity_of_cryptocurrencies [3] https://www.darkcoin.io https://www.darkcoin.io
chinesrestaur09 12y ago
Senorita and US Citizens. Hopefully the system works as well as in Meixco and Venezuela or the former Chile under the 'strong supreme leader.' 1.)big corporation tax loopholes. reason dot com. So with tax receipts falling thee is an incentive to crack down on small business . 2.)small business is the engine of growth, but there is no need due to printing of money in the shadow banking system. the shadow banking is a TECHNICAL TERM used by the Federal Reserve and global banking system. 3.)Maybe the shadow baning system hides in the shadows with the derivatives. Oh.... NO, NADA, NONE derivatives have been seized like the ';working captial' of small business? 4.)BUT the IRS is well run according to talk radio like the lawsuits about the IRSgate Lois Lerner scandals? Strange how all the government records 'disappeared.' 5.)this only happens to Mexican-Americans for perhaps the FREE AGENTS, consultants, small business and even shoe repair will be targeted? 6.)So, there is a BIG drug war going on. It is global, but the USA is the leader, IMHO. Using OUR leadership skills in making the world save for democracy and the US leadership in IRAQ and the list of other 39 countries.... 7.)So, there is a BIG drug war which is why most of the law enforcement highway stops are GOING SOUTH TO MEXICO. Why? 7a.)no great interest in stopping ttravelers GOING NORTH with possible durgs. 7b.)Travelers including average citizens GOING SOUTH have cash. reason dot com - police can seize it AND KEEP IT for 'police use.' Police use can include training - where else LAS VEGAS where prostitution is legal? Police use can include LUXURIES. 8.) this is in alleged possible preparation for the Cyprus bail-ins, where the governemtn seizes not only cash, but the bank accounts. 9.)First, raise the 10,000 ten thousand reporting requirment to ten times that or one hundred t. That allows any transaction, even 99,999$ to be investigated - that is seized. Of course, of course, the 'informal handshake merchants' as in the mid east and bitcoin, digital currency are still operating. so, perhaps most small businesses will go BIITCOIN? 22.)Will your local Chinese restaurant be affected? IMHO, NO! Eventually ALL the chinese restaurants, especialy those iin the nationa's captial will refuse to serve those who are 'tax collectors.' perhaps you may look at the references in the bible about tax collectors. PLEASE TARGET ALL CHINESE RESTAURANTS. what is your opinion? Better off, with no chinese restaurants - most are family owned and deal with cash.
- chinesrestaur09 12y ago
  standard governnment advice is to use the offical bureaucratic procedures. Senorita 1.)take the day's receipts and WORKING CAPITAL to Walmart, 24 hours 2.)wire it to MEXICO, with no questions asked 3.)need money every week to buy supplies of food? then have MEXICO holding company wire it back to you. 4.)send copies to nation's capital, with copies to Mr. President and if needed the lolcal police station. SERVE them the copies with videoape evidence when they arrive to eat. Make sure to blank out any identifiers or ask them to hold up the 'mask in front of the face.' 5.)raise the prices and also lower your profit, for THIS IS COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN THE USA, for Mr. President says, small business is the engine of growth in the USA and we have no recession. not legal or business advice, may be submitted to Colbert Report and other satire shows.
msoad 12y ago
Meanwhile corporate tax abuse has no criminal consequences for decision makers in the corporate!
morgante 12y ago
I'm as outraged by the practices of civil forfeiture and asset seizing as the next guy (our government is increasingly looking like a stationary bandit [1]). That being said, I'm not at all surprised that it happens and frankly not very worried: it's on a ridiculously small scale. There's a reason the NYT article focused on specific stories—the overall stats aren't exactly that scary. Of 639 seizures in 2012, 128 were legitimate. While 80% false positives doesn't seem good at first glance, consider that it's out of over 700,000 reports. Less than 0.1% of reports actually led to people's money being wrongfully seized—that's a low enough rate that it's hardly worth worrying about. If anything, I'm more worried that they're not catching more money launderers and tax evaders (only 128 seems awfully low in a country of 316 million). I think most of us would be hard-pressed to come up with a system which had a similarly low error rate. Paypal, for example, hardly does any better. Probably the biggest problem here is just that we don't provide effective enough mechanisms for remedying it. But this article doesn't even provide sufficient evidence of that. Take the Hirsch brothers who have been having trouble reclaiming their money. While that's unfortunate, I can totally understand how an all-cash family business which paid vendors in cash might have trouble providing adequate records. If I were with the IRS, I would have flagged them as well—tax evasion runs rampart in those sorts of family businesses. Yes, there's a small problem in our justice system (that it's hard to correct false positives). But it's hardly something the average person will ever be affected by. Focus on the scarier things, like systemic wiretapping. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson
- jacquesm 12y ago
  > Less than 0.1% of reports actually led to people's money being wrongfully seized—that's a low enough rate that it's hardly worth worrying about. Unless of course it is your money that is being wrongfully seized.
- revelation 12y ago
  And how many of the 128 were "drug traffickers, racketeers and terrorists"? There are always bigger problems. If a discussion thread just becomes long enough, eventually you get people telling us to be happy because there are others in Africa not having food.
hapless 12y ago
In two out of the three given examples, the people involved admit to deliberately structuring deposits to avoid reporting requirements. That is a crime, in and of itself. Ignorance is not a defense. These people were given bad advice by bank tellers and accountants, but they are still guilty. Being offered a settlement by the IRS is more than they should have hoped for. If anything, they're lucky to have been subject to civil forfeiture. In a criminal process, they would have lost all of the money, and also potentially spent time in prison.
- MarkPNeyer 12y ago
  "ignorance is not a defense" - It is a defense. Any reasonable person would accept "i did not know this thing i was doing, which hurts no one, was illegal" as defense against charges of a crime. It's just not a _legal_ defense because the legal system unreasonably expects people to know and comply with the massive, ever-growing battery of laws.
  - bmelton 12y ago
    "It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows what the law is today can guess what is will be tomorrow." – James Madison
  - cwp 12y ago
    Not only that, but the law in question explicitly references motive. Breaking a large deposit into smaller deposits is only illegal if you do it to avoid triggering reporting. So ignorance of the reporting requirements is a defence. If you didn't know it existed, how could you try to avoid it?
- cwp 12y ago
  If that's the case, they should have been prosecuted. Then they would have had the opportunity to defend themselves. Civil forfeiture mocks the the idea of justice.
carsongross 12y ago
And there's that boot again, grimly stomping on a human face...
sethbannon 12y ago
"in response to questions from The New York Times, the I.R.S. announced that it would curtail the practice" While it's upsetting that this practice happened in the first place, and even more upsetting that the judiciary seemed to allow it, it's a relief to know that the New York Times here fulfilled the intended role of a free press.
- ende 12y ago
  I heard both Tom Friedman and Paul Krugman were on the phone call and really had at them.
- bmelton 12y ago
  Even more upsetting than that is that they're just agreeing to curtail the practice, but the law is still on the books, waiting to be abused by the next administration, or the one after that. As I'm apparently quoting the hell out of founders and statesman today: "The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly." - Abraham Lincoln
NaOH 12y ago
Two good additional pieces. One is John Oliver's segment on this from his show Last Week Tonight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks&sns=em https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks&sns=em The other is a piece by two of the people who were originally behind the law but say it has failed and should be abolished. http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20140923/DM04/140929808 http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20140923/DM04/140...
mindcrime 12y ago
For the 8 trillionth time, let me point out that this is a perfect example of why people should vote for Libertarian candidates. Pretty much NO Democrat or Republican is going to take any strong stand against this behavior... OTOH, pretty much ALL Libertarians would fiercely oppose this. So, this November, when you go up to that ballot box...
ipsin 12y ago
So as an individual who wants to conduct transactions involving more than $10,000, in increments of less than $10,000, what do you do? You can't file a Currency Transaction Report on amounts less than $10,000. You could demand that the bank file a "Suspicious Activity Report" on you, to make it very clear that you're not trying to evade limits, but ... they're under no obligation to do so, are they? And my understanding is that there's a Gag Order attached as well, and the recipients of the report probably won't get the nuance that "you asked for it" at all. I think the "structuring" rules are kept vague because well-defined rules would be used by people who wanted to avoid attention, for various reasons.
DanielBMarkham 12y ago
Sidebar: the IRS also has special privileges when it comes to viewing your private data. Most folks don't know this. If your account is "flagged" (for whatever reason by a worker) they can go online and take just about any personal data of yours they want. The only reason more people don't know about this is that they haven't started abusing it as much as they do funds seizure. The IRS (and tax law) has some egregious structural defects that will not be fixed with a law here or there. A complete overhaul is desperately needed.
CauseOrSolution 12y ago
When might makes right how far behind is a revolution to clean out the bullies and tyrants who made it possible? Have leaders not learned what turns the majority or vocal minority against them... not just at the ballot box, but by the guillotine, armed resistance, suicide bombers, snipers etc?
Constitution4Me 12y ago
Deposit less than $10,000 dollars at a time and the IRS seals your bank deposit - no evidence no charges required! ISIS chops heads off but IRS is chopping its own head off. Trust has gone, common sense, gone, justice gone. Picking on Mum and Pop businesses that deposit less than $10 000 and confiscating the money is a sickness. I have studied the constitution and casual violation of the amendments by authorities for mad reasons is a sure way to destroy the USA. Then ISIS can step in. My idea is to VOTE somebody in that ENFORCES THE CONSTITUTION so that violations require capital punishment BACKDATED! That would be fair and legal and can save the USA instead of kill it. It seams that applying laws because of criminals that clobber innocent people is brain less. Come to England and start your own business - you pay about 20% TAX. Please come away from the USA about to destroy itself.
nicwolff 12y ago
So, carry $18,000 and it gets seized by highway cops because law-abiding people just don't carry that much cash http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/st.... But take it to the bank in two batches of $9000 and it gets seized by the IRS because law-abiding people don't avoid large deposits.
Constitution4Me 12y ago
“You Nation of Cowards!”, says Eric Holder in his speech to the people of the USA. Yes he is calling us cowards! Holder is Obama's man, he is also the fall guy too. Perhaps he calls us cowards, because Americans put up with so much s-t from Obama, Holder, Bloomberg and Napolitano and do nothing. Is the IRS controlled by the mafia? Yes it is, but not for much longer! "We the people" do noting even to defend the very Constitution that saves us from these criminals. There is a heap of criminal evidence against them all, growing by the second, but everybody is a powerless coward! WHY? The judges are paid-off by this gov mafia. All it takes for them to have power is a threatening phone call. Sane legal teams that defend normal people are accused and sacked and then the mad legal teams take over - predictors against ordinary good people like you, like your sister or your brother or your father. Everything that is good is accused of being totally evil and everything that is evil promoted by the media and government, promoted out of Obamas own mouth. It's all upside down political correctness barking madness! The IRS is controlled by this mafia. The USA has gone to hell in a madhouse. The police are predictors dressed in black just like Na- zi storm troopers that shoot your own kids in the back! The law does not apply to the police and your life is worthless to them. You know that is true because of their swagger and they behave like school thugs. Police carry military hardware and shoot innocent people every day! A few good cops, a few good sheriffs, a few good military commanders are a threat to Obama. HE REMOVES THEM. I guess we voted the wrong man in because he has removed over 300 good US military generals and captains! The consequence is ISIS or ISIL take over - off with your heads and all this when Obama is playing golf. NOW! We draw a line in the sand. IT STOPS HERE! ----------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NO MORE! So then the ARCH CRIMINAL HOLDER is actually right about: "WE THE PEOPLE BEING COWARDS". Is he right? He is laughing in our faces, except he does not realize that bravery starts out with inaction, starts with cowardly acts, or with shameful thoughts. Eventually a few brave men and women wake up, they are ashamed by their yellow bellies, ashamed by their drug habits, their past horrible mistakes are shameful, ashamed because they fail to defend their friends in trouble. Injustice is how a revolution starts and yellow bellies quickly become hard and brave and angry. DETERMINED NEVER TO BE COWARDLY AGAIN! NEVER TO TOLERATE EVIL SOCIALIST COMMUNISTS AGAIN. The USA will wake up, but will it be too late? Has the police state taken over already? Yes, it has! America is NOT free anymore! Worse Obama is dragging the rest of the world the same way. It is never too late and it is time to defend the Constitution which anticipated exactly these criminal minds taking over. For that reason the Constitution is an unrecognized genius that defends YOU against death by your own government. Obama knows exactly this fact and so he hates the Constitution of the United States of America. Almost every signature on paper makes him ARCH anti-Constitution reinforced. It is so obvious - it is as if 80% of Americans do not know their own constitution and are high on dope! Do you agree that clean minds must rule not criminals? Do you agree that you often tolerate what the rest of the world does not tolerate? If the IRS act like mafia then the IRS ARE MAFIA! If you simply tell them NO and everybody stands firm they absolutely cannot act against you. Why not say NO? Why not bring determined charges against them and charge them with treason because clearly their actions are killing the USA. Please Reply.
Constitution4Me 12y ago
Constitution4Me 12y ago
The IRS violates the Bill of Rights directly and deliberately. They must realize that it will be defended. If these words for example were pulled down that would be a violation of the first amendment. The IRS is violating the 4th and 5th and 6th and 7th and 9th amendments which means they steal your money without lawful reasons. The 6th amendment is violated because they even deliberatly take additional money given to you to defend yourself in court and so they knowingly sabotage your ability to defend yourself because of the thefts out of your bank accounts. The 6th is also violated because the IRS cause legal delays and you have a right to speedy legal redress but they deliberatly delay this. Bill of Right in Plain English ------------------------------ First Amendment: Speak your mind freely for it is your right. Each and every persons has a right to freedom of speech, religion of choise, freedom to write what they like in the press or on the internet, freedom to gather, freedom to petition or protest against injustices. Second Amendment: Defend yourselves and your nation. Keep and bare armes in a well diciplined militia. The reason is that goverments often turn on the people so that we the people must be allowed to defend ourselves or defend against foreign invasion if the government itself fails to do this. An example of defending your country is defending the Mexican border against ISIS terrorists or against Ebola spreading because the government cannot or will not. Third Amendment: Your home is your home, it cannot be taken over by the army or navy or airforce or government force of any kind. You shall not be forced to house in your house soldiers even if they pay rent. For the same reason your property cannot be taken for military use even in a crisis and no other law can override this right. Fourth Amendment: No government agency shall search, spy on or steal from it citizens. Simply put the government shall not carry out unreasonable searches and seizures. This applies to the person, vehicles, houses, businesses, telecommunications equipment and computer equipment like your phone. This law makes intercepting information or hacking by goverments without warrents illegal because it is theft, and ureasonable spying. Thefts from bank accounts without legal warrents is theft and you can arrest those responsible both for theft and for violating the 4th Amendment. Fifth Amendment: No government agency or person shall take anything from you without due process and they sall not short cut such a process of law. You shall not be deprived of your life or liberty and freedom without being able to call upon the law to bring a possible defence using witnesses. Your property cannot be taken without the process of Law. You shall not be forced to talk if you do not wish to talk. You cannot stand trial twice for the same crime event. A court cannot presume guilt by you pleading the 5th. Sixth Amendment: You have the right to legally defend yourself. You have the right to a speedy public trial and access to witnesses. Seventy Amendment: If you are accused you have the right to a jury trial. The jury cannot be selected or illegally influenced in such a way as to cause a bias for or against you. Eighth Amendment: Government persons or agencies or any organization shall not sadistically or maliciously punish you. You shall not be given unrealistic bail or unrealistic fines. You shall not suffer cruel and unusual punishment. Common sense and fair! Ninth Amendment: You have many basic human rights as do visitors to your country. Even if these rights are not listed they shall not be taken from you nor violated. Examples include the right to defend others, the right to defend your country against socialist communists because they are destroying your country. The right to pronounce any laws that violates any of the Bill of Rights as invalid and to arrest those that attempt to destroy the Bill of Rights. The right to take photographs or videos in public places without being molested or threatened. The right to warn everybody that the US government is passing laws that violate all 10 amendments at the same time! The right to have the same rights as an American so as not be abused as a tourist or visitor. The right not to be sexually violated at the airport. The right to prove that personal violations at airports and ports is causing other nations to stop trading with the USA! The right to prove that the stock market is ultra fragile and represents false illusionary wealth. The right to arrest the police when they commit a crime. The right to lay down your life for the US Constitution and Bill of Rights without being accused of being a terrorist. The 9th amendment allows you to explain in plain English the meanings of all the amendments and to teach them is schools! The ninth allows you to put on death row with due process anybody for treason who tries to remove the Bill of Rights simply because attempting to remove or water down this law can result in the murder of millions of Americans, so you are legally obliged to prevent mass murders because of the 9th. The 9th amendment allows you to object to carrying out illegal orders even from the president himself. Tenth Amendment: The federal government shall not attempt to create laws that override state or local laws or act in any way outside its federal jurisdiction. FEMA for example has grown by combining many federal agencies together and frequently and illegally acts to violate the 10th as well as most of the other amendments. Instead of FEMA being a protective rescue organization it has become an internal brown shirt thug agency with military vehicles and gun boats. FEMA has become a predatory agency who are not your friends but your ultimate deadly enemy. Passing laws that violate state laws is a blatant violation of the 10th Amendment. Conclusion the Bill of Rights or Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America is YOUR FRIEND it was written by a genius to defend you, lose it and your own lives are is at risk. Your children's lives are at risk. The weakening of the Bill of Rights is already deadly to your family.

236 points by 001sky 12y ago

This has been the case for a long time. The IRS works on a guilty-until-proven-innocent basis. Take the case of collectible gain tax, if you do not have evidence to prove the value of the item on the date it was acquired, then the IRS calculates the tax based on the total value of the item, not just the profit. So if you buy something that might increased in value at a later date, you better keep the receipt. And of course, anytime the government freezes your asset and property, it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to get it back. Meanwhile, you won't have any means to hire a good lawyer.

MagicWishMonkey 12y ago
And if you do have the means to hire a lawyer they would likely require you to travel to Virginia and pick a lawyer from their list of lawyers approved to represent people in that specific district. Our justice system is a complete joke, I wonder if it's always been this way or if it's just common knowledge now that every indiscretion is publicized on the internet.
- thelogos 12y ago
  Basically, once your asset has been frozen, the game is nearly over. Even without any charge being pressed, it takes years to get back the seized asset/property, if it's given back at all, that is. If you were charge with a crime and this gets dismissed later for whatever reason, things get even tougher. Additionally, if you even get arrested, you won't have any money for bond (a good time to call up the rich relatives), and you could be in jail for a long time.
- gamblor956 12y ago
  And if you do have the means to hire a lawyer they would likely require you to travel to Virginia and pick a lawyer from their list of lawyers approved to represent people in that specific district. Completely false. You can hire any lawyer you want, wherever you want in the US. And you can force the IRS to litigate in the federal district court of your choice. Practice before a federal court merely requires admission to practice in any state court.
  - MagicWishMonkey 12y ago
    That's not what happened with Ladar Levison (the Lavabit case). He couldn't use his lawyer, he had to find a new one in that particular district in Virginia. So I know for a fact the last half of your statement is not true, although it might apply to cases that aren't related to certain government agencies.
at-fates-hands 12y ago
Keep in mind, this is the only government entity who spent millions of dollars to figure out how to continue to collect taxes in the event of a nuclear war and the collapse of society. Great book if you want to get really scared about how much power the IRS actually has: http://www.amazon.com/Law-Unto-Itself-Abuse-Power/dp/0679732837/ref=sr_1_3 http://www.amazon.com/Law-Unto-Itself-Abuse-Power/dp/0679732...? I wonder whatever happened to the "kinder gentler" IRS we were supposed to get with the Restructuring and Reform Act of 1998? Just in case you're lazy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service_Restructuring_and_Reform_Act_of_1998 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Revenue_Service_Restru...
- tedunangst 12y ago
  > this is the only government entity who spent millions of dollars to figure out how to continue to collect taxes in the event of a nuclear war There is an odd implication to that statement, that you apparently believe multiple government agencies should have developed such plans.
  - 13 12y ago
    I read it the other way around, that other governments wouldn't do something so ridiculous.

zyxley 12y ago

I still fail to see how this kind of thing avoids violating the Fourth and Fifth Amendments.

judk 12y ago
The Constitution is full of weasel words like "due" and reasonable".
adventured 12y ago
It does violate the US Constitution. They simply don't care that it does, and there is nobody left to stop them. The US has an increasingly extra-legal, extra-constitutional government. What consequences have there been to the vast violations, lying to Congress, law breaking in the spying programs? None, and there never will be. That's a system beyond any decent rule of law.

biot 12y ago

How about a workaround: if you want to deposit less than $10K in cash, you first withdraw an amount that, when added to your original deposit, totals $10,001. This automatically triggers the reporting requirement. If enough people made every deposit reportable, it would be like a denial of service on banks and the IRS.

mahyarm 12y ago
It won't be a denial of service TBH, since the american government in general has complete knowledge of financial transactions that go on between US financial institutions. This kind of report anyway can be reduced to a 1kb tuple. And your suggestion is an active behavior that will be done by a minority, that doesn't work.
thelogos 12y ago
You'll be surprised at all the people making "large" cash deposit, seemingly oblivious to the law. FinCEN is already bombarded with tons of information. In the process, some criminals slide under the radar and innocent people get caught up in the net. The $10,000 limit is not a hard boundary. Banks can and often do report people for making much smaller deposit than this, just to cover their ass. With inflation going higher, $10k is not that big of amount as it used to be. And we're not just talking about cash deposits here, everything is monitored including money order, wire transfer, checks. For example, if you have regular incoming wire transfer, and it doesn't even have to be international, you better have all the documents and explanation prepared when the IRS knocks on the door. In this scenario, if the bank is feeling generous, it will refuse to service your account and ask you to go somewhere else. Often times though, there won't be a warning. Your account will just get frozen, "pending reviews from our security department."
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  Never before have I felt cash under a mattress was safer than in the financial system.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

templeos2 12y ago

God is perfectly just, even if you are robbed. Turn the other cheek. If a man wants you shirt, give him your coat, too. No worries. God is perfectly just. ============== The CIA or angels have had me in a prison when I have been trying to market software to the public. They hope I will give up and make license plates so they can study my brain and fuck everythgin all to hell. Say hello to Mr. God, evil dumb fucken niggers!! diE!!

stretchwithme 12y ago

Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply when all three branches of government agree that it doesn't apply.

mullingitover 12y ago
That's an understatement. The entire Constitution doesn't apply if two branches of government agree it doesn't.
- joesmo 12y ago
  Sadly, I think only one branch is needed these days.

guylhem 12y ago

Before, I wondered how such things could not be found in violation of the constitution, while they were obviously taking property without prosecution, guilty until proven innocent, etc. The answer is simple: because someone in power said so, and with his thugs buddies pressured the right people to turn it into law - aka "might makes right" A recent US exemple: civil forfeiture, even of the money you set aside for your own legal representation, is totally ok, even if it actually impedes your right to defend yourself, cf http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/02/civil-liberties-and-supreme-court http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/02/ci... To those who still can't believe civil forfeiture in the US, here is a sweet example in the EU. The constitution explicitely says : "The Union shall not be liable for or assume the commitments of central governments, regional, local or other public authorities, other bodies governed by public law, or public undertakings of any Member State" (article 125 of the Maastricht treaty aka constitution) Yet the european court of justice, equivalent to the supreme court, found that bailing out Greece etc. by the European Stability Mechanism (purchase of dubious greek debt) was perfectly kosher. Now people object to the idea of the european central bank doing quantitative easy, for similar reasons - because it's against the basic premises of the ECB, the constitution, etc, but it will be done, regardless of what the law says, if enough pressure is applied by those in power to result in what is in practice disregarding the law. Basically, you can have a crystal clear constitution saying X is strictly illegal, but unless it's followed in practice, it's as worthless as the freedom of expression that was granted to the citizens of USSR by its own laws. There used to be a separate judiciary power - even the state was subject to laws. It is no longer the case. This separate power is being swallowed by the state. Is it profond disrespect of not just the spirit, but the letter, of any constitution? Whatever. "Might makes right" (Edit: clarified)

mahyarm 12y ago
I think in the end you have to realize that 'rule of law' is really a restricted form of 'rule of man', since it has to be enforced by people. And laws are written by people too.
- themartorana 12y ago
  And broken by them - it just depends on who you are or what power you wield as to how you are handled for breaking them.

Yetanfou 12y ago

How on earth can these practices continue in a country which prides itself - to the level of claiming so in the last line of every stanza of its anthem - on being the 'land of the free and the home of the brave'? This type of injustice should be taught in history and literature classes in the guise of Prince John and the legend of Robin Hood. It should definitely not be part of the government curriculum. Required reading to become successful in the injustice department: Robin Hood 1984 Brave New World ...

judk 12y ago
Robin Hood?
- Yetanfou 12y ago
  Part of the story of Robin Hood is where Prince John, in need of more money to satisfy his personal needs, increases 'taxes' on the population and sends his collectors around to basically take what they can - a rather strong resemblance to the situation as described in this article.
  - forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
    True, although nobody got to vote for Prince John.
    - dmix 12y ago
      Right but if you're inferring that by comparison the average person has an influential voice in our legal or political power systems... by voting... then you are extremely naive. Regardless of who wins, the end result is the same.
      - forgotpasswd3x 12y ago
        You know, unless you're gay, or a woman or....
12y ago

emotionalcode 12y ago

> He added that making deposits under $10,000 to evade reporting requirements, called structuring, is still a crime whether the money is from legal or illegal sources. I don't understand this. How can anyone know whether what they are doing is wrong unless those rules are built into the structure of the law and the infrastructure of banks? From how I read this, one government 'report' gets triggered if deposits are over 10,000$. Another government 'report' gets triggered if deposits are made for an indeterminate period of time under 10,000$. > Instead, the money was seized solely because she had deposited less than $10,000 at a time, which they viewed as an attempt to avoid triggering a required government report. How can they assume this?

thelogos 12y ago
There's really no hard rule. It's based on the feeling of whoever is reviewing your account transactions. Even if you deposit $2-3k every month, your account could still be under suspicion.
CamperBob2 12y ago
They have more guns than we do. They can do pretty much whatever.
johngalt 12y ago
Bank employees are instructed to file reports on people who deposit funds in ways that appear to be avoiding reporting requirements. Even inquiring about limits can trigger one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspicious_activity_report Also you've triggered a MIL report if you've ever used a money order or cashier's check for more than 3k. A lot of this stuff is old and they haven't adjusted the amounts.
maxerickson 12y ago
It isn't just the act of making deposits less than $10,000 that is structuring, as you quote, it's making deposits under $10,000 to evade reporting requirements. If you run a small business and make deposits of $5,000 because that's all you build up in a week, you have a pretty good chance of making the case that you are just doing your business. If you need $35,000 for some purpose and make 4 or 5 trips to the bank to get it, your explanation of why you needed to make 4 or 5 trips is sure to amuse the investigators.

monsterix 12y ago

Just out of curiosity: Can someone dealing purely with cryptocurrencies (like bitcoins) avoid this situation?

Alupis 12y ago
Not really, you have to first funnel your funds into bitcoin, which may trigger a review. Heck, if you use a US-based cryptocurrency "bank" like coinbase or similar, they may even "review" your account. (guess it's cash under the mattress for now ;)
- raquo 12y ago
  Woohoo, I don't need to change my Russian habits!
- programmarchy 12y ago
  He did say using purely cryptocurrencies, so if one was paid in crypto from the get-go and didn't have to convert to or from fiat, then an individual could protect their money, so long as they could keep their private keys secure. #opsec
  - beagle3 12y ago
    ... until you want to eat, and then realize you have to convert to a fiat currency because the grocery store doesn't accept bitcoins. Bitcoins are pseudonymous, rather than anonymous - and worse, every single transaction ever is documented in the blockchain. The IRS, I'm sure, is quite happy about this complete documentation, and while they haven't gotten around to (ab)using it, I'm sure they will sooner or later.
    - programmarchy 12y ago
      You can buy food with Bitcoin [1], although options are currently limited. I think this will continue to improve in the future as the counter-economy grows. And I agree that Bitcoin's lack of anonymity is a big problem. However, there are techniques one can use to keep transaction histories private, like using stealth addresses and decentralized, trustless mixing services like dark wallet and coinjoin [1]. Other cryptocurrencies like Darkcoin [2] have built privacy features into their protocol. These solutions are not yet perfect, but again I think they will continue to improve. Further agree that abuses by the IRS as well as other state agencies will continue. But why make it easier for them? It's only going to get worse in the future if we do nothing. [1] https://bitdazzle.com/food https://bitdazzle.com/food [2] https://wiki.anoncoin.net/Anonymity_of_cryptocurrencies https://wiki.anoncoin.net/Anonymity_of_cryptocurrencies [3] https://www.darkcoin.io https://www.darkcoin.io

chinesrestaur09 12y ago

Senorita and US Citizens. Hopefully the system works as well as in Meixco and Venezuela or the former Chile under the 'strong supreme leader.' 1.)big corporation tax loopholes. reason dot com. So with tax receipts falling thee is an incentive to crack down on small business . 2.)small business is the engine of growth, but there is no need due to printing of money in the shadow banking system. the shadow banking is a TECHNICAL TERM used by the Federal Reserve and global banking system. 3.)Maybe the shadow baning system hides in the shadows with the derivatives. Oh.... NO, NADA, NONE derivatives have been seized like the ';working captial' of small business? 4.)BUT the IRS is well run according to talk radio like the lawsuits about the IRSgate Lois Lerner scandals? Strange how all the government records 'disappeared.' 5.)this only happens to Mexican-Americans for perhaps the FREE AGENTS, consultants, small business and even shoe repair will be targeted? 6.)So, there is a BIG drug war going on. It is global, but the USA is the leader, IMHO. Using OUR leadership skills in making the world save for democracy and the US leadership in IRAQ and the list of other 39 countries.... 7.)So, there is a BIG drug war which is why most of the law enforcement highway stops are GOING SOUTH TO MEXICO. Why? 7a.)no great interest in stopping ttravelers GOING NORTH with possible durgs. 7b.)Travelers including average citizens GOING SOUTH have cash. reason dot com - police can seize it AND KEEP IT for 'police use.' Police use can include training - where else LAS VEGAS where prostitution is legal? Police use can include LUXURIES. 8.) this is in alleged possible preparation for the Cyprus bail-ins, where the governemtn seizes not only cash, but the bank accounts. 9.)First, raise the 10,000 ten thousand reporting requirment to ten times that or one hundred t. That allows any transaction, even 99,999$ to be investigated - that is seized. Of course, of course, the 'informal handshake merchants' as in the mid east and bitcoin, digital currency are still operating. so, perhaps most small businesses will go BIITCOIN? 22.)Will your local Chinese restaurant be affected? IMHO, NO! Eventually ALL the chinese restaurants, especialy those iin the nationa's captial will refuse to serve those who are 'tax collectors.' perhaps you may look at the references in the bible about tax collectors. PLEASE TARGET ALL CHINESE RESTAURANTS. what is your opinion? Better off, with no chinese restaurants - most are family owned and deal with cash.

chinesrestaur09 12y ago
standard governnment advice is to use the offical bureaucratic procedures. Senorita 1.)take the day's receipts and WORKING CAPITAL to Walmart, 24 hours 2.)wire it to MEXICO, with no questions asked 3.)need money every week to buy supplies of food? then have MEXICO holding company wire it back to you. 4.)send copies to nation's capital, with copies to Mr. President and if needed the lolcal police station. SERVE them the copies with videoape evidence when they arrive to eat. Make sure to blank out any identifiers or ask them to hold up the 'mask in front of the face.' 5.)raise the prices and also lower your profit, for THIS IS COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN THE USA, for Mr. President says, small business is the engine of growth in the USA and we have no recession. not legal or business advice, may be submitted to Colbert Report and other satire shows.

msoad 12y ago

Meanwhile corporate tax abuse has no criminal consequences for decision makers in the corporate!

morgante 12y ago

I'm as outraged by the practices of civil forfeiture and asset seizing as the next guy (our government is increasingly looking like a stationary bandit [1]). That being said, I'm not at all surprised that it happens and frankly not very worried: it's on a ridiculously small scale. There's a reason the NYT article focused on specific stories—the overall stats aren't exactly that scary. Of 639 seizures in 2012, 128 were legitimate. While 80% false positives doesn't seem good at first glance, consider that it's out of over 700,000 reports. Less than 0.1% of reports actually led to people's money being wrongfully seized—that's a low enough rate that it's hardly worth worrying about. If anything, I'm more worried that they're not catching more money launderers and tax evaders (only 128 seems awfully low in a country of 316 million). I think most of us would be hard-pressed to come up with a system which had a similarly low error rate. Paypal, for example, hardly does any better. Probably the biggest problem here is just that we don't provide effective enough mechanisms for remedying it. But this article doesn't even provide sufficient evidence of that. Take the Hirsch brothers who have been having trouble reclaiming their money. While that's unfortunate, I can totally understand how an all-cash family business which paid vendors in cash might have trouble providing adequate records. If I were with the IRS, I would have flagged them as well—tax evasion runs rampart in those sorts of family businesses. Yes, there's a small problem in our justice system (that it's hard to correct false positives). But it's hardly something the average person will ever be affected by. Focus on the scarier things, like systemic wiretapping. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mancur_Olson

jacquesm 12y ago
> Less than 0.1% of reports actually led to people's money being wrongfully seized—that's a low enough rate that it's hardly worth worrying about. Unless of course it is your money that is being wrongfully seized.
revelation 12y ago
And how many of the 128 were "drug traffickers, racketeers and terrorists"? There are always bigger problems. If a discussion thread just becomes long enough, eventually you get people telling us to be happy because there are others in Africa not having food.

hapless 12y ago

In two out of the three given examples, the people involved admit to deliberately structuring deposits to avoid reporting requirements. That is a crime, in and of itself. Ignorance is not a defense. These people were given bad advice by bank tellers and accountants, but they are still guilty. Being offered a settlement by the IRS is more than they should have hoped for. If anything, they're lucky to have been subject to civil forfeiture. In a criminal process, they would have lost all of the money, and also potentially spent time in prison.

MarkPNeyer 12y ago
"ignorance is not a defense" - It is a defense. Any reasonable person would accept "i did not know this thing i was doing, which hurts no one, was illegal" as defense against charges of a crime. It's just not a _legal_ defense because the legal system unreasonably expects people to know and comply with the massive, ever-growing battery of laws.
- bmelton 12y ago
  "It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows what the law is today can guess what is will be tomorrow." – James Madison
- cwp 12y ago
  Not only that, but the law in question explicitly references motive. Breaking a large deposit into smaller deposits is only illegal if you do it to avoid triggering reporting. So ignorance of the reporting requirements is a defence. If you didn't know it existed, how could you try to avoid it?
cwp 12y ago
If that's the case, they should have been prosecuted. Then they would have had the opportunity to defend themselves. Civil forfeiture mocks the the idea of justice.

carsongross 12y ago

And there's that boot again, grimly stomping on a human face...

sethbannon 12y ago

"in response to questions from The New York Times, the I.R.S. announced that it would curtail the practice" While it's upsetting that this practice happened in the first place, and even more upsetting that the judiciary seemed to allow it, it's a relief to know that the New York Times here fulfilled the intended role of a free press.

ende 12y ago
I heard both Tom Friedman and Paul Krugman were on the phone call and really had at them.
bmelton 12y ago
Even more upsetting than that is that they're just agreeing to curtail the practice, but the law is still on the books, waiting to be abused by the next administration, or the one after that. As I'm apparently quoting the hell out of founders and statesman today: "The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly." - Abraham Lincoln

NaOH 12y ago

Two good additional pieces. One is John Oliver's segment on this from his show Last Week Tonight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks&sns=em https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEpZWGgJks&sns=em The other is a piece by two of the people who were originally behind the law but say it has failed and should be abolished. http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20140923/DM04/140929808 http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20140923/DM04/140...

mindcrime 12y ago

For the 8 trillionth time, let me point out that this is a perfect example of why people should vote for Libertarian candidates. Pretty much NO Democrat or Republican is going to take any strong stand against this behavior... OTOH, pretty much ALL Libertarians would fiercely oppose this. So, this November, when you go up to that ballot box...

ipsin 12y ago

So as an individual who wants to conduct transactions involving more than $10,000, in increments of less than $10,000, what do you do? You can't file a Currency Transaction Report on amounts less than $10,000. You could demand that the bank file a "Suspicious Activity Report" on you, to make it very clear that you're not trying to evade limits, but ... they're under no obligation to do so, are they? And my understanding is that there's a Gag Order attached as well, and the recipients of the report probably won't get the nuance that "you asked for it" at all. I think the "structuring" rules are kept vague because well-defined rules would be used by people who wanted to avoid attention, for various reasons.

DanielBMarkham 12y ago

Sidebar: the IRS also has special privileges when it comes to viewing your private data. Most folks don't know this. If your account is "flagged" (for whatever reason by a worker) they can go online and take just about any personal data of yours they want. The only reason more people don't know about this is that they haven't started abusing it as much as they do funds seizure. The IRS (and tax law) has some egregious structural defects that will not be fixed with a law here or there. A complete overhaul is desperately needed.

CauseOrSolution 12y ago

When might makes right how far behind is a revolution to clean out the bullies and tyrants who made it possible? Have leaders not learned what turns the majority or vocal minority against them... not just at the ballot box, but by the guillotine, armed resistance, suicide bombers, snipers etc?

Constitution4Me 12y ago

Deposit less than $10,000 dollars at a time and the IRS seals your bank deposit - no evidence no charges required! ISIS chops heads off but IRS is chopping its own head off. Trust has gone, common sense, gone, justice gone. Picking on Mum and Pop businesses that deposit less than $10 000 and confiscating the money is a sickness. I have studied the constitution and casual violation of the amendments by authorities for mad reasons is a sure way to destroy the USA. Then ISIS can step in. My idea is to VOTE somebody in that ENFORCES THE CONSTITUTION so that violations require capital punishment BACKDATED! That would be fair and legal and can save the USA instead of kill it. It seams that applying laws because of criminals that clobber innocent people is brain less. Come to England and start your own business - you pay about 20% TAX. Please come away from the USA about to destroy itself.

nicwolff 12y ago

So, carry $18,000 and it gets seized by highway cops because law-abiding people just don't carry that much cash http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/st.... But take it to the bank in two batches of $9000 and it gets seized by the IRS because law-abiding people don't avoid large deposits.

Constitution4Me 12y ago

“You Nation of Cowards!”, says Eric Holder in his speech to the people of the USA. Yes he is calling us cowards! Holder is Obama's man, he is also the fall guy too. Perhaps he calls us cowards, because Americans put up with so much s-t from Obama, Holder, Bloomberg and Napolitano and do nothing. Is the IRS controlled by the mafia? Yes it is, but not for much longer! "We the people" do noting even to defend the very Constitution that saves us from these criminals. There is a heap of criminal evidence against them all, growing by the second, but everybody is a powerless coward! WHY? The judges are paid-off by this gov mafia. All it takes for them to have power is a threatening phone call. Sane legal teams that defend normal people are accused and sacked and then the mad legal teams take over - predictors against ordinary good people like you, like your sister or your brother or your father. Everything that is good is accused of being totally evil and everything that is evil promoted by the media and government, promoted out of Obamas own mouth. It's all upside down political correctness barking madness! The IRS is controlled by this mafia. The USA has gone to hell in a madhouse. The police are predictors dressed in black just like Na- zi storm troopers that shoot your own kids in the back! The law does not apply to the police and your life is worthless to them. You know that is true because of their swagger and they behave like school thugs. Police carry military hardware and shoot innocent people every day! A few good cops, a few good sheriffs, a few good military commanders are a threat to Obama. HE REMOVES THEM. I guess we voted the wrong man in because he has removed over 300 good US military generals and captains! The consequence is ISIS or ISIL take over - off with your heads and all this when Obama is playing golf. NOW! We draw a line in the sand. IT STOPS HERE! ----------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ NO MORE! So then the ARCH CRIMINAL HOLDER is actually right about: "WE THE PEOPLE BEING COWARDS". Is he right? He is laughing in our faces, except he does not realize that bravery starts out with inaction, starts with cowardly acts, or with shameful thoughts. Eventually a few brave men and women wake up, they are ashamed by their yellow bellies, ashamed by their drug habits, their past horrible mistakes are shameful, ashamed because they fail to defend their friends in trouble. Injustice is how a revolution starts and yellow bellies quickly become hard and brave and angry. DETERMINED NEVER TO BE COWARDLY AGAIN! NEVER TO TOLERATE EVIL SOCIALIST COMMUNISTS AGAIN. The USA will wake up, but will it be too late? Has the police state taken over already? Yes, it has! America is NOT free anymore! Worse Obama is dragging the rest of the world the same way. It is never too late and it is time to defend the Constitution which anticipated exactly these criminal minds taking over. For that reason the Constitution is an unrecognized genius that defends YOU against death by your own government. Obama knows exactly this fact and so he hates the Constitution of the United States of America. Almost every signature on paper makes him ARCH anti-Constitution reinforced. It is so obvious - it is as if 80% of Americans do not know their own constitution and are high on dope! Do you agree that clean minds must rule not criminals? Do you agree that you often tolerate what the rest of the world does not tolerate? If the IRS act like mafia then the IRS ARE MAFIA! If you simply tell them NO and everybody stands firm they absolutely cannot act against you. Why not say NO? Why not bring determined charges against them and charge them with treason because clearly their actions are killing the USA. Please Reply.

Constitution4Me 12y ago

The IRS violates the Bill of Rights directly and deliberately. They must realize that it will be defended. If these words for example were pulled down that would be a violation of the first amendment. The IRS is violating the 4th and 5th and 6th and 7th and 9th amendments which means they steal your money without lawful reasons. The 6th amendment is violated because they even deliberatly take additional money given to you to defend yourself in court and so they knowingly sabotage your ability to defend yourself because of the thefts out of your bank accounts. The 6th is also violated because the IRS cause legal delays and you have a right to speedy legal redress but they deliberatly delay this. Bill of Right in Plain English ------------------------------ First Amendment: Speak your mind freely for it is your right. Each and every persons has a right to freedom of speech, religion of choise, freedom to write what they like in the press or on the internet, freedom to gather, freedom to petition or protest against injustices. Second Amendment: Defend yourselves and your nation. Keep and bare armes in a well diciplined militia. The reason is that goverments often turn on the people so that we the people must be allowed to defend ourselves or defend against foreign invasion if the government itself fails to do this. An example of defending your country is defending the Mexican border against ISIS terrorists or against Ebola spreading because the government cannot or will not. Third Amendment: Your home is your home, it cannot be taken over by the army or navy or airforce or government force of any kind. You shall not be forced to house in your house soldiers even if they pay rent. For the same reason your property cannot be taken for military use even in a crisis and no other law can override this right. Fourth Amendment: No government agency shall search, spy on or steal from it citizens. Simply put the government shall not carry out unreasonable searches and seizures. This applies to the person, vehicles, houses, businesses, telecommunications equipment and computer equipment like your phone. This law makes intercepting information or hacking by goverments without warrents illegal because it is theft, and ureasonable spying. Thefts from bank accounts without legal warrents is theft and you can arrest those responsible both for theft and for violating the 4th Amendment. Fifth Amendment: No government agency or person shall take anything from you without due process and they sall not short cut such a process of law. You shall not be deprived of your life or liberty and freedom without being able to call upon the law to bring a possible defence using witnesses. Your property cannot be taken without the process of Law. You shall not be forced to talk if you do not wish to talk. You cannot stand trial twice for the same crime event. A court cannot presume guilt by you pleading the 5th. Sixth Amendment: You have the right to legally defend yourself. You have the right to a speedy public trial and access to witnesses. Seventy Amendment: If you are accused you have the right to a jury trial. The jury cannot be selected or illegally influenced in such a way as to cause a bias for or against you. Eighth Amendment: Government persons or agencies or any organization shall not sadistically or maliciously punish you. You shall not be given unrealistic bail or unrealistic fines. You shall not suffer cruel and unusual punishment. Common sense and fair! Ninth Amendment: You have many basic human rights as do visitors to your country. Even if these rights are not listed they shall not be taken from you nor violated. Examples include the right to defend others, the right to defend your country against socialist communists because they are destroying your country. The right to pronounce any laws that violates any of the Bill of Rights as invalid and to arrest those that attempt to destroy the Bill of Rights. The right to take photographs or videos in public places without being molested or threatened. The right to warn everybody that the US government is passing laws that violate all 10 amendments at the same time! The right to have the same rights as an American so as not be abused as a tourist or visitor. The right not to be sexually violated at the airport. The right to prove that personal violations at airports and ports is causing other nations to stop trading with the USA! The right to prove that the stock market is ultra fragile and represents false illusionary wealth. The right to arrest the police when they commit a crime. The right to lay down your life for the US Constitution and Bill of Rights without being accused of being a terrorist. The 9th amendment allows you to explain in plain English the meanings of all the amendments and to teach them is schools! The ninth allows you to put on death row with due process anybody for treason who tries to remove the Bill of Rights simply because attempting to remove or water down this law can result in the murder of millions of Americans, so you are legally obliged to prevent mass murders because of the 9th. The 9th amendment allows you to object to carrying out illegal orders even from the president himself. Tenth Amendment: The federal government shall not attempt to create laws that override state or local laws or act in any way outside its federal jurisdiction. FEMA for example has grown by combining many federal agencies together and frequently and illegally acts to violate the 10th as well as most of the other amendments. Instead of FEMA being a protective rescue organization it has become an internal brown shirt thug agency with military vehicles and gun boats. FEMA has become a predatory agency who are not your friends but your ultimate deadly enemy. Passing laws that violate state laws is a blatant violation of the 10th Amendment. Conclusion the Bill of Rights or Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America is YOUR FRIEND it was written by a genius to defend you, lose it and your own lives are is at risk. Your children's lives are at risk. The weakening of the Bill of Rights is already deadly to your family.