11 ms·

Old Masters: After 80, some people don’t retire. They reign

411 points by wallflower 12y ago

carlisle_ 12y ago
>I’m guessing there is no point to asking when you plan on retiring? >I’m going to retire in a box being carried out of my office. Brilliant.
- GFischer 12y ago
  He sounds a little like the former president of the company I work for (President is higher than CEO over here). He was extremely hardworking, wise and smart, he knew the business in and out, but he was pretty much set in his ways and did not delegate, and was hampering the company's growth (many of this kind of people try to keep their company manageable by themselves). He ended up being overthrown by a brilliantly executed palace coup (by a sociopath, but I digress), but he would have stayed until his death if left to his own decision. Actually, for some of the most driven workaholics, being retired is kind of a death sentence, it really does shorten their lives (most, being old, don't adapt to change well). My father is still young, but I'm betting he's going to do the same (he is the head of a law firm), and I'm glad not to have followed his career, he's going to cast a shadow over his potential successors for decades.
  - fuzzywalrus 12y ago
    My grandfather is cut from the same cloth, at 87 he still still farms and does hard physical labor. He's slowed down and is semi-retired but he golfs nearly every day when not working (carries his own bag for 18 holes). Retirement isn't an option for some people...
- AnimalMuppet 12y ago
  I don't want to retire. After you retire, there's only one big event left. - Steve Spurrier (I think, it's from memory)
  - Dewie 12y ago
    Sounds like someone who's whole life revolves around their work. Of course, if your whole life is about work, then it will only be finalized by perishing.
- mcguire 12y ago
  But keep in mind: "It seems important to you that you stay relevant. For example, you’re active on Twitter. "I don’t physically do it. My assistant does it for me. But I say what I want to say, and it gets on there." That's almost precisely not being active on Twitter.
  - mattgreenrocks 12y ago
    Hilarious that the author presumes 'relevance' is related to a Twitter presence.
jeffreyrogers 12y ago
The author of this article, Lewis Lapham [1], is himself quite accomplished at 79, and founded the magazine, Lapham's Quarterly [2], which might appeal to some HN readers. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_H._Lapham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_H._Lapham [2]: http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/ http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/
- Ollinson 12y ago
  Seconding that this is a great publication. A typical quarterly issue can contain excerpts from the Office Space screenplay to Schopenhauer.
- whytaka 12y ago
  Lapham's Quarterly is a literary treasure.
- subdane 12y ago
  I bummed a cigarette off him a couple years ago. Nice guy, and had a great conversation.
- hudibras 12y ago
  It's a testament to his thesis on Old Masters and Second Acts that you cite his founding of Lapham's Quarterly instead of him being the editor of Harper's for almost forty years.
nostromo 12y ago
I found this study to be interesting, regarding retirement age. http://ftp.iza.org/dp5160.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp5160.pdf > For males, we find that a reduction in the effective retirement age causes a significant increase in the risk of premature death > We do not find that earlier effective retirement increases the risk of premature death for females, however
- hkmurakami 12y ago
  I have to initially suspect that this difference between the genders has at least something to do with the fact that often -- particularly in the eras of the currently elderly -- the "work" of a female extended well beyond the office and into the household. Retirement may end the office duties, but the household duties will continue.
  - clarkm 12y ago
    I doubt that contributes, because it's not just limited to humans. Females of most species live longer than males.
    - NeverEnough 12y ago
      he is suggesting it as an explanation for retirement contributing to premature death in men more than in women, not the difference in life expectancy in general.
      - thisGuysAccount 12y ago
        It could be related to post-retirement activities. Men, as a hypothetical, might take up drinking and fishing, leading to an increase in mortality caused by liver failure, cancer, what have you. Women, again as a hypothetical, might take up other activities that don't increase mortality.
- seanflyon 12y ago
  It is hard to determine the causal relationship; I think it goes in both directions: those who are closer to death are more likely to retire and those who retire are more likely to die sooner.
dag11 12y ago
Betty White's responses are fantastic. Her humor really shines through!
IvyMike 12y ago
I know we have skepticism over the 10k hours of practice theory, but I still kinda like it, at least in broad strokes. And if there's going to be another "10x" level, these are probably them. 100k hours of effortful practice, at 2500 hours per year = 40 years. Crazy.
- imjk 12y ago
  10k hours playing basketball isn't going to make you a professional basketball player, but I would imagine 10k hours painting, writing, or doing many other professional endeavors will certainly help you to earn a livable wage if not excel in your field.
- Kluny 12y ago
  James Altucher had a great spin on it. He says that maybe it takes 10,000 hours to master something, but with only 1000 hours, you can get pretty good. And that only takes a year of fitting it in for 20 hours a week. Even 100 hours of practice at any particular skill will make you better at it than most people, and you can do that in like 2 hours a week for 6 months. If you feel like mastering it after that, go for it, but if you frame it as "I can have a new skill after about 6 months of practice" instead of "I can be a master in 10 years of super hard work", you're a lot more likely to try it.
chriskanan 12y ago
The article is missing Ephraim Engleman, who is still a practicing medical doctor and researcher at 103 at UCSF Medical Center: http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/Dr-Ephraim-Engleman-is-102-and-has-no-plans-to-5285486.php http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/Dr-Ephraim-Engle... If you are doing what you love or work that is important, why retire?
- dvt 12y ago
  Thank you for the article! His life seems fascinating.
- deleted 12y ago
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- billmalarky 12y ago
  It appears his wife is alive and well at 98. Happily married for 72 years! A year longer than the average global lifespan.
- tomkinstinch 12y ago
  And also Esther M. Conwell, semiconductor physicist and recipient of the National Medal of Science. She's still publishing and mentoring grad students at 92. http://www.rochester.edu/news/conwell.html http://www.rochester.edu/news/conwell.html
MattGrommes 12y ago
Reminds me of the story Merlin Mann tells about the butcher who when asked what trick he uses to know that he picked up exactly a pound of meat responds "Be a butcher for 20 years".
- jkaunisv1 12y ago
  That's kung fu, and it's extremely satisfying to cultivate it in everything you do. I've been inspired to learn how to do stuff like that since I saw a chef drop ingredients into a recipe without measuring.
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nobody_nowhere 12y ago
"I just love to work" - Betty White. Love this article. Be realistic. Recognize patterns. Love what do you do. Inspiring.
thrownaway2424 12y ago
I thought Robert Caro would belong on this list. He amazes me, having written over the course of five decades two seminal books, both of which earned Pulitzer prizes. But he's "only" 79. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Caro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Caro
diego_moita 12y ago
Brazilian architect Oscar Niemeyer died working, at the age of 104 years. 2 years before his death he was visited by a Brazilian journalist, for an interview. After he knew the journalist was in his late 50s he commented: "Oh, so young! You got your whole life in front of you!"
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thebear 12y ago
I liked Woody Allen's answer to the question why he was still working in his late seventies: You know in a mental institution they sometimes give a person some clay or some basket weaving? It’s the therapy of moviemaking that has been good in my life. If you don’t work, it’s unhealthy—for me, particularly unhealthy. I could sit here suffering from morbid introspection, ruing my mortality, being anxious. But it’s very therapeutic to get up and think, Can I get this actor; does my third act work? All these solvable problems that are delightful puzzles, as opposed to the great puzzles of life that are unsolvable, or that have very bad solutions. So I get pleasure from doing this. It’s my version of basket weaving.
- vacri 12y ago
  A shorter version is "My work is engaging and fun, and I can choose my own pace". If Allen was in a physical trade, his body might no longer be up to it. If he was in menial work, retirement would be more engaging - few factory workers or street cleaners would consider their work 'basket weaving'.
  - jzwinck 12y ago
    > few factory workers [...] would consider their work 'basket weaving'. I had the pleasure of working with a machinist named Bill who was probably 70 years old. He was an artist with tools twice as old as I was, sometimes five times that. After decades of experience there were no doubts about his products, no mistakes. He even included ergonomic touches not specified in the plans so that people using his products as tools downstream would have less chance of mistakes themselves. When asked about some of the other people working in the factory, mostly 20-somethings, he said, "They are strong, but they have no finesse." Bill was a 10x employee, and he wove the hell out of those baskets.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      All I have to say is, watch this - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-d-une-lampe-triode_tech http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-d-une-la...
pyrrhotech 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Kahn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Kahn Irving Kahn, still working on Wall Street at 108--and finding stocks to buy for the long run
rfrey 12y ago
My favourite examples are two woodworkers who I admire greatly, Sam Maloof and James Krenov. Maloof was still making his rockers at 94, maybe a bit slower but not much. Krenov sadly lost much of his eyesight in his late 80s so stopped making cabinets. But he continued to make planes, because he could make them by feel.
bttf 12y ago
I'm surprised no one has considered how older aged workers fit in the software engineering industry. From my experience it seems like the older you get, the less viable you are.
- WalterBright 12y ago
  We just design new programming languages.
  - zerr 12y ago
    That's a great hobby when you're financially independent ;)
    - WalterBright 12y ago
      D has always been a professional language. I've been in this business a long time, and knew what had to be done to make it so.
- malandrew 12y ago
  I don't think this is exclusive to software engineer. In most professions with a technical aspect, the majority coast through most of their career simply applying with what they learned in college and in their 20s. Far fewer spend a considerable amount of energy not only applying what they've learned already, but also digging deeper into the fundamentals and staying on top of new developments in their field. It is this latter group who simply become more and more valuable over time, while the skills and abilities of the former group becomes less and less relevant with each passing year. Basically, it boils down to a majority that learns a trade and a minority that learn how to learn. The key to changing this is to change our educational system to one where teachers focus on learning as the primary skill being taught. The maker movement most closely embodies a culture that values learning to learn.
- thrownaway2424 12y ago
  Your experience is that you are less viable as time marches on? Or you perceive older people to be so? Where I worked the "10x" engineers (who are legendary) are among the eldest.
boblozano 12y ago
Dr. Jerry Cox is 89, leads his latest startup[1], remains a sr. cs professor @WashU[2], sold a company he co-founded (Growth Networks) for >$355M to Cisco in 2000, and is generally smart and inspiring. Also sat for a formal oral history focused on his contributions to biomedical computing[3]. [1] http://blendics.com/team/ http://blendics.com/team/ [2] http://cse.wustl.edu/PEOPLE/Pages/cox.aspx http://cse.wustl.edu/PEOPLE/Pages/cox.aspx [3] http://beckerexhibits.wustl.edu/oral/transcripts/cox.html http://beckerexhibits.wustl.edu/oral/transcripts/cox.html
GuiA 12y ago
I am currently reading "Old Masters and Young Geniuses: The Two Life Cycles of Artistic Creativity" [0]. The author starts with the observation that in the world of fine art, it seems that the artists who encountered great success are divided into 2 broad groups: the ones who had a clear vision (often groundbreaking) of what they wanted to accomplish, did it while they were young, peaking early (Young Geniuses); and the ones whose approach was more iterative, built upon theory and learning, who never stopped improving over their lifetime, and whose vision was established over decades (Old Masters). To support this thesis, he looks at concrete data: for example, for the artists whose paintings sold for the most money, at what age did they paint the works which would later sell for the most? Or, to use an alternative method of approximating "success" - for the works that are most often included in art textbooks, at what age were they painted by their authors? [1] He goes over several measures of "success" in this way, and the data maps pretty well with the commonly accepted wisdom for each artist (e.g. Picasso peaked early, and his later works are nowhere as remembered as his earlier stuff, while Cézanne took a lifetime to build his approach and vision). He then looks into what those artists had to say about their processes, and how that relates to those findings; and he then explores this thesis beyond just the world of fine art. It's a fairly dense read - especially if, like me, you have very little knowledge of fine art (in which case I recommend looking up the works as you read the book, even if it doubles your reading time) - but it's extremely enlightening. Highly recommended. [0] http://www.amazon.com/Old-Masters-Young-Geniuses-Creativity/dp/0691133808/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1414120533&sr=8-11&keywords=old+masters http://www.amazon.com/Old-Masters-Young-Geniuses-Creativity/... [1] http://i.imgur.com/YmexHi8.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YmexHi8.jpg
- FranOntanaya 12y ago
  There's probably no big mystery behind this. For most folks the 30's would be when their number of dependent offspring capable of bipedal motion peaked.
  - louhike 12y ago
    As a non-native english speaker, I am not sure I get it. Do you mean they do less things in their 30's because they have children to take care of?
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japhyr 12y ago
One of my heroes is Fred Beckey. He's a lifelong climber, and is still climbing into his 90's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Beckey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Beckey http://www.mountainproject.com/v/fred-beckey-90-years-old-climbing-in-jtree/107955528 http://www.mountainproject.com/v/fred-beckey-90-years-old-cl...
- Evgeny 12y ago
  I will add him to the list of my heroes, right next to Jack Lalanne, who was a fitness enthusiast and lived a healthy and active life till 96. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne
  - whatusername 12y ago
    http://www.elitefeet.com/the-legend-of-cliff-young http://www.elitefeet.com/the-legend-of-cliff-young might be of interest. (I think that take is only 80% accurate -- but it captures the drama of his most famous achievement (at age 61!) better than Wikipedia: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_Young_(athlete) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_Young_(athlete) )
    - japhyr 12y ago
      That's an incredible and inspiring story. Thanks for sharing, I had never heard of him before.
Sprezzaturian 12y ago
I am 42 and I am retired - and loving it. It means I have all the time in the world for doing things I really like, instead of staring at stock market charts all day long. mikaelsyding.com
ExpiredLink 12y ago
Unfortunately, writing programs isn't an occupation for old people. EDIT: To be more precise, I cannot image that I will write a program after my retirement. To me, writing ephemeral programs is the opposite of the artful activities described in the article.
- Spearchucker 12y ago
  It is very very much an occupation for anyone who chooses it - including old people. Young people happen to have this illusion it isn't. What better time to start your own software business than when you've retired?
- DanBC 12y ago
  Surpising to see discrimination expressed so blatantly. Luckily it's illegal in at least US[1], UK[2], etc etc. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employment_Act_of_1967 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employmen... [2] http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/private-and-public-sector-guidance/guidance-all/protected-characteristics http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/private-and-public-sector...
  - ColinCera 12y ago
    Unluckily those laws are basically unenforceable and age discrimination in software development is rampant.
  - ExpiredLink 12y ago
    > Surpising to see discrimination expressed so blatantly. It's not at all 'discrimination'. BTW, I'm not young any more. Programming just isn't worth it.
- m0nty 12y ago
  > Unfortunately, writing programs isn't an occupation for old people. Why not?
- snowwrestler 12y ago
  Most art is ephemeral too. And some software is in use for a very long time.
sireat 12y ago
If you have been doing something all your life and you enjoy doing it why stop? However, the question I have been struggling with lately has been: how do you pick up something new later on in life? If you start to learn basket-weaving at 40, you are not going to be a great basket-weaver. If you start programming at 40, you are not going to become Bill Joy or Fabrice Bellard, sorry. (counterexamples in any field welcome) Your 10k hours count for much less at 40 than at 15. That guy(Danplan) who started golfing to become a Pro at 28 is slowly starting to find that out despite his progress. So you have to pick your fights very carefully, if you are a chess master you can probably become a decent shogi or go player and vice versa. If you have a solid foundation in math, you can probably do decent physics work at 40. However, and this is what worries me, if your art in grade 5 was dismal, are you going to be able to get decent at 40? That one lady in article sold her first painting at 89, but the question is whether she took up painting late in life or was that just a lucky fluke. (selling != enjoying painting)
- dan00 12y ago
  > However, the question I have been struggling with lately has been: how do you pick up something new later on in life? > If you start to learn basket-weaving at 40, you are not going to be a great basket-weaver. > If you start programming at 40, you are not going to become Bill Joy or Fabrice Bellard, sorry. (counterexamples in any field welcome) This kind of thinking is pretty much the result of an only performance oriented culture. You don't need to be the greatest of the greatest to enjoy what you're doing or to make something valuable for other people.
- superasn 12y ago
  > If you start to learn basket-weaving at 40, you are not going to be a great basket-weaver. Sometimes just learning things is the goal. E.g. I'm learning German in my free time (as a new hobby) and surely I will never be a great german speaker/writer but then I don't aspire to be. Maybe I will have a use for it later, maybe not. If you focus too much on the prize rather than what interests you and makes you happy doing it, you will lose the motivation to get started because it is easy to dismiss everything by saying "why bother I'm never going to be that great now"
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kayoone 12y ago
Don't fool yourself, these people are amazing, but hey are outliers. While i understand that many people here aspire to be like this and you should, realistically speaking these people have been very lucky. Most people 80+ either have trouble walking, hearing, seeing, thinking (or any combination combined). It's longer than the average lifespan, so that these people can still do their work in a meaningful way is a godsend. Sure, you can do a lot with a healthy lifestyle, but still there are limits to your genes, or life could take unexpected turns every second. My uncle, 62 years old, CEO of a bank, who was always healthy and fit just had a stroke and is now wheelchair bound and does not know which year it is. Meanwhile, his brother (my dad), has been smoking his whole life and not exercised for decades but is still fine. he probably won't get to 80 though, and he knows that.
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csbrooks 12y ago
I loved the article. One note: not all retirement is necessarily sitting in front of the tv waiting to die. My grandfather is 81, and he and his wife are very active RVers. They travel around the country, hike, go four wheeling in their jeep. He seems about as happy as the people in the article.
leoc 12y ago
What, no props to our main man here? http://cs.stanford.edu/~uno/ http://cs.stanford.edu/~uno/ http://laughingsquid.com/jacob-appelbaum-donald-knuth-demonstrate-the-recursive-homeboys-principle/ http://laughingsquid.com/jacob-appelbaum-donald-knuth-demons... All right, he isn't quite 80 yet, but looking good so far...
lateguy 12y ago
One Great example for above will be Jiri One: A Japanese Master chef for shushi, I would say if there is only one documentary you will see this month. Let it be this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi
- myth_buster 12y ago
  Highly recommended. Available on Netflix.
  - lateguy 12y ago
    Will be glad to know , what you learnt from it?
    - ohashi 12y ago
      You learn about complete dedication to craft. And some of the trade offs people make to pursue it.
    - Fuzzwah 12y ago
      I found Jiro's son to be the more interesting character. The way he talks about being raised in the shadow of a master and choosing to follow in his father's footsteps is touching.
gadders 12y ago
I feel sorry for the 80 year old manual workers. I would expect it's harder for them...
mcguire 12y ago
"So how do you stay in shape? "I have a two-story house and a very bad memory, so I’m up and down those stairs all the time. That’s my exercise." I love Betty White.
brandall10 12y ago
Why is there no mention of Frank Lloyd Wright? The man is one of the most celebrated architects in the history of the field, and he created his masterwork (Fallingwater) when he was 71. Furthermore, his output over the last 20 years of his life accounted for more than half of his lifetime output. He died while in the middle of creating the Guggenheim - simply did not stop. Interestingly enough his life arc was quite similar to Steve Jobs.
hoprocker 12y ago
Beautiful photos, fascinating interview snippets. I love compelling narratives that remind us that life isn't over at 30.

411 points by wallflower 12y ago

>I’m guessing there is no point to asking when you plan on retiring? >I’m going to retire in a box being carried out of my office. Brilliant.

GFischer 12y ago
He sounds a little like the former president of the company I work for (President is higher than CEO over here). He was extremely hardworking, wise and smart, he knew the business in and out, but he was pretty much set in his ways and did not delegate, and was hampering the company's growth (many of this kind of people try to keep their company manageable by themselves). He ended up being overthrown by a brilliantly executed palace coup (by a sociopath, but I digress), but he would have stayed until his death if left to his own decision. Actually, for some of the most driven workaholics, being retired is kind of a death sentence, it really does shorten their lives (most, being old, don't adapt to change well). My father is still young, but I'm betting he's going to do the same (he is the head of a law firm), and I'm glad not to have followed his career, he's going to cast a shadow over his potential successors for decades.
- fuzzywalrus 12y ago
  My grandfather is cut from the same cloth, at 87 he still still farms and does hard physical labor. He's slowed down and is semi-retired but he golfs nearly every day when not working (carries his own bag for 18 holes). Retirement isn't an option for some people...
AnimalMuppet 12y ago
I don't want to retire. After you retire, there's only one big event left. - Steve Spurrier (I think, it's from memory)
- Dewie 12y ago
  Sounds like someone who's whole life revolves around their work. Of course, if your whole life is about work, then it will only be finalized by perishing.
mcguire 12y ago
But keep in mind: "It seems important to you that you stay relevant. For example, you’re active on Twitter. "I don’t physically do it. My assistant does it for me. But I say what I want to say, and it gets on there." That's almost precisely not being active on Twitter.
- mattgreenrocks 12y ago
  Hilarious that the author presumes 'relevance' is related to a Twitter presence.

jeffreyrogers 12y ago

The author of this article, Lewis Lapham [1], is himself quite accomplished at 79, and founded the magazine, Lapham's Quarterly [2], which might appeal to some HN readers. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_H._Lapham https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_H._Lapham [2]: http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/ http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/

Ollinson 12y ago
Seconding that this is a great publication. A typical quarterly issue can contain excerpts from the Office Space screenplay to Schopenhauer.
whytaka 12y ago
Lapham's Quarterly is a literary treasure.
subdane 12y ago
I bummed a cigarette off him a couple years ago. Nice guy, and had a great conversation.
hudibras 12y ago
It's a testament to his thesis on Old Masters and Second Acts that you cite his founding of Lapham's Quarterly instead of him being the editor of Harper's for almost forty years.

nostromo 12y ago

I found this study to be interesting, regarding retirement age. http://ftp.iza.org/dp5160.pdf http://ftp.iza.org/dp5160.pdf > For males, we find that a reduction in the effective retirement age causes a significant increase in the risk of premature death > We do not find that earlier effective retirement increases the risk of premature death for females, however

hkmurakami 12y ago
I have to initially suspect that this difference between the genders has at least something to do with the fact that often -- particularly in the eras of the currently elderly -- the "work" of a female extended well beyond the office and into the household. Retirement may end the office duties, but the household duties will continue.
- clarkm 12y ago
  I doubt that contributes, because it's not just limited to humans. Females of most species live longer than males.
  - NeverEnough 12y ago
    he is suggesting it as an explanation for retirement contributing to premature death in men more than in women, not the difference in life expectancy in general.
    - thisGuysAccount 12y ago
      It could be related to post-retirement activities. Men, as a hypothetical, might take up drinking and fishing, leading to an increase in mortality caused by liver failure, cancer, what have you. Women, again as a hypothetical, might take up other activities that don't increase mortality.
seanflyon 12y ago
It is hard to determine the causal relationship; I think it goes in both directions: those who are closer to death are more likely to retire and those who retire are more likely to die sooner.

dag11 12y ago

Betty White's responses are fantastic. Her humor really shines through!

IvyMike 12y ago

I know we have skepticism over the 10k hours of practice theory, but I still kinda like it, at least in broad strokes. And if there's going to be another "10x" level, these are probably them. 100k hours of effortful practice, at 2500 hours per year = 40 years. Crazy.

imjk 12y ago
10k hours playing basketball isn't going to make you a professional basketball player, but I would imagine 10k hours painting, writing, or doing many other professional endeavors will certainly help you to earn a livable wage if not excel in your field.
Kluny 12y ago
James Altucher had a great spin on it. He says that maybe it takes 10,000 hours to master something, but with only 1000 hours, you can get pretty good. And that only takes a year of fitting it in for 20 hours a week. Even 100 hours of practice at any particular skill will make you better at it than most people, and you can do that in like 2 hours a week for 6 months. If you feel like mastering it after that, go for it, but if you frame it as "I can have a new skill after about 6 months of practice" instead of "I can be a master in 10 years of super hard work", you're a lot more likely to try it.

chriskanan 12y ago

The article is missing Ephraim Engleman, who is still a practicing medical doctor and researcher at 103 at UCSF Medical Center: http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/Dr-Ephraim-Engleman-is-102-and-has-no-plans-to-5285486.php http://www.sfgate.com/entertainment/article/Dr-Ephraim-Engle... If you are doing what you love or work that is important, why retire?

dvt 12y ago
Thank you for the article! His life seems fascinating.
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billmalarky 12y ago
It appears his wife is alive and well at 98. Happily married for 72 years! A year longer than the average global lifespan.
tomkinstinch 12y ago
And also Esther M. Conwell, semiconductor physicist and recipient of the National Medal of Science. She's still publishing and mentoring grad students at 92. http://www.rochester.edu/news/conwell.html http://www.rochester.edu/news/conwell.html

MattGrommes 12y ago

Reminds me of the story Merlin Mann tells about the butcher who when asked what trick he uses to know that he picked up exactly a pound of meat responds "Be a butcher for 20 years".

jkaunisv1 12y ago
That's kung fu, and it's extremely satisfying to cultivate it in everything you do. I've been inspired to learn how to do stuff like that since I saw a chef drop ingredients into a recipe without measuring.

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nobody_nowhere 12y ago

"I just love to work" - Betty White. Love this article. Be realistic. Recognize patterns. Love what do you do. Inspiring.

thrownaway2424 12y ago

I thought Robert Caro would belong on this list. He amazes me, having written over the course of five decades two seminal books, both of which earned Pulitzer prizes. But he's "only" 79. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Caro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Caro

diego_moita 12y ago

Brazilian architect Oscar Niemeyer died working, at the age of 104 years. 2 years before his death he was visited by a Brazilian journalist, for an interview. After he knew the journalist was in his late 50s he commented: "Oh, so young! You got your whole life in front of you!"

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thebear 12y ago

I liked Woody Allen's answer to the question why he was still working in his late seventies: You know in a mental institution they sometimes give a person some clay or some basket weaving? It’s the therapy of moviemaking that has been good in my life. If you don’t work, it’s unhealthy—for me, particularly unhealthy. I could sit here suffering from morbid introspection, ruing my mortality, being anxious. But it’s very therapeutic to get up and think, Can I get this actor; does my third act work? All these solvable problems that are delightful puzzles, as opposed to the great puzzles of life that are unsolvable, or that have very bad solutions. So I get pleasure from doing this. It’s my version of basket weaving.

vacri 12y ago
A shorter version is "My work is engaging and fun, and I can choose my own pace". If Allen was in a physical trade, his body might no longer be up to it. If he was in menial work, retirement would be more engaging - few factory workers or street cleaners would consider their work 'basket weaving'.
- jzwinck 12y ago
  > few factory workers [...] would consider their work 'basket weaving'. I had the pleasure of working with a machinist named Bill who was probably 70 years old. He was an artist with tools twice as old as I was, sometimes five times that. After decades of experience there were no doubts about his products, no mistakes. He even included ergonomic touches not specified in the plans so that people using his products as tools downstream would have less chance of mistakes themselves. When asked about some of the other people working in the factory, mostly 20-somethings, he said, "They are strong, but they have no finesse." Bill was a 10x employee, and he wove the hell out of those baskets.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    All I have to say is, watch this - http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-d-une-lampe-triode_tech http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3wrzo_fabrication-d-une-la...

pyrrhotech 12y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Kahn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Kahn Irving Kahn, still working on Wall Street at 108--and finding stocks to buy for the long run

rfrey 12y ago

My favourite examples are two woodworkers who I admire greatly, Sam Maloof and James Krenov. Maloof was still making his rockers at 94, maybe a bit slower but not much. Krenov sadly lost much of his eyesight in his late 80s so stopped making cabinets. But he continued to make planes, because he could make them by feel.

bttf 12y ago

I'm surprised no one has considered how older aged workers fit in the software engineering industry. From my experience it seems like the older you get, the less viable you are.

WalterBright 12y ago
We just design new programming languages.
- zerr 12y ago
  That's a great hobby when you're financially independent ;)
  - WalterBright 12y ago
    D has always been a professional language. I've been in this business a long time, and knew what had to be done to make it so.
malandrew 12y ago
I don't think this is exclusive to software engineer. In most professions with a technical aspect, the majority coast through most of their career simply applying with what they learned in college and in their 20s. Far fewer spend a considerable amount of energy not only applying what they've learned already, but also digging deeper into the fundamentals and staying on top of new developments in their field. It is this latter group who simply become more and more valuable over time, while the skills and abilities of the former group becomes less and less relevant with each passing year. Basically, it boils down to a majority that learns a trade and a minority that learn how to learn. The key to changing this is to change our educational system to one where teachers focus on learning as the primary skill being taught. The maker movement most closely embodies a culture that values learning to learn.
thrownaway2424 12y ago
Your experience is that you are less viable as time marches on? Or you perceive older people to be so? Where I worked the "10x" engineers (who are legendary) are among the eldest.

boblozano 12y ago

Dr. Jerry Cox is 89, leads his latest startup[1], remains a sr. cs professor @WashU[2], sold a company he co-founded (Growth Networks) for >$355M to Cisco in 2000, and is generally smart and inspiring. Also sat for a formal oral history focused on his contributions to biomedical computing[3]. [1] http://blendics.com/team/ http://blendics.com/team/ [2] http://cse.wustl.edu/PEOPLE/Pages/cox.aspx http://cse.wustl.edu/PEOPLE/Pages/cox.aspx [3] http://beckerexhibits.wustl.edu/oral/transcripts/cox.html http://beckerexhibits.wustl.edu/oral/transcripts/cox.html

GuiA 12y ago

I am currently reading "Old Masters and Young Geniuses: The Two Life Cycles of Artistic Creativity" [0]. The author starts with the observation that in the world of fine art, it seems that the artists who encountered great success are divided into 2 broad groups: the ones who had a clear vision (often groundbreaking) of what they wanted to accomplish, did it while they were young, peaking early (Young Geniuses); and the ones whose approach was more iterative, built upon theory and learning, who never stopped improving over their lifetime, and whose vision was established over decades (Old Masters). To support this thesis, he looks at concrete data: for example, for the artists whose paintings sold for the most money, at what age did they paint the works which would later sell for the most? Or, to use an alternative method of approximating "success" - for the works that are most often included in art textbooks, at what age were they painted by their authors? [1] He goes over several measures of "success" in this way, and the data maps pretty well with the commonly accepted wisdom for each artist (e.g. Picasso peaked early, and his later works are nowhere as remembered as his earlier stuff, while Cézanne took a lifetime to build his approach and vision). He then looks into what those artists had to say about their processes, and how that relates to those findings; and he then explores this thesis beyond just the world of fine art. It's a fairly dense read - especially if, like me, you have very little knowledge of fine art (in which case I recommend looking up the works as you read the book, even if it doubles your reading time) - but it's extremely enlightening. Highly recommended. [0] http://www.amazon.com/Old-Masters-Young-Geniuses-Creativity/dp/0691133808/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1414120533&sr=8-11&keywords=old+masters http://www.amazon.com/Old-Masters-Young-Geniuses-Creativity/... [1] http://i.imgur.com/YmexHi8.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YmexHi8.jpg

FranOntanaya 12y ago
There's probably no big mystery behind this. For most folks the 30's would be when their number of dependent offspring capable of bipedal motion peaked.
- louhike 12y ago
  As a non-native english speaker, I am not sure I get it. Do you mean they do less things in their 30's because they have children to take care of?

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japhyr 12y ago

One of my heroes is Fred Beckey. He's a lifelong climber, and is still climbing into his 90's. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Beckey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Beckey http://www.mountainproject.com/v/fred-beckey-90-years-old-climbing-in-jtree/107955528 http://www.mountainproject.com/v/fred-beckey-90-years-old-cl...

Evgeny 12y ago
I will add him to the list of my heroes, right next to Jack Lalanne, who was a fitness enthusiast and lived a healthy and active life till 96. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne
- whatusername 12y ago
  http://www.elitefeet.com/the-legend-of-cliff-young http://www.elitefeet.com/the-legend-of-cliff-young might be of interest. (I think that take is only 80% accurate -- but it captures the drama of his most famous achievement (at age 61!) better than Wikipedia: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_Young_(athlete) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cliff_Young_(athlete) )
  - japhyr 12y ago
    That's an incredible and inspiring story. Thanks for sharing, I had never heard of him before.

Sprezzaturian 12y ago

I am 42 and I am retired - and loving it. It means I have all the time in the world for doing things I really like, instead of staring at stock market charts all day long. mikaelsyding.com

ExpiredLink 12y ago

Unfortunately, writing programs isn't an occupation for old people. EDIT: To be more precise, I cannot image that I will write a program after my retirement. To me, writing ephemeral programs is the opposite of the artful activities described in the article.

Spearchucker 12y ago
It is very very much an occupation for anyone who chooses it - including old people. Young people happen to have this illusion it isn't. What better time to start your own software business than when you've retired?
DanBC 12y ago
Surpising to see discrimination expressed so blatantly. Luckily it's illegal in at least US[1], UK[2], etc etc. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employment_Act_of_1967 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_Discrimination_in_Employmen... [2] http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/private-and-public-sector-guidance/guidance-all/protected-characteristics http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/private-and-public-sector...
- ColinCera 12y ago
  Unluckily those laws are basically unenforceable and age discrimination in software development is rampant.
- ExpiredLink 12y ago
  > Surpising to see discrimination expressed so blatantly. It's not at all 'discrimination'. BTW, I'm not young any more. Programming just isn't worth it.
m0nty 12y ago
> Unfortunately, writing programs isn't an occupation for old people. Why not?
snowwrestler 12y ago
Most art is ephemeral too. And some software is in use for a very long time.

sireat 12y ago

If you have been doing something all your life and you enjoy doing it why stop? However, the question I have been struggling with lately has been: how do you pick up something new later on in life? If you start to learn basket-weaving at 40, you are not going to be a great basket-weaver. If you start programming at 40, you are not going to become Bill Joy or Fabrice Bellard, sorry. (counterexamples in any field welcome) Your 10k hours count for much less at 40 than at 15. That guy(Danplan) who started golfing to become a Pro at 28 is slowly starting to find that out despite his progress. So you have to pick your fights very carefully, if you are a chess master you can probably become a decent shogi or go player and vice versa. If you have a solid foundation in math, you can probably do decent physics work at 40. However, and this is what worries me, if your art in grade 5 was dismal, are you going to be able to get decent at 40? That one lady in article sold her first painting at 89, but the question is whether she took up painting late in life or was that just a lucky fluke. (selling != enjoying painting)

dan00 12y ago
> However, the question I have been struggling with lately has been: how do you pick up something new later on in life? > If you start to learn basket-weaving at 40, you are not going to be a great basket-weaver. > If you start programming at 40, you are not going to become Bill Joy or Fabrice Bellard, sorry. (counterexamples in any field welcome) This kind of thinking is pretty much the result of an only performance oriented culture. You don't need to be the greatest of the greatest to enjoy what you're doing or to make something valuable for other people.
superasn 12y ago
> If you start to learn basket-weaving at 40, you are not going to be a great basket-weaver. Sometimes just learning things is the goal. E.g. I'm learning German in my free time (as a new hobby) and surely I will never be a great german speaker/writer but then I don't aspire to be. Maybe I will have a use for it later, maybe not. If you focus too much on the prize rather than what interests you and makes you happy doing it, you will lose the motivation to get started because it is easy to dismiss everything by saying "why bother I'm never going to be that great now"
12y ago

kayoone 12y ago

Don't fool yourself, these people are amazing, but hey are outliers. While i understand that many people here aspire to be like this and you should, realistically speaking these people have been very lucky. Most people 80+ either have trouble walking, hearing, seeing, thinking (or any combination combined). It's longer than the average lifespan, so that these people can still do their work in a meaningful way is a godsend. Sure, you can do a lot with a healthy lifestyle, but still there are limits to your genes, or life could take unexpected turns every second. My uncle, 62 years old, CEO of a bank, who was always healthy and fit just had a stroke and is now wheelchair bound and does not know which year it is. Meanwhile, his brother (my dad), has been smoking his whole life and not exercised for decades but is still fine. he probably won't get to 80 though, and he knows that.

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csbrooks 12y ago

I loved the article. One note: not all retirement is necessarily sitting in front of the tv waiting to die. My grandfather is 81, and he and his wife are very active RVers. They travel around the country, hike, go four wheeling in their jeep. He seems about as happy as the people in the article.

leoc 12y ago

What, no props to our main man here? http://cs.stanford.edu/~uno/ http://cs.stanford.edu/~uno/ http://laughingsquid.com/jacob-appelbaum-donald-knuth-demonstrate-the-recursive-homeboys-principle/ http://laughingsquid.com/jacob-appelbaum-donald-knuth-demons... All right, he isn't quite 80 yet, but looking good so far...

lateguy 12y ago

One Great example for above will be Jiri One: A Japanese Master chef for shushi, I would say if there is only one documentary you will see this month. Let it be this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiro_Dreams_of_Sushi

myth_buster 12y ago
Highly recommended. Available on Netflix.
- lateguy 12y ago
  Will be glad to know , what you learnt from it?
  - ohashi 12y ago
    You learn about complete dedication to craft. And some of the trade offs people make to pursue it.
  - Fuzzwah 12y ago
    I found Jiro's son to be the more interesting character. The way he talks about being raised in the shadow of a master and choosing to follow in his father's footsteps is touching.

gadders 12y ago

I feel sorry for the 80 year old manual workers. I would expect it's harder for them...

mcguire 12y ago

"So how do you stay in shape? "I have a two-story house and a very bad memory, so I’m up and down those stairs all the time. That’s my exercise." I love Betty White.

brandall10 12y ago

Why is there no mention of Frank Lloyd Wright? The man is one of the most celebrated architects in the history of the field, and he created his masterwork (Fallingwater) when he was 71. Furthermore, his output over the last 20 years of his life accounted for more than half of his lifetime output. He died while in the middle of creating the Guggenheim - simply did not stop. Interestingly enough his life arc was quite similar to Steve Jobs.

hoprocker 12y ago

Beautiful photos, fascinating interview snippets. I love compelling narratives that remind us that life isn't over at 30.