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Why Germany Is Better at Training Its Workers

192 points by zwieback 12y ago

codingbinary 12y ago
Well, $100 million of apprenticeship grants isn't gonna cut it. The money would be better spent in developing the needed infrastructure to adopt the system. Skip state wide systems and adopt a nation wide system. As for the "cost factor" for the companies...even if still at apprenticeship level, the people are working, even if it's just minor tasks in the first few months, so give them a damn salary. Here in Germany the average is about 700$/month on average, with salary increasing by about 50$ each year. Plus a decent chance to get a full time job at the same company after your apprenticeship is done. The firms won't need to establish programs. The states will have to establish schools for that, not the firms.
refurb 12y ago
Isn't one of the drawbacks to the German system that you're directed down one particular path very early in your education? In other words, by the time you're in high school, you're either in the "university path" or the "trade path"? I honestly don't know but it would be interesting to hear thoughts. Does it make it harder to switch careers later in life?
- blahedo 12y ago
  From TFA: > Skeptical Americans worry that the European model requires tracking, and it’s true, German children choose at age 10 among an academic high school, a vocational track, or something in between. But it turns out there’s a lot of opportunity for trainees to switch tracks later on. They can go back to school to specialize further or earn a master craftsman’s certificate or train as a trainer in the company’s apprenticeship program—and many do. What education reformers call “lifelong learning” is still a distant dream for most Americans. In Germany, it’s a reality.
  - ajuc 12y ago
    No such thing as European model. It's German model.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- rbehrends 12y ago
  > Isn't one of the drawbacks to the German system that you're directed down one particular path very early in your education? Yes, and it's one of the sillier parts of the German educational system. That said, recent school reforms have at least started to mitigate it a bit. The problem here is not some form of tracking as such – not everyone has the same talents – but that it happens so early (after fourth grade) and that the differences between school types are so huge. That said, these days it's at least less of a permanent decision. For example, my niece initially finished school after 10th grade ("Mittlere Reife"), then did an apprenticeship, then went back to school, working on her abitur now and will likely go to college afterwards. Depending on where you live, children may also be able to join one of the comprehensive schools and bypass the traditional system.
  - refurb 12y ago
    Thanks! I don't know that much about it so it's interesting to hear actual experiences with it.
    - eru 12y ago
      In addition, the education system is in the hands of the states in Germany. So expect some regional differences.
      - lsiebert 12y ago
        Oh there's a lot of the states having their hands on education in the United States too.
  - ma2rten 12y ago
    For example, my niece initially finished school after 10th grade ("Mittlere Reife"), then did an apprenticeship, then went back to school, working on her abitur now and will likely go to college afterwards. Yeah, but only few have the discipline to go back to school after having earned "real money" already. The international equivalent would be graduating, getting some work experience and then going back to grad school. I don't think many people manage to do that either. But in this case it's even more difficult because you have to go back to high school basically.
me2i81 12y ago
Many of the 4.8 million unfilled jobs could be filled at a higher rate of pay. Some employers seem to think they get to set the pay and magically have qualified applicants show up.
- x0x0 12y ago
  Yes, and run around bitching when they can't buy a bmw for hyundai pricing. Paying more allows you to hire workers with the skills you need; who knew? Steve Van Loan, president of Sullivan Palatek Inc. in Michigan City, said job hopping is becoming more of a problem. “They get an offer for more money across town, and they’re gone,” he said. Wages on average at his firm, which makes compressors that power drills and other tools, are rising 4% to 5% this year, compared with 2% to 3% in recent years, Mr. Van Loan said. “Everybody got so skinny back in the days when we were laying off everybody,” he said. “Now that the Midwest is getting some manufacturing back, it’s just tough to find workers” with the needed skills. [1] Or you could, gasp, train them! Though my personal guess is that a big chunk of the complaining is merely an attempt to dump training costs onto workers and local government in the form of 2-year technical colleges. Though that makes it much harder for employers to create workers with exactly the skills they need. Both the White House and governors are trying to fight a so-called skills gap among U.S. workers that many businesses blame for the slow labor-market recovery. Although plenty of Americans are looking for work, employers often lament a lack of qualified workers—particularly young people. Germany, in contrast, has a long record of finding a stronger fit between employees' skills and employers' demands. The success is reflected in a youth unemployment below 8%, the lowest of any advanced country and about half of the U.S. level. The apprenticeship system is credited as a leading driver of what many European economists call the German labor-market "miracle." [2] [1] http://online.wsj.com/articles/manufacturing-wages-rise-fast-in-some-states-amid-skills-shortages-1412802098 http://online.wsj.com/articles/manufacturing-wages-rise-fast... [2] http://online.wsj.com/articles/skills-gap-bumps-up-against-vocational-taboo-1410473392 http://online.wsj.com/articles/skills-gap-bumps-up-against-v... ps -- sorry for the wsj links, google the stuff after the final slash and you can bypass the paywall
  - michaelchisari 12y ago
deciplex 12y ago
>This issue came up at nearly every stop on the tour, we Americans asking about what costs mean for ROI and the Germans telling us to look beyond ROI to the longer-term benefits, for the company and society. Ultimately, of course, they’re right. But it’s hard to imagine many American firms, generally focused on short-term financial gain, building the kind of in-house training centers we saw at every German plant. And this is why it will never happen until there is a massive cultural shift. Americans and American firms have accepted and even embraced the tragedy of the commons in a wide variety of areas. Where most people realize a race to the bottom is something to be avoided, in America, it's something to be won.
lkrubner 12y ago
The article contains an implicit contradiction, especially in its praise of apprenticeships. Apprenticeships are typically something a person engages in during their teens or 20s, and therefore, whatever is learned during that apprenticeship, the skills can potentially be out-of-date 20 years later. Therefore, apprenticeship can not explain the absence (in Germany) of a "skills mismatch", especially if one accepts the description given in the article: "With new technology transforming work across a range of sectors, more and more businesses are struggling to find workers with the skills to man new machines and manage new processes." How would apprenticeship explain why a 40 year old German machinist is more likely to be employed than a 40 year old American machinist? There are many people, in the USA, who are in their 40s and 50s and who are unemployed. Apprenticeship, in its traditional form, would not help them. There is another way to look at this, which is to say that the German economy is really weak, but the weakness of the economy was hidden by the introduction of the euro, and the irresponsible lending that German banks engaged in, which allowed an unsustainable debt-fueled bubble to appear in Southern Europe, which created a huge market for German capital goods, which gave Germany a big export surplus. Consider the summary that Paul Krugman gives of Wolfgang Münchau description of the situation: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/german-weakness/ http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/german-weakness/ Germany came out the big winner of the euro, therefore its export industry is strong, therefore industry can still engage in long-term investments in its workers, and the labor unions in Germany are very strong, so they can force corporations to spend on training programs. All of which helps. But the roots of German success, in 2014, originate with the great financial changes of the last 25 years, and that success makes German's training programs look great. But to suggest that Germany does a good job training its workers, and therefore the Germany economy is strong, is probably wrong on at least 2 counts: 1.) it probably reverses cause and effect 2.) the German economy is not really strong
- yen223 12y ago
  I think you overestimate the rate at which skills become out-of-date. Industrial machines which are based on designs ten, twenty years ago are still in wide use.
  - 12y ago
psj 12y ago
Shopify's founder wrote an interesting article on his experience apprenticing in Germany: http://tobi.lutke.com/blogs/news/11280301-the-apprentice-programmer http://tobi.lutke.com/blogs/news/11280301-the-apprentice-pro...
- eru 12y ago
  Thanks, that was a surprisingly good read. In a similar vein, there's also the `Duales Studium', which gives vocational experience and a bachelor's degree.
  - Semaphor 12y ago
    It should be mentioned that "Duales Studium" requires very good grades as the spots are highly sought after.
autism_hurts 12y ago
It comes through in their cars. Anyone who's owned a german-built car knows.
- old-gregg 12y ago
  Having owned 3 BMWs and two VWs no, I dont. The Volkswagens were garbage, and the BMWs were fun, on the same level as Hoda, which I also enjoyed.
  - arethuza 12y ago
    Having owned 1 BMW and 5 VWs my views are the exact opposite - the BMW was by far the most expensive (and fastest) car I have ever owned but although it was new it had a lot of mechanical problems and really wasn't that comfortable. All of the VW group cars I have had have been great - haven't had a single problem with them.
- curiousDog 12y ago
  Ehh, not really. I owned a 335i and holy fuel pump issues (among others). Finally sold it and bought a Lexus. Couldn't be happier.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    Well, high quality craftsmanship and attention to detail can be present even on a product with critical defects. How? To generalize/stereotype, the routine downfall of German industry has been over-engineering. In other words, it's an amazing product, but good lord it is so complicated, no-one could ever iron out all the bugs.
tiatia 12y ago
Vote me down again: Because Germans have the idea of "Germans" and the politicians do at least to some degree try to improve the living standards for all? The same thing in China. Whatever the government in China may be, they still try to rise the standard of living for all. So it is no surprise that China considers to adopt the German apprentice system and both, China and Germany have very good public transport. "America is a business" as Brad Pitt said in one movie. Both, heavy investment into public infrastructure and something like a subsidized apprenticeship would always be seen as "interfering with the free market" in the US. Hope it ends well.
- refurb 12y ago
  Since over 60% of America's federal spending is aimed at improving people's living standards, I find your comment a bit hard to understand.
  - xnull2guest 12y ago
    Couldn't you argue that 100% of federal spending is aimed at improving people's living standards (military, police, firefighters, global economic trade relations, etc)? What specifically do you mean by the 60%?
    - baddox 12y ago
      You could also argue that it's much closer to 0%.
    - hueving 12y ago
      I suspect that's the number with military backed out. But even that isn't the right thing to do because the military is essentially a big employment program.
    - Terr_ 12y ago
      You took the words right out of my mouth. Pretty much everything can be ultimately justified by a "it improves or preserves living-standards" if enough mental leaps are made. Subsidies? Living standards through economic growth. Military? Living standards better if not conquered. Improved if we conquer or control something good. My Dictatorship? Only I can be trusted to give the people the living standards they need.
nichtich 12y ago
Like lkrubner already points out, the cause and effect is probably the opposite of what a lot of people think. We may think apprenticeship means business is treating its worker well, "investing" in them. But what did the workers really get? Here's a graph: http://www.businessinsider.com/core-unit-labor-costs-in-germany-2011-11 http://www.businessinsider.com/core-unit-labor-costs-in-germ... Seems being a German worker is not that great? I'll let Michael Pettis explain it: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/07/no_the_spanish_can_t_be_more_german_eurozone_saving http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/07/no_the_span...
- lispm 12y ago
  The labor costs were for a long time kept a bit low - together with the unions - to get rid of mass unemployment and the effects of the German reunification - 20 million people from a collapsed society added overnight. You can see the result during the financial crisis: employment was going up, not down. The workers and the unions actually got something back from the companies: job security in difficult times.
tsotha 12y ago
The problem is the German model may be impossible to emulate. There's only going to be one top-end manufacturer in a given sector. Other countries can do what Germany is doing, but they're only going to be successful if the can displace the Germans.
- eru 12y ago
  > There's only going to be one top-end manufacturer in a given sector. What do you mean by sector? Germany and Japan (and the US) get along just fine as top-end manufacturers.
  - tsotha 12y ago
    What top-end US manufacturers?
notastartup 12y ago
I watched this BBC special about a British couple experiencing the German life. It was eye opening. First, German workers are forbidden to use social media or check their phones at work. So, instead of checking your text message or facebook, you interact with other workers. Second, workers are given bonuses based on team output. No competition, rather team must work together to get better bonuses. Third, German's don't ever drown themselves with a mortgage. They just rent for life, but I hear that housing condition is excellent in Germany. Fourth, German mother's are incentivized to take care of their children. The heavy taxation discourages moms seeking jobs. This is important for child's development to have a mother around. Fifth, German kindergarten is more like spending time in nature, getting dirty in the forest, climbing trees and such. Sixth, students who aren't interested in studying can go to trade schools and take up apprenticeship like the article described. For the above reasons, Germany seems to work less hours yet have greater output. They are super efficient and practical with their time. The government also places heavy emphasis in making sure the traditional familial obligations are maintained. What an awesome country.
- Semaphor 12y ago
  Okay, way too many generalizations. 1) No. That's, as probably in the US, a case-by-case thing. None of my friends that have a degree work under such restrictions. 2) Again, case-by-case. Though I think it might be overall more common. 4) The government is working hard on making that untrue with better and better options for working parents. Plus it's not only mothers but fathers as well.
- facepalm 12y ago
  Don't believe everything you see on TV. I don't think any of those points are true. Social media use is definitely not forbidden at work as a rule. Not sure if there are companies that forbid it, and if that would be legal. But it is certainly not the norm. Don't know about the bonuses. Mortgages: many Germany buy houses, but perhaps fewer than in the UK. Renting for life is certainly common. Childcare: what does "heavy taxation" have to do with it? Taxes are the same for everyone. There is a huge push to get mothers to work earlier by providing more childcare and so on (personally I think it's a stupid idea, but it's the sentiment the common media outlets want us to have). Kindergarden: nature kindergardens exist, but they are rare. Most kindergardens have their own playground.
olakease 12y ago
The unemployment in Germany is 6% that is true. But one of every five works is a minijob, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment. With a minijob you get about 400 net/month. A minijob does not include social security which is mandatory in Germany. Take 160 euros. "Germany strong economy" is an illusion. They are putting money in Spain, Portugal and Greece, because otherwise the euro and Germany will be totally f* up
- JoeCoo7 12y ago
  Social security has nothing to do with minijobs, its mandatory and it does not depend on your job if minijob or not. Germany has by far the strongest economy in Europe and most other European countries would have problems without Germany. Germany does not depend on the Euro, it would be even stronger without it. So please get yourself informed before telling us your wisdom.
  - olakease 12y ago
    Right, minijobs has nothing to do with social security, but, since you need to pay for it, if you earn 400 - 160 ,you have 240. I'm informed. Are you? Germany needs to keep southern European countries in the euro. That is the only reason for injecting money on such corrupted governments. Don't be rude man, it is not necessary
    - sveme 12y ago
      You're not informed. You don't pay social security on a "minijob" or 450-Euro-job. ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment or the more extensive German wiki article)
      - olakease 12y ago
        But in Germany is mandatory to pay the social security, so yes, your employer will not pay your social security for you. Instead of that, you should pay it from your pocket.
perlgeek 12y ago
Another point to consider: Apprenticeships only pay off for the company if they can expect the apprentices stay with them for a few years after the education is done. And in Germany there's a big cultural bias for keeping jobs long years. My impression is that that's not the case in the USA.
- masklinn 12y ago
  Of course that works both ways, keeping a job for a long time in the US is a guarantee of no advancement unless you're a very good politics player, most skilled US workers get hosed if they stay in the same company for a long time.
lordnacho 12y ago
Here's what I find, as someone who's straddled both Anglo-Saxon and Germanic systems. - In the UK, a lot of people have degrees, but it doesn't seem to matter what the degree is in. You have English and History grads trading bonds. You used to be able to get an options trading job straight out of school (some of my old bosses joined at 16, and are now the movers and shakers in certain option markets) but not anymore. - In Switzerland (which I think is somewhat similar to Germany) not that many people have degrees, but everyone appears to be trained for their industry from a young age. My private banker is around my age, but started as a banking apprentice at age 16. He's a major asset for his international bank, and seems to know everything that folks in London know. What are the pros and cons? I suppose if you do a degree in the UK, you can find a job in many different industries. But you'll probably have a steeper learning curve, since you won't be learning about bonds until you land at the desk. In the Germanic world, you'll somewhat hit the ground running. But you might find it hard to change industries, which is a problem at the moment for finance folks (major job cuts at the two Swiss investment banks).
- hessenwolf 12y ago
  I second this comment about training for a particular role. A friend/colleague of mine (not a very Germanic combination) works in planning and controlling. The title of his masters thesis includes 'planning and controlling.' It is quite inflexible.
- pjc50 12y ago
  The UK degree system is far more about assigning people to "middle class" (with degree) or "working class" (without). When people were entering careers at 16 they were being pre-sorted at age 11 into the two types of secondary school.
- ThomPete 12y ago
  Switzerland is unique in the sense that they never bought into the idea that knowledge worker meant non-technical. When the rest of Europe spent most of their time getting people with university degrees in various humanistic and social sciences, communication etc, Switzerland kept educating technical knowledgable but still of equal length. The result of that is the Switzerland has managed to get most of the high quality production that requires special knowledge and the rest of Europe is fighting for the scrapes.
bayesianhorse 12y ago
Early "tracking", putting children in a performance-related track, is a big problem in Germany. It seriously hinders the educational success of those put in lower tracks. However, these tracks are only superficially about academic success. The reality is that it's more about ethnicity and parent's background. Turkish children are seen by many Germans as genetically less intelligent than their "pure" German peers. You won't hear that sentiment very often, and I find this attitude absolutely horrifying, but this has been shown by social studies and opinion polls. The result is that children from a foreign or poor background have far less chances to get into the academic track, and a lot of people think that's purely because of different abilities. The result is a system that struggles with social mobility, compared to other European countries. And some part of it actually has to do with early vocational training, because choosing an apprenticeship when being capable of a well-paying university degree does hold back social mobility.
- junto 12y ago
  I know a fair few teachers in Germany who work in a 'Gymnasium', which is essentially the top tier secondary school. An equivalent to an old UK grammar school concept. This is going to sound pretty harsh, but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency for children who come from Turkish backgrounds (especially boys) to be disruptive influences in class. This starts at an early age, and thus tracking tends to dump these children in Realschule and Hauptschule. This disruption in class is especially the case with female teachers, for whom the boys hold little respect for. Their culture appears to hold little respect for women in the workplace. The father's hold similar disrespecting views at parent evenings as well. The effect is reversed with male teachers. This is cultural problem on both sides and as a result the children lose out. Children that could have been successful academically are penalized both by the system's inherent failure to integrate migrants and as a direct result of their family's misogyny. Germany likes to think that it is "Multikulti" [1], but my experiences so far seem to show a multi-culturalism that is a "pretty sheen" over the top of suspicion and disrespect. London has a far greater multi-culturalism than I have seen here in Germany. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti
  - 12y ago
moconnor 12y ago
codingbinary: your account has been hellbanned for several years and most people never see your comments; looking through your comment history I can't see why.
djulius 12y ago
Germany is good at training its workers mostly because of one the last if not the last industrialized country in Europe. UK and France thought industry as dead decades ago and lost their know-how by moving plants overseas. Meanwhile Germany has kept his knowledge in-house and trains the best technician, ingenieur especially in machinenbau (mechanical engineering). A decade ago at the KIT, machinenbau graduate were most sought-after by companies than computer scientist. (btw I'm french)
- pjc50 12y ago
  I don't think this is entirely true, the UK has plenty of manufacturing. It's just "lean" or capital-intensive. Tends to be small runs of high-value products rather than mass manufacturing. What has mostly gone is the "factory floor", large businesses with lots of workers to engage in labour disputes with. You can do car manufacturing in the UK so long as senior management culture isn't British or it's a tiny luxury car company. But British Leyland are as dead as old Detroit.
  - arethuza 12y ago
    The UK manufactures a lot of stuff - manufacturing output in the UK doubled from 1958 and 2007 - it's just that we don't have many people employed in manufacturing anymore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_Kin...
goshx 12y ago
Think YC for people instead of companies. Does it sound like a crazy idea?
musername 12y ago
In practice though, aprentices are often seen as cheap labour and are not at all trained well, if the madter to the aprentice lacks time or is a drunkard or what have you. Especially in the simpler of proffesions, I fail to grasp the difference to the british system. Surely you need and will receive training of some form as well if you start a job. Do the school hours make the difference here? I am not convinved, given a butcher with already 10 years of school experience will be taught and tested for cheap stuff like percentage calculation. OTH you can become sysadmin apprentice and won't need a uni-degree, which is nice i suppose, as you get certified to know the essentials.
- k__ 12y ago
  THIS! I habe never heared anything good about the "Berufsschule" so I decided to get a degree and work parttime as dev to get good theoretical and practical education here in germany.
lnanek2 12y ago
It isn't just apprentices, they have two different types of colleges. One is primarily about job training, the other is what we have in the US. Yes, there are a few minor technical schools in the US, but it is nothing like Germany.
millermp12 12y ago
Save yourself the read. Short answer is: because they're German.

192 points by zwieback 12y ago

Well, $100 million of apprenticeship grants isn't gonna cut it. The money would be better spent in developing the needed infrastructure to adopt the system. Skip state wide systems and adopt a nation wide system. As for the "cost factor" for the companies...even if still at apprenticeship level, the people are working, even if it's just minor tasks in the first few months, so give them a damn salary. Here in Germany the average is about 700$/month on average, with salary increasing by about 50$ each year. Plus a decent chance to get a full time job at the same company after your apprenticeship is done. The firms won't need to establish programs. The states will have to establish schools for that, not the firms.

refurb 12y ago

Isn't one of the drawbacks to the German system that you're directed down one particular path very early in your education? In other words, by the time you're in high school, you're either in the "university path" or the "trade path"? I honestly don't know but it would be interesting to hear thoughts. Does it make it harder to switch careers later in life?

blahedo 12y ago
From TFA: > Skeptical Americans worry that the European model requires tracking, and it’s true, German children choose at age 10 among an academic high school, a vocational track, or something in between. But it turns out there’s a lot of opportunity for trainees to switch tracks later on. They can go back to school to specialize further or earn a master craftsman’s certificate or train as a trainer in the company’s apprenticeship program—and many do. What education reformers call “lifelong learning” is still a distant dream for most Americans. In Germany, it’s a reality.
- ajuc 12y ago
  No such thing as European model. It's German model.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
rbehrends 12y ago
> Isn't one of the drawbacks to the German system that you're directed down one particular path very early in your education? Yes, and it's one of the sillier parts of the German educational system. That said, recent school reforms have at least started to mitigate it a bit. The problem here is not some form of tracking as such – not everyone has the same talents – but that it happens so early (after fourth grade) and that the differences between school types are so huge. That said, these days it's at least less of a permanent decision. For example, my niece initially finished school after 10th grade ("Mittlere Reife"), then did an apprenticeship, then went back to school, working on her abitur now and will likely go to college afterwards. Depending on where you live, children may also be able to join one of the comprehensive schools and bypass the traditional system.
- refurb 12y ago
  Thanks! I don't know that much about it so it's interesting to hear actual experiences with it.
  - eru 12y ago
    In addition, the education system is in the hands of the states in Germany. So expect some regional differences.
    - lsiebert 12y ago
      Oh there's a lot of the states having their hands on education in the United States too.
- ma2rten 12y ago
  For example, my niece initially finished school after 10th grade ("Mittlere Reife"), then did an apprenticeship, then went back to school, working on her abitur now and will likely go to college afterwards. Yeah, but only few have the discipline to go back to school after having earned "real money" already. The international equivalent would be graduating, getting some work experience and then going back to grad school. I don't think many people manage to do that either. But in this case it's even more difficult because you have to go back to high school basically.

me2i81 12y ago

Many of the 4.8 million unfilled jobs could be filled at a higher rate of pay. Some employers seem to think they get to set the pay and magically have qualified applicants show up.

x0x0 12y ago
Yes, and run around bitching when they can't buy a bmw for hyundai pricing. Paying more allows you to hire workers with the skills you need; who knew? Steve Van Loan, president of Sullivan Palatek Inc. in Michigan City, said job hopping is becoming more of a problem. “They get an offer for more money across town, and they’re gone,” he said. Wages on average at his firm, which makes compressors that power drills and other tools, are rising 4% to 5% this year, compared with 2% to 3% in recent years, Mr. Van Loan said. “Everybody got so skinny back in the days when we were laying off everybody,” he said. “Now that the Midwest is getting some manufacturing back, it’s just tough to find workers” with the needed skills. [1] Or you could, gasp, train them! Though my personal guess is that a big chunk of the complaining is merely an attempt to dump training costs onto workers and local government in the form of 2-year technical colleges. Though that makes it much harder for employers to create workers with exactly the skills they need. Both the White House and governors are trying to fight a so-called skills gap among U.S. workers that many businesses blame for the slow labor-market recovery. Although plenty of Americans are looking for work, employers often lament a lack of qualified workers—particularly young people. Germany, in contrast, has a long record of finding a stronger fit between employees' skills and employers' demands. The success is reflected in a youth unemployment below 8%, the lowest of any advanced country and about half of the U.S. level. The apprenticeship system is credited as a leading driver of what many European economists call the German labor-market "miracle." [2] [1] http://online.wsj.com/articles/manufacturing-wages-rise-fast-in-some-states-amid-skills-shortages-1412802098 http://online.wsj.com/articles/manufacturing-wages-rise-fast... [2] http://online.wsj.com/articles/skills-gap-bumps-up-against-vocational-taboo-1410473392 http://online.wsj.com/articles/skills-gap-bumps-up-against-v... ps -- sorry for the wsj links, google the stuff after the final slash and you can bypass the paywall
- michaelchisari 12y ago

deciplex 12y ago

>This issue came up at nearly every stop on the tour, we Americans asking about what costs mean for ROI and the Germans telling us to look beyond ROI to the longer-term benefits, for the company and society. Ultimately, of course, they’re right. But it’s hard to imagine many American firms, generally focused on short-term financial gain, building the kind of in-house training centers we saw at every German plant. And this is why it will never happen until there is a massive cultural shift. Americans and American firms have accepted and even embraced the tragedy of the commons in a wide variety of areas. Where most people realize a race to the bottom is something to be avoided, in America, it's something to be won.

lkrubner 12y ago

The article contains an implicit contradiction, especially in its praise of apprenticeships. Apprenticeships are typically something a person engages in during their teens or 20s, and therefore, whatever is learned during that apprenticeship, the skills can potentially be out-of-date 20 years later. Therefore, apprenticeship can not explain the absence (in Germany) of a "skills mismatch", especially if one accepts the description given in the article: "With new technology transforming work across a range of sectors, more and more businesses are struggling to find workers with the skills to man new machines and manage new processes." How would apprenticeship explain why a 40 year old German machinist is more likely to be employed than a 40 year old American machinist? There are many people, in the USA, who are in their 40s and 50s and who are unemployed. Apprenticeship, in its traditional form, would not help them. There is another way to look at this, which is to say that the German economy is really weak, but the weakness of the economy was hidden by the introduction of the euro, and the irresponsible lending that German banks engaged in, which allowed an unsustainable debt-fueled bubble to appear in Southern Europe, which created a huge market for German capital goods, which gave Germany a big export surplus. Consider the summary that Paul Krugman gives of Wolfgang Münchau description of the situation: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/german-weakness/ http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/german-weakness/ Germany came out the big winner of the euro, therefore its export industry is strong, therefore industry can still engage in long-term investments in its workers, and the labor unions in Germany are very strong, so they can force corporations to spend on training programs. All of which helps. But the roots of German success, in 2014, originate with the great financial changes of the last 25 years, and that success makes German's training programs look great. But to suggest that Germany does a good job training its workers, and therefore the Germany economy is strong, is probably wrong on at least 2 counts: 1.) it probably reverses cause and effect 2.) the German economy is not really strong

yen223 12y ago
I think you overestimate the rate at which skills become out-of-date. Industrial machines which are based on designs ten, twenty years ago are still in wide use.
- 12y ago

psj 12y ago

Shopify's founder wrote an interesting article on his experience apprenticing in Germany: http://tobi.lutke.com/blogs/news/11280301-the-apprentice-programmer http://tobi.lutke.com/blogs/news/11280301-the-apprentice-pro...

eru 12y ago
Thanks, that was a surprisingly good read. In a similar vein, there's also the `Duales Studium', which gives vocational experience and a bachelor's degree.
- Semaphor 12y ago
  It should be mentioned that "Duales Studium" requires very good grades as the spots are highly sought after.

autism_hurts 12y ago

It comes through in their cars. Anyone who's owned a german-built car knows.

old-gregg 12y ago
Having owned 3 BMWs and two VWs no, I dont. The Volkswagens were garbage, and the BMWs were fun, on the same level as Hoda, which I also enjoyed.
- arethuza 12y ago
  Having owned 1 BMW and 5 VWs my views are the exact opposite - the BMW was by far the most expensive (and fastest) car I have ever owned but although it was new it had a lot of mechanical problems and really wasn't that comfortable. All of the VW group cars I have had have been great - haven't had a single problem with them.
curiousDog 12y ago
Ehh, not really. I owned a 335i and holy fuel pump issues (among others). Finally sold it and bought a Lexus. Couldn't be happier.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Well, high quality craftsmanship and attention to detail can be present even on a product with critical defects. How? To generalize/stereotype, the routine downfall of German industry has been over-engineering. In other words, it's an amazing product, but good lord it is so complicated, no-one could ever iron out all the bugs.

tiatia 12y ago

Vote me down again: Because Germans have the idea of "Germans" and the politicians do at least to some degree try to improve the living standards for all? The same thing in China. Whatever the government in China may be, they still try to rise the standard of living for all. So it is no surprise that China considers to adopt the German apprentice system and both, China and Germany have very good public transport. "America is a business" as Brad Pitt said in one movie. Both, heavy investment into public infrastructure and something like a subsidized apprenticeship would always be seen as "interfering with the free market" in the US. Hope it ends well.

refurb 12y ago
Since over 60% of America's federal spending is aimed at improving people's living standards, I find your comment a bit hard to understand.
- xnull2guest 12y ago
  Couldn't you argue that 100% of federal spending is aimed at improving people's living standards (military, police, firefighters, global economic trade relations, etc)? What specifically do you mean by the 60%?
  - baddox 12y ago
    You could also argue that it's much closer to 0%.
  - hueving 12y ago
    I suspect that's the number with military backed out. But even that isn't the right thing to do because the military is essentially a big employment program.
  - Terr_ 12y ago
    You took the words right out of my mouth. Pretty much everything can be ultimately justified by a "it improves or preserves living-standards" if enough mental leaps are made. Subsidies? Living standards through economic growth. Military? Living standards better if not conquered. Improved if we conquer or control something good. My Dictatorship? Only I can be trusted to give the people the living standards they need.

nichtich 12y ago

Like lkrubner already points out, the cause and effect is probably the opposite of what a lot of people think. We may think apprenticeship means business is treating its worker well, "investing" in them. But what did the workers really get? Here's a graph: http://www.businessinsider.com/core-unit-labor-costs-in-germany-2011-11 http://www.businessinsider.com/core-unit-labor-costs-in-germ... Seems being a German worker is not that great? I'll let Michael Pettis explain it: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/07/no_the_spanish_can_t_be_more_german_eurozone_saving http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/07/no_the_span...

lispm 12y ago
The labor costs were for a long time kept a bit low - together with the unions - to get rid of mass unemployment and the effects of the German reunification - 20 million people from a collapsed society added overnight. You can see the result during the financial crisis: employment was going up, not down. The workers and the unions actually got something back from the companies: job security in difficult times.

tsotha 12y ago

The problem is the German model may be impossible to emulate. There's only going to be one top-end manufacturer in a given sector. Other countries can do what Germany is doing, but they're only going to be successful if the can displace the Germans.

eru 12y ago
> There's only going to be one top-end manufacturer in a given sector. What do you mean by sector? Germany and Japan (and the US) get along just fine as top-end manufacturers.
- tsotha 12y ago
  What top-end US manufacturers?

notastartup 12y ago

I watched this BBC special about a British couple experiencing the German life. It was eye opening. First, German workers are forbidden to use social media or check their phones at work. So, instead of checking your text message or facebook, you interact with other workers. Second, workers are given bonuses based on team output. No competition, rather team must work together to get better bonuses. Third, German's don't ever drown themselves with a mortgage. They just rent for life, but I hear that housing condition is excellent in Germany. Fourth, German mother's are incentivized to take care of their children. The heavy taxation discourages moms seeking jobs. This is important for child's development to have a mother around. Fifth, German kindergarten is more like spending time in nature, getting dirty in the forest, climbing trees and such. Sixth, students who aren't interested in studying can go to trade schools and take up apprenticeship like the article described. For the above reasons, Germany seems to work less hours yet have greater output. They are super efficient and practical with their time. The government also places heavy emphasis in making sure the traditional familial obligations are maintained. What an awesome country.

Semaphor 12y ago
Okay, way too many generalizations. 1) No. That's, as probably in the US, a case-by-case thing. None of my friends that have a degree work under such restrictions. 2) Again, case-by-case. Though I think it might be overall more common. 4) The government is working hard on making that untrue with better and better options for working parents. Plus it's not only mothers but fathers as well.
facepalm 12y ago
Don't believe everything you see on TV. I don't think any of those points are true. Social media use is definitely not forbidden at work as a rule. Not sure if there are companies that forbid it, and if that would be legal. But it is certainly not the norm. Don't know about the bonuses. Mortgages: many Germany buy houses, but perhaps fewer than in the UK. Renting for life is certainly common. Childcare: what does "heavy taxation" have to do with it? Taxes are the same for everyone. There is a huge push to get mothers to work earlier by providing more childcare and so on (personally I think it's a stupid idea, but it's the sentiment the common media outlets want us to have). Kindergarden: nature kindergardens exist, but they are rare. Most kindergardens have their own playground.

olakease 12y ago

The unemployment in Germany is 6% that is true. But one of every five works is a minijob, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment. With a minijob you get about 400 net/month. A minijob does not include social security which is mandatory in Germany. Take 160 euros. "Germany strong economy" is an illusion. They are putting money in Spain, Portugal and Greece, because otherwise the euro and Germany will be totally f* up

JoeCoo7 12y ago
Social security has nothing to do with minijobs, its mandatory and it does not depend on your job if minijob or not. Germany has by far the strongest economy in Europe and most other European countries would have problems without Germany. Germany does not depend on the Euro, it would be even stronger without it. So please get yourself informed before telling us your wisdom.
- olakease 12y ago
  Right, minijobs has nothing to do with social security, but, since you need to pay for it, if you earn 400 - 160 ,you have 240. I'm informed. Are you? Germany needs to keep southern European countries in the euro. That is the only reason for injecting money on such corrupted governments. Don't be rude man, it is not necessary
  - sveme 12y ago
    You're not informed. You don't pay social security on a "minijob" or 450-Euro-job. ( see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment or the more extensive German wiki article)
    - olakease 12y ago
      But in Germany is mandatory to pay the social security, so yes, your employer will not pay your social security for you. Instead of that, you should pay it from your pocket.

perlgeek 12y ago

Another point to consider: Apprenticeships only pay off for the company if they can expect the apprentices stay with them for a few years after the education is done. And in Germany there's a big cultural bias for keeping jobs long years. My impression is that that's not the case in the USA.

masklinn 12y ago
Of course that works both ways, keeping a job for a long time in the US is a guarantee of no advancement unless you're a very good politics player, most skilled US workers get hosed if they stay in the same company for a long time.

lordnacho 12y ago

Here's what I find, as someone who's straddled both Anglo-Saxon and Germanic systems. - In the UK, a lot of people have degrees, but it doesn't seem to matter what the degree is in. You have English and History grads trading bonds. You used to be able to get an options trading job straight out of school (some of my old bosses joined at 16, and are now the movers and shakers in certain option markets) but not anymore. - In Switzerland (which I think is somewhat similar to Germany) not that many people have degrees, but everyone appears to be trained for their industry from a young age. My private banker is around my age, but started as a banking apprentice at age 16. He's a major asset for his international bank, and seems to know everything that folks in London know. What are the pros and cons? I suppose if you do a degree in the UK, you can find a job in many different industries. But you'll probably have a steeper learning curve, since you won't be learning about bonds until you land at the desk. In the Germanic world, you'll somewhat hit the ground running. But you might find it hard to change industries, which is a problem at the moment for finance folks (major job cuts at the two Swiss investment banks).

hessenwolf 12y ago
I second this comment about training for a particular role. A friend/colleague of mine (not a very Germanic combination) works in planning and controlling. The title of his masters thesis includes 'planning and controlling.' It is quite inflexible.
pjc50 12y ago
The UK degree system is far more about assigning people to "middle class" (with degree) or "working class" (without). When people were entering careers at 16 they were being pre-sorted at age 11 into the two types of secondary school.
ThomPete 12y ago
Switzerland is unique in the sense that they never bought into the idea that knowledge worker meant non-technical. When the rest of Europe spent most of their time getting people with university degrees in various humanistic and social sciences, communication etc, Switzerland kept educating technical knowledgable but still of equal length. The result of that is the Switzerland has managed to get most of the high quality production that requires special knowledge and the rest of Europe is fighting for the scrapes.

bayesianhorse 12y ago

Early "tracking", putting children in a performance-related track, is a big problem in Germany. It seriously hinders the educational success of those put in lower tracks. However, these tracks are only superficially about academic success. The reality is that it's more about ethnicity and parent's background. Turkish children are seen by many Germans as genetically less intelligent than their "pure" German peers. You won't hear that sentiment very often, and I find this attitude absolutely horrifying, but this has been shown by social studies and opinion polls. The result is that children from a foreign or poor background have far less chances to get into the academic track, and a lot of people think that's purely because of different abilities. The result is a system that struggles with social mobility, compared to other European countries. And some part of it actually has to do with early vocational training, because choosing an apprenticeship when being capable of a well-paying university degree does hold back social mobility.

junto 12y ago
I know a fair few teachers in Germany who work in a 'Gymnasium', which is essentially the top tier secondary school. An equivalent to an old UK grammar school concept. This is going to sound pretty harsh, but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong tendency for children who come from Turkish backgrounds (especially boys) to be disruptive influences in class. This starts at an early age, and thus tracking tends to dump these children in Realschule and Hauptschule. This disruption in class is especially the case with female teachers, for whom the boys hold little respect for. Their culture appears to hold little respect for women in the workplace. The father's hold similar disrespecting views at parent evenings as well. The effect is reversed with male teachers. This is cultural problem on both sides and as a result the children lose out. Children that could have been successful academically are penalized both by the system's inherent failure to integrate migrants and as a direct result of their family's misogyny. Germany likes to think that it is "Multikulti" [1], but my experiences so far seem to show a multi-culturalism that is a "pretty sheen" over the top of suspicion and disrespect. London has a far greater multi-culturalism than I have seen here in Germany. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti
- 12y ago

moconnor 12y ago

codingbinary: your account has been hellbanned for several years and most people never see your comments; looking through your comment history I can't see why.

djulius 12y ago

Germany is good at training its workers mostly because of one the last if not the last industrialized country in Europe. UK and France thought industry as dead decades ago and lost their know-how by moving plants overseas. Meanwhile Germany has kept his knowledge in-house and trains the best technician, ingenieur especially in machinenbau (mechanical engineering). A decade ago at the KIT, machinenbau graduate were most sought-after by companies than computer scientist. (btw I'm french)

pjc50 12y ago
I don't think this is entirely true, the UK has plenty of manufacturing. It's just "lean" or capital-intensive. Tends to be small runs of high-value products rather than mass manufacturing. What has mostly gone is the "factory floor", large businesses with lots of workers to engage in labour disputes with. You can do car manufacturing in the UK so long as senior management culture isn't British or it's a tiny luxury car company. But British Leyland are as dead as old Detroit.
- arethuza 12y ago
  The UK manufactures a lot of stuff - manufacturing output in the UK doubled from 1958 and 2007 - it's just that we don't have many people employed in manufacturing anymore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_Kingdom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_Kin...

goshx 12y ago

Think YC for people instead of companies. Does it sound like a crazy idea?

musername 12y ago

In practice though, aprentices are often seen as cheap labour and are not at all trained well, if the madter to the aprentice lacks time or is a drunkard or what have you. Especially in the simpler of proffesions, I fail to grasp the difference to the british system. Surely you need and will receive training of some form as well if you start a job. Do the school hours make the difference here? I am not convinved, given a butcher with already 10 years of school experience will be taught and tested for cheap stuff like percentage calculation. OTH you can become sysadmin apprentice and won't need a uni-degree, which is nice i suppose, as you get certified to know the essentials.

k__ 12y ago
THIS! I habe never heared anything good about the "Berufsschule" so I decided to get a degree and work parttime as dev to get good theoretical and practical education here in germany.

lnanek2 12y ago

It isn't just apprentices, they have two different types of colleges. One is primarily about job training, the other is what we have in the US. Yes, there are a few minor technical schools in the US, but it is nothing like Germany.

millermp12 12y ago

Save yourself the read. Short answer is: because they're German.