24 ms·

Eve Development Blog, from Light Table developers

83 points by dahjelle 12y ago

duaneb 12y ago
God, that's confusing. I thought this was the EVE development blog, i.e. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/ http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/. Eve is, frankly, a terrible name for a tool. It sounds like a brand name and gives ZERO indication as to its utility. At the very least, the post (edit: post title) could give some indication as to what the hell Eve is and why I should care—it looks like a spreadsheet meets a repl.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- slowmovintarget 12y ago
  As an Eve On-Line player: same here. Spreadsheet with a REPL... might help crunch market orders.
- dang 12y ago
  We restored the submitter's title which made the Light Table connection explicit.
  - duaneb 12y ago
    Thanks, dang!
  - _halgari 12y ago
    Sadly, even then I thought the title was about how CCP (makers of EVE Online) were using LightTable in development...
    - dang 12y ago
      That is sad. I doubt there's much we can do for you.
divs1210 12y ago
Nice thought, nice venture. I hope it leads to unexplored territory. Good to see constant tests with potential users, and no fear of making major changes.
lbotos 12y ago
What's going on with Light Table? Anyone use it? Is it "done"? Python? JS? It was hot for a while and I haven't heard anything in a bit.
- state 12y ago
  I just ditched it. It's so close to being good, but there are a ton of small bugs that can add up to being quite frustrating. It's no where near the level of a tool that will be used as much as an editor. And now it looks like they have found something else more interesting to work on anyway.
- zindlerb 12y ago
  I don't know about python, but Javascript works great. The killer app for me is using the editor as an integrated repl for JS.
  - skizm 12y ago
    Doesn't pretty much any browser have this? If you're doing JS dev, chances are you have a browser open.
    - zindlerb 12y ago
      True. The appeal for me is directly manipulating the code, and getting feedback. The browser console is laid out in a call response model, and you are unable to edit previous entries. You have to retype them in, or hit up on the keyboard to find the previously entered function. It is nicer to just manipulate my code and evaluate it right in the editor. It isn't a huge difference, but it has been helpful for me.
- cbp 12y ago
  It's been opensourced which as far as I can tell, means that the developers wash their hands now and leave to move on to new, easier and more fun things than writing a decent text editor. They delivered half of what they promised 1 year overdue. But I guess if you want something done now you're free to write it yourself ;)
ericHosick 12y ago
>Passing cursors quickly became tedious when trying to change code. If a function suddenly needed access to IO the cursor had to be passed down through every function above it in the callstack. This is the function-calling train issue and what happens if you try to make a sort of quasi homoiconic language ("Hierarchical organisation of data complects the data itself with the common access paths.") and attempt a push-pull approach to programming (you push the data down into the hierarchy) with traditional data scoping through parameters. The bad is not the hierarchical organization of data. That is the correct direction. The bad is trying to use a traditional scoping approach to what is effectively a homoiconic type language. Homoiconic type systems need a different scoping approach.
- DennisP 12y ago
  So how should it be done?
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    Dynamic scoping?
  - seabee 12y ago
    In my favourite homoiconic language, Racket (also in lisps, so it's surprising that OP didn't mention it) you'd typically accomplish it with parameterised dynamic binding. Think global variables, except the lifetime of the new value is limited to a body of code. A concrete example is a function that writes something to stdout. If you want to output to a file instead, parameterise the function call by setting current-output-port to the handle of your file.
  - ericHosick 12y ago
    The way we do scoping now is to rely on the programming language which is basically the stack. But we can implement our own scoping mechanisms based on the domain we are developing a program in. For example, Eve mentioned that they were looking at a sort of "Excel" spreadsheet type visual language. The scoping mechanism of spreadsheets are a sheet with row/column. So, I would create objects that are able to quickly pull from a row/column and push into a row/column. For example, somewhere in their hierarchy they had an algorithm that required access to a cursor. Since it is a spreadsheet we can have our global active spreadsheet which, somewhere, contains the cursor. We know it is there because we put it there. Somewhere deep in the bowels of the data hierarchy we have this line of code to get a cursor: var cursorCurrent = global.curSpread[34,65]; because our scoping mechanism is based on an excel spreadsheet and not the one "forced" on us by the programming language: usually a stack. There is no need to push that current cursor down the function calling train and, in the end, it is probably faster because we are doing a simple cell lookup.
minikomi 12y ago
If the blog maintainer is about - can you allow user zooming on mobile? The screenshots are very tricky to look at and are important to the context of this blog I think.
- bkurtz13 12y ago
  In that same vein, the dotted pattern in background makes it subtly harder to read the text
- jamii 12y ago
  You can click though on the images.
- gone35 12y ago
  Use this bookmarklet to un-cripple the page (from [1]): javascript:document.querySelector('meta[name=viewport]') .setAttribute('content',' width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=10.0, user-scalable=1 '); Shame on the author to force users to retort to hacks like this, by the way. "B-but you can click on the images!" is not an answer, damn it [2]. Pinch-and-zoom is arguably the premier feature/innovation of the post-iOS era, for you geniuses to disable it for whatever UI/UX cargo-culting fad is going through your head. Seriously. Just stop [3]. [1] http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/28391/how-can-i-force-pinch-to-zoom-on-some-websites http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/28391/how-can-i-for... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468745 [3] http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
  - ibdknox 12y ago
    What an aggressive response. :/ Thanks for the indirect pointer on how to correct the issue though. If you hard refresh you can zoom now.
    - gone35 12y ago
      Well, expectancy violation/mismatch is a reliable stressor down to the mesolimbic-corticostriatal level[1], so maybe that's that. In any case, thank you for re-enabling it. I'm sure many future readers would thank you too. [1] See for instance Box 2 in Proulx et al. 2012 (http://www.michaelinzlicht.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/04/Proulx-Inzlicht-Harmon-Jones-2012.pdf http://www.michaelinzlicht.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/downloa...).
dusklight 12y ago
Eve, Aurora, Light Table, these names all share the similar property in that they are difficult to google because they are common words. We've already gone through this once with go, can we please get a name that is going to be easy to search for?

83 points by dahjelle 12y ago

God, that's confusing. I thought this was the EVE development blog, i.e. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/ http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/. Eve is, frankly, a terrible name for a tool. It sounds like a brand name and gives ZERO indication as to its utility. At the very least, the post (edit: post title) could give some indication as to what the hell Eve is and why I should care—it looks like a spreadsheet meets a repl.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
slowmovintarget 12y ago
As an Eve On-Line player: same here. Spreadsheet with a REPL... might help crunch market orders.
dang 12y ago
We restored the submitter's title which made the Light Table connection explicit.
- duaneb 12y ago
  Thanks, dang!
- _halgari 12y ago
  Sadly, even then I thought the title was about how CCP (makers of EVE Online) were using LightTable in development...
  - dang 12y ago
    That is sad. I doubt there's much we can do for you.

divs1210 12y ago

Nice thought, nice venture. I hope it leads to unexplored territory. Good to see constant tests with potential users, and no fear of making major changes.

lbotos 12y ago

What's going on with Light Table? Anyone use it? Is it "done"? Python? JS? It was hot for a while and I haven't heard anything in a bit.

state 12y ago
I just ditched it. It's so close to being good, but there are a ton of small bugs that can add up to being quite frustrating. It's no where near the level of a tool that will be used as much as an editor. And now it looks like they have found something else more interesting to work on anyway.
zindlerb 12y ago
I don't know about python, but Javascript works great. The killer app for me is using the editor as an integrated repl for JS.
- skizm 12y ago
  Doesn't pretty much any browser have this? If you're doing JS dev, chances are you have a browser open.
  - zindlerb 12y ago
    True. The appeal for me is directly manipulating the code, and getting feedback. The browser console is laid out in a call response model, and you are unable to edit previous entries. You have to retype them in, or hit up on the keyboard to find the previously entered function. It is nicer to just manipulate my code and evaluate it right in the editor. It isn't a huge difference, but it has been helpful for me.
cbp 12y ago
It's been opensourced which as far as I can tell, means that the developers wash their hands now and leave to move on to new, easier and more fun things than writing a decent text editor. They delivered half of what they promised 1 year overdue. But I guess if you want something done now you're free to write it yourself ;)

ericHosick 12y ago

>Passing cursors quickly became tedious when trying to change code. If a function suddenly needed access to IO the cursor had to be passed down through every function above it in the callstack. This is the function-calling train issue and what happens if you try to make a sort of quasi homoiconic language ("Hierarchical organisation of data complects the data itself with the common access paths.") and attempt a push-pull approach to programming (you push the data down into the hierarchy) with traditional data scoping through parameters. The bad is not the hierarchical organization of data. That is the correct direction. The bad is trying to use a traditional scoping approach to what is effectively a homoiconic type language. Homoiconic type systems need a different scoping approach.

DennisP 12y ago
So how should it be done?
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  Dynamic scoping?
- seabee 12y ago
  In my favourite homoiconic language, Racket (also in lisps, so it's surprising that OP didn't mention it) you'd typically accomplish it with parameterised dynamic binding. Think global variables, except the lifetime of the new value is limited to a body of code. A concrete example is a function that writes something to stdout. If you want to output to a file instead, parameterise the function call by setting current-output-port to the handle of your file.
- ericHosick 12y ago
  The way we do scoping now is to rely on the programming language which is basically the stack. But we can implement our own scoping mechanisms based on the domain we are developing a program in. For example, Eve mentioned that they were looking at a sort of "Excel" spreadsheet type visual language. The scoping mechanism of spreadsheets are a sheet with row/column. So, I would create objects that are able to quickly pull from a row/column and push into a row/column. For example, somewhere in their hierarchy they had an algorithm that required access to a cursor. Since it is a spreadsheet we can have our global active spreadsheet which, somewhere, contains the cursor. We know it is there because we put it there. Somewhere deep in the bowels of the data hierarchy we have this line of code to get a cursor: var cursorCurrent = global.curSpread[34,65]; because our scoping mechanism is based on an excel spreadsheet and not the one "forced" on us by the programming language: usually a stack. There is no need to push that current cursor down the function calling train and, in the end, it is probably faster because we are doing a simple cell lookup.

minikomi 12y ago

If the blog maintainer is about - can you allow user zooming on mobile? The screenshots are very tricky to look at and are important to the context of this blog I think.

bkurtz13 12y ago
In that same vein, the dotted pattern in background makes it subtly harder to read the text
jamii 12y ago
You can click though on the images.
gone35 12y ago
Use this bookmarklet to un-cripple the page (from [1]): javascript:document.querySelector('meta[name=viewport]') .setAttribute('content',' width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=10.0, user-scalable=1 '); Shame on the author to force users to retort to hacks like this, by the way. "B-but you can click on the images!" is not an answer, damn it [2]. Pinch-and-zoom is arguably the premier feature/innovation of the post-iOS era, for you geniuses to disable it for whatever UI/UX cargo-culting fad is going through your head. Seriously. Just stop [3]. [1] http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/28391/how-can-i-force-pinch-to-zoom-on-some-websites http://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/28391/how-can-i-for... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468745 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468745 [3] http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
- ibdknox 12y ago
  What an aggressive response. :/ Thanks for the indirect pointer on how to correct the issue though. If you hard refresh you can zoom now.
  - gone35 12y ago
    Well, expectancy violation/mismatch is a reliable stressor down to the mesolimbic-corticostriatal level[1], so maybe that's that. In any case, thank you for re-enabling it. I'm sure many future readers would thank you too. [1] See for instance Box 2 in Proulx et al. 2012 (http://www.michaelinzlicht.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2012/04/Proulx-Inzlicht-Harmon-Jones-2012.pdf http://www.michaelinzlicht.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/downloa...).

dusklight 12y ago

Eve, Aurora, Light Table, these names all share the similar property in that they are difficult to google because they are common words. We've already gone through this once with go, can we please get a name that is going to be easy to search for?