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Nick Stinemates @ Docker here. I run BD/Tech Alliances. A lot of blood and sweat went in to this one! I'm here to answer any questions you may have about the an

Nick Stinemates @ Docker here. I run BD/Tech Alliances. A lot of blood and sweat went in to this one! I'm here to answer any questions you may have about the announcement, the details, or anything about Docker.

odonnellryan 12y ago
Will the MS bits be open-source? Will it be in Go?
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  > Will the MS bits be open-source? The MS-bits they're contributing to the Docker project will be contributed in the same way everyone does - under the Apache 2 License, in the open, etc. > Will it be in Go? It will be contributed in the main docker repo - github.com/docker/docker As a result, it will be a community/maintainer decision what language it's written in, but obviously we're heavily biased toward Go.
  - tmzt 12y ago
    Can you comment at this point about what containerization on Windows will look like. A tree of processes, a lighter, file-based HyperV, or something else? What effect will this have on the filesystem layout? Will native ACLs be supported or mapping to Unix permissions? Has a timeline for initial code in github been announced?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - nickstinemates 12y ago
      Disclaimer: I am not speaking for Microsoft here, but my understanding of the facts that have been released. > Can you comment at this point about what containerization on Windows will look like. I cannot directly. > A tree of processes, a lighter, file-based HyperV, or something else? HyperV integration will exist (and is currently being worked on in the open for Docker) but the technology is fundamental to Windows, like hyper-v. As far as I am aware, not a hyper-v decendant. > What effect will this have on the filesystem layout? Each container will have its own. > Will native ACLs be supported or mapping to Unix permissions? Can't comment on these details, sorry! > Has a timeline for initial code in github been announced? It has not.
    - johngossman 12y ago
      John Gossman from Microsoft here. Windows Server containers use the approach sometimes called Operating System Virtualization, just like Linux containers, Jails, etc.. The Wikipedia article is a pretty good summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system%E2%80%93level_virtualization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system%E2%80%93level_... They are process based. They do not depend on HyperV and can run on Windows Server on bare metal or inside any hypervisor or cloud.
      - benjarrell 12y ago
        Can you compare this to AppV?
        lstamour 12y ago
        I'll take a stab at it (no relation to Microsoft). As described in the following link, App-V does streaming of client app code from a server, appears very client-oriented. The technology behind it might not be, though: http://blogs.technet.com/b/gladiatormsft/archive/2013/11/05/app-v-on-named-kernel-object-virtualization-a-k-a-the-vobjects-subsystem.aspx http://blogs.technet.com/b/gladiatormsft/archive/2013/11/05/... (describes the registry key with exceptions to the underlying namespacing of handles, I think?) This appears to be called Named Kernel Object Virtualization (a.k.a. the VObjects Subsystem) from the title of the post. But again, client-side oriented. I expect Docker integration to be server-side oriented code for this. Oh and if anyone's saying Microsoft's late to the party, there have been similar attempts on Windows platforms since at least 2006 using such techniques: https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/vee06/full_papers/p24-yu.pdf https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/vee06/full_papers/p24-y...
  - johngossman 12y ago
    Nick is right. Our default answer will be to use Go to be consistent with the rest of the Docker project. But we'll use whatever language is right for that part of the project.
    - Rapzid 12y ago
      Which is a .Net language, just saying.
      - BuckRogers 12y ago
        Of course. It will be in C#. Far too much work to be done on Go's Window's support to use it, and no advantage to do so.
        Rapzid 12y ago
        Exactly. I'm a firm believer that if you're doing orchestration/automation on Windows and you're not using .Net based technologies, you'll wish you were eventually(coming from a HEAVY Chef on Windows user). Plus, there's Powershell modules to consider, and Powershell is .Net based.. And just the general ecosystem to consider, especially Azure itself. And etc, and etc. Though some F# wouldn't be a bad choice, I suspect the prevalence of C# will win out. Just makes this "partnership" a bit more, complicated? Or at least, not what it seems on the surface. If the containers aren't compatible between Linux and Windows, and the tooling will end up .Net in the long run(which I firmly believe), then the only common ground will be some semblance of API compatibility?
eik3_de 12y ago
are you working with Apple to bring native docker to that platfrom?
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  I can't comment on unannounced partnership or details, sorry!
- enos_feedler 12y ago
  I really hope the Microsoft partnership does put some pressure on Apple to provide this support as well. But it just feels like something that isn't really their style. While having software components appear like "just another container" is great for developers, its very anti-Apple. They don't view the iphone as "just another smartphone". Everything Apple is standout/special in some way. I hope I am wrong though because I love Docker and would welcome this with open arms.
  - nickstinemates 12y ago
    Outside of the frame of talking about partnerships but talking as an apple/Docker fan, Docker running on ios would be awesome
    - 23david 12y ago
      you mean on osx, right?
      - nickstinemates 12y ago
        Nope, I meant ios :)
        enos_feedler 12y ago
        I suppose "open arms" is now a pun then :)
tenfourty 12y ago
will Windows base images be made available on the Docker Hub? How will that work?
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  > will Windows base images be made available on the Docker Hub? Yes! > How will that work? The same way it works now. Find an image you want to run, and docker run it.
  - tenfourty 12y ago
    so Window's licences will be free?
    - mbreese 12y ago
      I suspect that you'd still need a Windows Server license to start off with. It may or may not need a VM under the hood, but that's a MS thing to figure out. They certainly couldn't license a container the same way as a full Windows VM or bare metal install.
      - lightbritefight 12y ago
        Id expect that since the idea is having your windows container running on a windows host, that each version of windows server will have a "this edition allows X number of containers" limit. This would line up with how they treat VMs. Lets hope the number is 5x the current VM limits.
        aruggirello 12y ago
        > Lets hope the number is 5x the current VM limits. Why, let's open they are unlimited. :)
    - nickstinemates 12y ago
      Great question. I'll be honest and say I don't have an answer. However, we're working on derive one and you'll know as soon as we do.
mixedbit 12y ago
Aren't you concern that technical cooperation with a huge company like MS will slow down your progress?
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  No - if technical cooperation with a huge company slowed us down, we'd be dead in the water. We've partnered with IBM, Google, Red Hat, VMWare.. lots of big names, lots of great ambition.
markab21 12y ago
Sorry if this is obvious somewhere, but i have to ask: Will this allow me on windows to pull a linux-based image (ubuntu for example) and run it on the windows platform or pull a windows based image and run it on the linux docker platform host?
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  > Will this allow me on windows to pull a linux-based image (ubuntu for example) and run it on the windows platform You can do this today with boot2docker (running a linux VM behind the scenes) > pull a windows based image and run it on the linux docker platform host? I suppose the opposite of what I said could be true using something like KVM, but not a use case we are seeing a lot of right now.
  - mbreese 12y ago
    If this is all a wrapper around boot2docker, everyone will be very disappointed... I highly doubt this is what the original question was about.
    - nickstinemates 12y ago
      It is not (a wrapper around b2d;) I tried to answer the specific question asked instead of guessing what the question is. The goal is: Package your Windows app in a docker container, use same tooling you would otherwise use to deploy to a docker engine running on a Windows host Package your Linux app in a docker container, use same tooling you would otherwise use to deploy to a docker engine running on a Linux host.
      - BinaryIdiot 12y ago
        Is the mix of that true as well? Package your Windows app in a docker container, use same tooling you would otherwise use to deploy to a docker engine running on a Linux host and vice versa? If not initially is that an ultimate goal?
tegeek 12y ago
I guess Windows Server already has some kind of "containerization" [1]. Will Docker be shipped as a part of a Windows Component & a paid service from MSFT? http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enterprise/products-and-technologies/virtualization/application/default.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enterprise/products-a...
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  That's part of the announcement, windows will be updated to include Container primitives which docker will use.
  - wavefunction 12y ago
    All versions of Windows? I wouldn't expect their entry level offering to but having it on the pro versions would be nice.
joemccall86 12y ago
Excuse the ignorance, since I'm fairly new to Docker. I'm excited about what Docker allows for during development. Will this partnership eventually lead to being able to run containers on my Windows workstation without needing Ubuntu running in a VM?
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  Yes - windows images on windows hosts, powered by Docker and all tools using the Docker API.
  - gregrata 12y ago
    Very cool! THANKS! ETA? :)
    - orand 12y ago
      ETA: when the next version of Windows Server is released.
newman314 12y ago
Does this mean that we can now easily containerize Windows applications allowing them to be easily moved from machine to machine? This could be huge for DR.
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  That's the promise. It's not done yet, we are just getting started.
- RobotCaleb 12y ago
  What's DR?
  - nickstinemates 12y ago
    Disaster Recovery

odonnellryan 12y ago

Will the MS bits be open-source? Will it be in Go?

nickstinemates 12y ago
> Will the MS bits be open-source? The MS-bits they're contributing to the Docker project will be contributed in the same way everyone does - under the Apache 2 License, in the open, etc. > Will it be in Go? It will be contributed in the main docker repo - github.com/docker/docker As a result, it will be a community/maintainer decision what language it's written in, but obviously we're heavily biased toward Go.
- tmzt 12y ago
  Can you comment at this point about what containerization on Windows will look like. A tree of processes, a lighter, file-based HyperV, or something else? What effect will this have on the filesystem layout? Will native ACLs be supported or mapping to Unix permissions? Has a timeline for initial code in github been announced?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - nickstinemates 12y ago
    Disclaimer: I am not speaking for Microsoft here, but my understanding of the facts that have been released. > Can you comment at this point about what containerization on Windows will look like. I cannot directly. > A tree of processes, a lighter, file-based HyperV, or something else? HyperV integration will exist (and is currently being worked on in the open for Docker) but the technology is fundamental to Windows, like hyper-v. As far as I am aware, not a hyper-v decendant. > What effect will this have on the filesystem layout? Each container will have its own. > Will native ACLs be supported or mapping to Unix permissions? Can't comment on these details, sorry! > Has a timeline for initial code in github been announced? It has not.
  - johngossman 12y ago
    John Gossman from Microsoft here. Windows Server containers use the approach sometimes called Operating System Virtualization, just like Linux containers, Jails, etc.. The Wikipedia article is a pretty good summary: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system%E2%80%93level_virtualization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system%E2%80%93level_... They are process based. They do not depend on HyperV and can run on Windows Server on bare metal or inside any hypervisor or cloud.
    - benjarrell 12y ago
      Can you compare this to AppV?
      - lstamour 12y ago
        I'll take a stab at it (no relation to Microsoft). As described in the following link, App-V does streaming of client app code from a server, appears very client-oriented. The technology behind it might not be, though: http://blogs.technet.com/b/gladiatormsft/archive/2013/11/05/app-v-on-named-kernel-object-virtualization-a-k-a-the-vobjects-subsystem.aspx http://blogs.technet.com/b/gladiatormsft/archive/2013/11/05/... (describes the registry key with exceptions to the underlying namespacing of handles, I think?) This appears to be called Named Kernel Object Virtualization (a.k.a. the VObjects Subsystem) from the title of the post. But again, client-side oriented. I expect Docker integration to be server-side oriented code for this. Oh and if anyone's saying Microsoft's late to the party, there have been similar attempts on Windows platforms since at least 2006 using such techniques: https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/vee06/full_papers/p24-yu.pdf https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/vee06/full_papers/p24-y...
- johngossman 12y ago
  Nick is right. Our default answer will be to use Go to be consistent with the rest of the Docker project. But we'll use whatever language is right for that part of the project.
  - Rapzid 12y ago
    Which is a .Net language, just saying.
    - BuckRogers 12y ago
      Of course. It will be in C#. Far too much work to be done on Go's Window's support to use it, and no advantage to do so.
      - Rapzid 12y ago
        Exactly. I'm a firm believer that if you're doing orchestration/automation on Windows and you're not using .Net based technologies, you'll wish you were eventually(coming from a HEAVY Chef on Windows user). Plus, there's Powershell modules to consider, and Powershell is .Net based.. And just the general ecosystem to consider, especially Azure itself. And etc, and etc. Though some F# wouldn't be a bad choice, I suspect the prevalence of C# will win out. Just makes this "partnership" a bit more, complicated? Or at least, not what it seems on the surface. If the containers aren't compatible between Linux and Windows, and the tooling will end up .Net in the long run(which I firmly believe), then the only common ground will be some semblance of API compatibility?

eik3_de 12y ago

are you working with Apple to bring native docker to that platfrom?

nickstinemates 12y ago
I can't comment on unannounced partnership or details, sorry!
enos_feedler 12y ago
I really hope the Microsoft partnership does put some pressure on Apple to provide this support as well. But it just feels like something that isn't really their style. While having software components appear like "just another container" is great for developers, its very anti-Apple. They don't view the iphone as "just another smartphone". Everything Apple is standout/special in some way. I hope I am wrong though because I love Docker and would welcome this with open arms.
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  Outside of the frame of talking about partnerships but talking as an apple/Docker fan, Docker running on ios would be awesome
  - 23david 12y ago
    you mean on osx, right?
    - nickstinemates 12y ago
      Nope, I meant ios :)
      - enos_feedler 12y ago
        I suppose "open arms" is now a pun then :)

tenfourty 12y ago

will Windows base images be made available on the Docker Hub? How will that work?

nickstinemates 12y ago
> will Windows base images be made available on the Docker Hub? Yes! > How will that work? The same way it works now. Find an image you want to run, and docker run it.
- tenfourty 12y ago
  so Window's licences will be free?
  - mbreese 12y ago
    I suspect that you'd still need a Windows Server license to start off with. It may or may not need a VM under the hood, but that's a MS thing to figure out. They certainly couldn't license a container the same way as a full Windows VM or bare metal install.
    - lightbritefight 12y ago
      Id expect that since the idea is having your windows container running on a windows host, that each version of windows server will have a "this edition allows X number of containers" limit. This would line up with how they treat VMs. Lets hope the number is 5x the current VM limits.
      - aruggirello 12y ago
        > Lets hope the number is 5x the current VM limits. Why, let's open they are unlimited. :)
  - nickstinemates 12y ago
    Great question. I'll be honest and say I don't have an answer. However, we're working on derive one and you'll know as soon as we do.

mixedbit 12y ago

Aren't you concern that technical cooperation with a huge company like MS will slow down your progress?

nickstinemates 12y ago
No - if technical cooperation with a huge company slowed us down, we'd be dead in the water. We've partnered with IBM, Google, Red Hat, VMWare.. lots of big names, lots of great ambition.

markab21 12y ago

Sorry if this is obvious somewhere, but i have to ask: Will this allow me on windows to pull a linux-based image (ubuntu for example) and run it on the windows platform or pull a windows based image and run it on the linux docker platform host?

nickstinemates 12y ago
> Will this allow me on windows to pull a linux-based image (ubuntu for example) and run it on the windows platform You can do this today with boot2docker (running a linux VM behind the scenes) > pull a windows based image and run it on the linux docker platform host? I suppose the opposite of what I said could be true using something like KVM, but not a use case we are seeing a lot of right now.
- mbreese 12y ago
  If this is all a wrapper around boot2docker, everyone will be very disappointed... I highly doubt this is what the original question was about.
  - nickstinemates 12y ago
    It is not (a wrapper around b2d;) I tried to answer the specific question asked instead of guessing what the question is. The goal is: Package your Windows app in a docker container, use same tooling you would otherwise use to deploy to a docker engine running on a Windows host Package your Linux app in a docker container, use same tooling you would otherwise use to deploy to a docker engine running on a Linux host.
    - BinaryIdiot 12y ago
      Is the mix of that true as well? Package your Windows app in a docker container, use same tooling you would otherwise use to deploy to a docker engine running on a Linux host and vice versa? If not initially is that an ultimate goal?

tegeek 12y ago

I guess Windows Server already has some kind of "containerization" [1]. Will Docker be shipped as a part of a Windows Component & a paid service from MSFT? http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enterprise/products-and-technologies/virtualization/application/default.aspx http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/enterprise/products-a...

nickstinemates 12y ago
That's part of the announcement, windows will be updated to include Container primitives which docker will use.
- wavefunction 12y ago
  All versions of Windows? I wouldn't expect their entry level offering to but having it on the pro versions would be nice.

joemccall86 12y ago

Excuse the ignorance, since I'm fairly new to Docker. I'm excited about what Docker allows for during development. Will this partnership eventually lead to being able to run containers on my Windows workstation without needing Ubuntu running in a VM?

nickstinemates 12y ago
Yes - windows images on windows hosts, powered by Docker and all tools using the Docker API.
- gregrata 12y ago
  Very cool! THANKS! ETA? :)
  - orand 12y ago
    ETA: when the next version of Windows Server is released.

newman314 12y ago

Does this mean that we can now easily containerize Windows applications allowing them to be easily moved from machine to machine? This could be huge for DR.

nickstinemates 12y ago
That's the promise. It's not done yet, we are just getting started.
RobotCaleb 12y ago
What's DR?
- nickstinemates 12y ago
  Disaster Recovery