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The Great Robocoin Rip-off: How We Lost $25,000 Buying a Robocoin ATM

575 points by metalab 12y ago

wyager 12y ago
I've heard nothing but bad reviews about these things from the user end as well. I have no idea why one would buy a Robocoin machine when there are a number of evidently superior alternatives.
- agorabinary 12y ago
  How are the alternatives "evidently superior"? Not that I doubt this Robocoin experience, but playing devil's advocate and the bitcoin economy... is a bit necessary. When Butterfly Labs was scamming people over so long a period, it was difficult to mention them without a flurry of negative personal anecdotes coming your way. Is this also the case with Robocoin, or is this an isolated incident?
  - wyager 12y ago
    >How are the alternatives "evidently superior"? The existence of positive reviews and relative lack of negative reviews.
armenarmen 12y ago
I was looking at going in on one of these with a friend. Thanks for the heads up. Good luck getting your money back, the whole thing seems hellish.
cstrat 12y ago
wow that sounds like a horrible experience! it is unfortunate that you got stung like that. out of interest, what was the expected ROI? I mean, you sunk $25K into it. even if you were charging 5% fees - you would need half a million in transactions to break even, and that isn't including the monthly rental fee for the location. is there really that big of a demand for BTC in a pub?
- markburns 12y ago
  I would guess the demand would be created to a certain extent. A single data point, but I travelled to Tokyo from another part of Japan to visit the only BTC ATM in Japan, so there may be a novelty factor involved for other people too.
- ohazi 12y ago
  I think the idea is that there's demand for cash at a pub, but I also don't see how you'd reasonably expect to break even with this setup.
  - cstrat 12y ago
    Ah yeah thats right, when I read the emails, it read more like an ATM that accepted deposits (there were currency scanning issues attributed to the polymer notes) rather than cashing out. I guess it would work both ways.
  - vonklaus 12y ago
    bitcoin appreciation I think. They essentially buy low and include steep transaction fees, which I think are warranted for how convenient this would be, and then you hold the currency if you are speculating.
- yzzxy 12y ago
  Eh, I think it's going to draw people to the pub more than anything else. And if you're a bitcoin evangelist, I could understand sinking your disposable income into a cool thing that might get more people into the currency. Current BTC owners/speculators only stand to profit from userbase growth because the currency growth rate is fixed or very controlled if I understand the system correctly. Probably wouldn't make 25k back, but it softens the blow a bit. As a side note, I just realized BTC may become a really good existence proof for Piketty's r > g proposition, though one probably can't extend that idea out to economics in general because bitcoin is so weird.
- vonklaus 12y ago
  I am not saying that there would be a lucrative ROI, but if you expect bitcoin to rise sharply it is a good way to trade cash en masse for bitcoins. So you would (most likely) be outputting heaps of cash and receiving bitcoins in the process. Between fees and currency appreciation you could probably make your money back and have a fun experience. That is, unless a completely unorganized company opperates their business in a cartoonishly unprofessional manner, and your ATM arrives 3-4 months late and broken...
ObviousScience 12y ago
From my experience with one of their ATMs (both myself and two friends using it), they're incredibly error prone and not even shitty-ATM levels of usable. (I'm loathe to name locations, since the owners of the ATM are friends of mine and have dealt promptly with any problems I've had stemming from the ATM. They're often at the bar where it's located, as bar customers, and I've seen them deal with other upset ATM users. Great businessmen, bad equipment.) That being said, it doesn't really surprise me that people with that poor of a user experience have poor customer service. What is it about the bitcoin market that seems to attract less-than-ideal business practices?
- joegaudet 12y ago
  A currency that defies regulation attracts less-than-ideal business practices - our highly regulated baking system attracts poor business practices, none of this should be surprising.
AYBABTME 12y ago
Sad story but: > We’re prepared to take legal action, but we figured we’d give Jordan a taste of internet justice first. IANAL but, I don't think you're helping your case by seeking internet justice.
- flyinglizard 12y ago
  First, he's doing the morally right thing by calling them out after a fiasco spanning several months, backed by correspondence. Second, applying public pressure to get his refund is much better than going to litigious way, unless he seeks damages too (which I believe he doesn't - just wants his refund back).
  - leovander 12y ago
    I get that we are on the Internet and everyone gets a voice, but they should have let their lawyers do the talking. Both companies are run by adults I assume, but both are throwing sand in each other's faces running across the playground, in this case reddit, Twitter and HN. Either party can use this as slander I suppose. If Robocoin is still making money, this bad PR might go against them for just a bit, but their "success" with others will pass on via word of mouth. If acting like kids on the Internet has worked well for others in order to get their own back, someone should write up a pretty medium article outlining a proper way to do this for any company.
    - PeterisP 12y ago
      Disregarding the legal issues, warning other customers of such behavior is pretty much a moral duty - keeping mum, as you propose, would be a shameful behavior and if everyone did that way then we'd have a worse society.
      - paulhauggis 12y ago
        Maybe. But 9/10, we get a hate mob fueled by a one-sided story by someone who feels "offended". There isn't enough punishment when it's all based on false information. In fact, there's none. If I was the target, I would be personally ruining the lives of the people that started it. It would be my moral imperative. look at what happened with notch and minecraft. Silly children that couldn't get their own way decided to get the masses sending him shitty and hateful messages, which eventually led to his quitting/selling to microsoft.
vmp 12y ago
Is it such a good idea to invest in something that's built on deprecated software (Windows XP)? And to handle money, no less. I'm a layman in regards to this, but is there a valid reason to choose XP over, lets say, a LTS Ubuntu release? Maybe some PCI ruling or something like that? Just seems strange and I've had a bad vibe ever since I read it.
- wodenokoto 12y ago
  It's quite common for ATM's to be running Windows XP, so maybe that is why this one is doing it as well. And ATM's and POS machines running XP do still receive security updates.
  - vmp 12y ago
    Interesting, thanks for the clarification.
    - majidarif 12y ago
      This is true, you'll notice atm machines when under maintenance shows the classic XP screen. Though I do not know, why they still use that.
      - daeken 12y ago
        They use it because it works for them and it's not worth upgrading and taking on that risk. That said, that in no way excuses using XP for new development.
      - gambiting 12y ago
        Because ATMs are usually not connected to the Internet, so there are minimal attack vectors. Every time you make a transaction the ATM literally rings up the bank, using an old fashioned modem. They could probably have Windows 95 installed on them and they would still work fine.
        12y ago
nashequilibrium 12y ago
Wow and the ceo acts like he is killing it on twitter. If this is how you guys were treated,i guarantee you there is lots more. Thanks for going public as this will save a lot of other people time and money.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Blackthorn 12y ago
I am shocked, shocked that a Bitcoin-related vendor was crooked. Really, this story does totally suck for you guys but there should be absolutely zero trust or respect for anyone selling anything related to bitcoin at the moment. You're just begging to be ripped off.
jhonovich 12y ago
Important lesson for expensive capital goods: Pay upon delivery or net 30. Do not pay in full before shipment.
Animats 12y ago
The fraud level in the Bitcoin world is so high that it makes South Florida look good. There's a working Robocoin ATM at Hacker Dojo in Mountain View, CA. Nobody uses it. Nor should they. 15% bid/ask spread, 5% fee. Incidentally, the retail price for an ordinary ATM machine is $2,000 to $4,500, depending on the features ordered. A standard through-the-wall bank ATM is about $9,500. Even if you order every option from cash deposit through biometrics, they don't cost $25,000.
- raverbashing 12y ago
  "Incidentally, the retail price for an ordinary ATM machine is $2,000 to $4,500" But, but.... those banks know nothing about bitcoin, it's the future... And of course, the markup is moot, because you didn't get the product.
  - imaginenore 12y ago
    That's the dumbest argument ever. You are comparing one of the most expensive bitcoin ATMs with the cheapest traditional ATMs. "But, but" is the core of your argument.
    - wpietri 12y ago
      Even granting Poe's Law, when somebody says something so dumb you can't believe it, it's often worth actually not believing it.
    - raverbashing 12y ago
      What's dumb is not knowing the price level of a product and paying the full amount without any warranty.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Ordinary ATMs have economies of scale not available to Bitcoin ATMs, from simply making bigger purchases to distributing fixed costs (like software development). It's also a much safer business - you can be relatively sure the dollar economy won't crash tomorrow and kill your business.
sgentle 12y ago
"Just so we're perfectly aligned, I want you to understand the relationship that Robocoin has with our manufacturer. We are actually just a reseller of their kiosks with our software." I've heard this from smaller retailers of all kinds of products and, as pointed out in Andrew's reply, it's complete bullshit. The company that took your money is the company you formed a contract with. Any nonsense about "yeah, but the manufacturer..." is a smokescreen designed to dodge responsibility. (Wimpy disclaimer: this isn't legal advice and maybe it's not true if you live in Yemen or something, I dunno)
- nols 12y ago
  I really think that it's not even a smokescreen as much as it's really what they think. "Why should I assume any risk when I'm just a reseller?" is a common thought among many new companies. They don't really see themselves as a business with its own risk as much as a subsidiary of the company. It's just a sign of naiveté among many new entrepreneurs.
  - spacemanmatt 12y ago
    A necessary question: What value am I providing? In their case, they dodged providing any at all.
jmathai 12y ago
Absolutely terrible. I have the feeling that Jordan knows exactly what he's doing. The amount of $20,000 is a lot but it's not that much once you start to hire lawyers and file a suit or go into arbitration. Sounds like he's stringing them along waiting to see how much more cash they're willing to invest to recoup that $20,000. Even worse Jordan might be setting himself up for a settlement of less than $20,000 where he keeps some of the money but knows it's a better offer for Andrew and Rajiv than hiring lawyers. Been there. Done that. I'll never look at a purchase or legal document the same again. Jordan's got the upper hand here.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- asdfaoeu 12y ago
  > I have the feeling that Jordan knows exactly what he's doing. The amount of $20,000 is a lot but it's not that much once you start to hire lawyers and file a suit or go into arbitration. Sounds like he's stringing them along waiting to see how much more cash they're willing to invest to recoup that $20,000. I'd say they are just on the verge of bankruptcy and probably have similar experiences with other customers and just attempting to string them along enough that they can keep going.
- flyinglizard 12y ago
  I wouldn't say Jordan has the upper hand. Managing the reputation of the company is critical for the survival of a startup. Andrew may lose, at worst, $20k, but Jordan can lose everything (unless its a scam or they already made a substantial profit from these machines).
  - thor800 12y ago
    Managing the reputation is important, but not nearly as much as shipping a product that actually functions and owning up to your shortcomings. When customers are treated unfairly and dicked around, they post stories on HN and Reddit. Good luck trying to manage your reputation from there.
  - 12y ago
epaga 12y ago
Robocoin CEO (Jordan) has responded here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_robocoin_ripoff_how_we_lost_25000/cl9yw80 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro...
nikcub 12y ago
If you're wondering how you should do these types of transactions without putting cash up front, the field is called trade finance. Call your bank - most of them have a trade finance desk, or Google the term. A slightly cheaper way of doing it is to have a lawyer draft a terms of trade or supply agreement with either the funds in escrow with the firm or a bank guarantee. Having your bank finance the trade is worthwhile as interest rates are so low at the moment. Common terms are 60, 90 or 120 day delivery with FED/LIBOR + x% (where x is the risk profile of your business - shop around to get prices) cost over the term. The agreement would contain delivery timetables, warranties, customs clearance, liabilities, indemnities, guarantees, who pays what, etc. and you are protected legally without handing over tens of thousands of dollars or more upfront. These contracts are protected by law in almost all jurisdictions. You don't finalize the transaction and pay for it until all conditions have been met and you have the goods in hand and have verified. The seller is trusting an international bank or a law firm escrow, and they should also have a lawyer or bank on their end (a trusted seller can receive the cash upfront for a fee with the bank picking up the risk, although I doubt any bank would finance a bitcoin atm without verified trade volume and a lower risk profile). Talk to your lawyer and talk to your bank, having expensive items delivered without risking the full cost is a solved problem as old as finance itself and trillions of dollars annually are traded in this way. The extra $1k or so you'd pay on a $25k deal are worth it for the guarantee. If you ship goods regularly the costs are amortized as you can use the same contracts and finance suppliers. Don't deal with anybody shipping $20k+ valued products that doesn't deal with a bank trade finance desk or law firm and is instead asking for a bank transfer. This is how most high cost goods are traded - from oil and other commodity supply contracts through to companies like Boeing and Airbus supplying planes, or GE supplying turbines for a power plant. Most people without experience lead into it thinking that buying something that costs $25k, $100k or millions of dollars is just the same as purchasing something at your local store just with bigger numbers. It isn't. Bitcoin multisig transactions, or m of n transactions are also worth investigating as they cut the costs - although there is currently a lack of escrow/intermediaries who are as trusted as major law firms or an international bank. There is a huge opportunity in cutting the costs and fees associated with trade finance with bitcoin.
- wsxcde 12y ago
conductr 12y ago
I used to place/sell regular ATMs. This Stuff sounds pretty standard for the industry. Nobody, even the biggest companies, seem to know what they're doing.
aleem 12y ago
Jordan Kelley has posted his response on Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_robocoin_ripoff_how_we_lost_25000/cl9yw80 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro... Judging from the replies, it seems to have backfired probably because he did not acknowledge the errors on his side (shipping a lemon, unresponsive over email and not having provided a refund yet). Worse, he doesn't seem to realise that the name-and-shame was a result of his and ultimately RoboCoin's actions. Edit: The correct response would have been to issue a refund immediately, acknowledge and apologise for the issue, highlight the trouble area (upstream supplier issues or whatever lead to this), and commit to solving or already having solved this problem for future clients + internal review of this mishap.
- DanBC 12y ago
  Reddit threads sometimes provide nice extra context but the armchair lawyering from angsty 22 yeAr olds is unfun.
  - spacemanmatt 12y ago
    Damnit, you just made me miss Groklaw again.
  - darkstar999 12y ago
    HN isn't immune to armchairing either.
- aleem 12y ago
  Jordan Kelley has since deleted his original response but you can still view it at http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png
  - rasz_pl 12y ago
    When I clicked on his nickname, robocoinjordan, few hours ago there was ANOTHER post from him where he states he is sorry and just wired the money - it seems that second post is also deleted now
skyjacker 12y ago
Personally, I've tried five times to make small purchases with Bitcoin (this was several years ago). In all cases I was ripped off and never received product. It's not going to be government regulations that kill Bitcoin, its the associations with illicit drugs, child pornography, and dishonesty of vendors like Robocoin.
- Havvy 12y ago
  On IRC, somebody once put a bug bounty of 2BTC for a geometric problem. I fixed the bug in two hours (including the time it took to look up the geometry formulas...) and did receive the bitcoin. This was at the time that Bitcoin was trending $850 each. It seems to me though, that due to bitcoin's relative newness and grey market status, you're going to see a lot of scammers and bad businessmen related to it. It's high risk in that sense, and you need to do your research. Give it time, and the bad business practices will be weeded out, and stability will come. This is the pain of early adoption.
- eric_bullington 12y ago
  On the other hand, I've been into Bitcoin since early 2011, have made hundreds of purchases with Bitcoin, gotten made for major contract jobs in Bitcoin, paid other contractors in Bitcoin, and never been ripped off. You just have to exercise some caution and do your due diligence. Unfortunately, Bitcoin has attracted more than its fair share of scammers -- in part because the core community was at one time pretty naive -- but it's also full of honest people who are attracted to Bitcoin for ideological reasons, and fellow technophiles who are happy to engage in honest commerce with other people.
  - knowaveragejoe 12y ago
    While that's all well and good, I don't think that will translate so well into the mass market. At least not for some time.
    - eric_bullington 12y ago
      That's OK. As long as there is a large enough population using Bitcoin to create a small economy, that's fine with me. Right now, I get paid in Bitcoin, and pay for about 40%-50% of my household expenses in Bitcoin (and increasing monthly). For people who are attracted to Bitcoin for ideological or technological reasons, mass adoption would be nice, but it's not as important to us as it is to the massive wave of "to the moon!" speculators who came in last fall.
everydaypanos 12y ago
1. Going public on this shows lack of common sense, since the guy there said that contract had 0 refunds in it... 2. Expecting to pay $25k and pressing a button and then making $2k per month for eternity is NOT wise.
- probably_wrong 12y ago
  Regarding point 1: a contract is an agreement between two or more parties. In this case, Robocoin agreed to deliver a working Bitcoin ATM, and Andrew and Rajiv agreed to pay a certain amount for it. Robocoin didn't do what they promised they would do, or did it badly. Therefore, A&R are not required to uphold their end of the deal - in fact, if they are willing to take the matter to court, they are also entitled to get a compensation for all the extra money they lost. So even though the contract specifies "no refunds", that contract was broken by Robocoin, and therefore A&R should indeed get their money back.
  - spacemanmatt 12y ago
    I am often shocked when I hear people lean on that "it's in the contract" nonsense. State and federal law have always superseded contract law, or else people could overthrow the government by means of contracts. It's just a ridiculous notion to hold, as evidenced by the ridicule heaped on it here, reddit, and twitter.
- spacemanmatt 12y ago
  So investments are unwise because you might get burned? I don't think you can find traction for that view here.
everydaypanos 12y ago
1. Going public on this shows lack of common sense, since the guy there said that contract had 0 refunds in it... 2. Expecting to pay $25k and pressing a button and then making $2k per month for eternity is NOT wise.
runn1ng 12y ago
A Bitcoin - related company committing fraud and acting scammy? I am shocked.
tim333 12y ago
I'm curious if anyone has seen a working Robocoin ATM? Jordan says on Reddit there are "65 out an live in the world"
geobz123 12y ago
Thanks for sharing. That guy Jordan deserves to be brought in Justice.
lazyjones 12y ago
I have had some dealings with fraudulent merchants (while running a popular price comparison site and dealing with customer complaints, criminal charges against mervchants etc.) in the past 14 years and my gut feeling with this is that this Jordan has already spent your money on his expensive lifestyle. It's the repeated false promises and claims he makes in his e-mails that create this impression, for example the quick refund. A serious businessman only promises this if he can make absolutely sure that the customer will get it (and it doesn't matter that he wrote "we hope to ...", it's a clear message). I've also read Jordan's reddit posts, sounds fishy as hell.
lazyant 12y ago
google "translate robo"
pearjuice 12y ago
Meanwhile: Dorian Nakamoto - alleged Bitcoin founder - is trying to raise a fund because this whole Bitcoin entourage and goldrush has destroyed his personal life. Hopefully if Andrew gets a refund he will be so nice to donate a bit to The Dorian Nakamoto Legal Defense Fund. http://www.newsweeklied.com/ http://www.newsweeklied.com/
- eli 12y ago
  Kinda seems like more of an "attack fund" than a "defense fund." Also doesn't really seem to say how Dorian was harmed.
kreinba 12y ago
That is a really sad story...
AJ007 12y ago
This wouldn't be the only company selling Bitcoin related hardware that probably should not be in business: http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2014/09/ftcs-request-court-halts-bogus-bitcoin-mining-operation http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2014/09/ftcs-r... (Butterfly Labs)
smileysteve 12y ago
This type of experience is why I don't understand "No Chargeback" or "Replace the credit card" type marketing. If I purchase this with my credit card and don't get the product before the price goes down, I have the option to cancel the order or get the lower price. If the product gets stuck in RMA or support is not as promised, I can chargeback. The 'advantage' of bitcoin is that now I have to deal directly with the vendor, who is not my advocate.
josu 12y ago
Jeff Berwick, one of the founders of the project withdrew from it back in May 2013. https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2013/5/2/my-official-withdrawal-from-the-bitcoinatm-project.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2013/5/2/my-official-wi...
kyledrake 12y ago
I've helped work on Project Skyhook, which is a $1000 Bitcoin ATM: http://projectskyhook.com http://projectskyhook.com Orders ship within 2-3 weeks. Shipping to Canada is no problem, customs is no problem. Assembly is in Portland, Oregon, so it's a quick ship to Vancouver. We've shipped hundreds of units. Setup is completely on the owner's end. Owners don't need the company to configure the unit, and the company doesn't need to run servers for them. Skyhook ATMs use blockchain.com for the wallets (using accounts the owner creates independently), and the exchange price source is the owner's choice, all controlled through the interface. This isn't to avoid having a setup phase - it's to allow owners to have complete control over their money, because then it's a trustless system (the source code to the ATMs is open and auditable: https://github.com/projectskyhook https://github.com/projectskyhook). I'm astounded at the prices on some of these ATMs. For $25,000 they could have ordered 24 Skyhooks (a little padding for shipping, which I believe can be palleted to save money). Bitcoin ATMs shouldn't cost the down payment on a house, IMHO. Skyhook is also completely bootstrapped by the founders (no VCs) and a result of that (and careful burn rate management) is now profitable, despite the low price point. The cofounders have been using some of the money (and their free time) to help clean up and build out a new hacker/makerspace in Portland that's going to be awesome. Easily the best group of people I've ever had the privilege to work with. I wish more people approached startups this way. There's a real pride to making companies on your terms that you control, and succeeding at it. Startups shouldn't be about overvaluing your company and having Kid Rock do a rock concert in your back yard.
- jboggan 12y ago
  The physical security on units such as these, or the majority of newly manufactured Bitcoin ATMs, is a joke. There's a good reason to build a large, heavy safe into an ATM, and all but the very strongest and most expensive can be broken into trivially. Bitcoin ATMs are even worse than cash ATMs from this perspective because physical compromise of the machine potentially nets you private keys. Small/cheap units like this also don't support industry standard features like Mas locks or other one-time-combination locks to allow third party security and cash replenishment organizations to service them. [0] A used Mas lock (or its equivalent) will run you at least $500 and newer units are easily over $1,000 [1] I'm speaking as a former ATM technician. 0 - http://www.kaba-mas.com/kaba-brand/products/366024/cencon.html http://www.kaba-mas.com/kaba-brand/products/366024/cencon.ht... 1 - http://www.jmacsupply.com/Kaba_Mas_X09SRD00FZJEZ1A_p/KABA-MAS-X09SRD00FZJEZ1A.htm?gclid=CIzErPSCr8ECFaIF7AodmFMAgQ http://www.jmacsupply.com/Kaba_Mas_X09SRD00FZJEZ1A_p/KABA-MA...
jordanrobocoin 12y ago
Apology letter from Jordan: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_robocoin_ripoff_how_we_lost_25000/cla6b7d http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro...
- slapresta 12y ago
  Discussing this apology without discussing the Reddit comment it replaced only tells half the story: http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png
- rip747 12y ago
  So you want a pat on the head or something for finally doing the right thing? Sorry kid, but by you letting the situation escalate to this point shows me that you have no place in the business world. I really hope your company sees how poorly you've handled this situation and removes you from it.
- spacemanmatt 12y ago
  A sorry-not-sorry post, which is later edited for Jordan's benefit, then apparently he posted an image of the wire transfer in progress and failed to redact the recipient's account details, despite trying! Would that all of theme were this blatant and easy to identify.
hatty 12y ago
Full refund processing. "Hey [omitted], http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_robocoin_ripoff_how_we_lost_25000/cla6b7d http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro... It was really poorly handled. I take full accountability." -Jordan
blt 12y ago
First warning sign: smiley faces and hashtags in Robocoin's initial email responses. I would expect nothing but professionalism from someone who just sold me a $20,000 product.
- javajosh 12y ago
  This stuck out for me, too. Jordan was far too chummy in his responses. This signals, "I want you to like me so that when I fuck up you will give me more slack." It's not genuine warmth, it's a cynical, sociopathic ploy to garner imaginary "friend credits" that can be traded for real money when need. (It actually reminds me of how mobile customer service call centers repeatedly, obnoxiously apologize, to the point where they seriously degrade the service. I would much rather a person help me than waste time apologizing to me.)
jafingi 12y ago
Wow, what a devastating story! Really feel sorry for you guys. I have retweeted your tweet. But let this be a reminder that you should never pay the full amount up front. Hope you will get in court with that smarmy Jordan Kelley.
tobiasSoftware 12y ago
Was just reading the reddit thread and Jordan posted a picture of a transfer of $25000 to Andrew. However the details were not blacked out properly, you could see the address easily and could probably figure out the account numbers given a bit of time. The picture has since been removed.
joshmn 12y ago
For things like this, I find great "relief" in using BananaTag (http://bananatag.com http://bananatag.com)
tyang 12y ago
Next time pay using a credit card. :)
tomaspollak 12y ago
funny thing: 'robo' in spanish actually means theft.

575 points by metalab 12y ago

I've heard nothing but bad reviews about these things from the user end as well. I have no idea why one would buy a Robocoin machine when there are a number of evidently superior alternatives.

agorabinary 12y ago
How are the alternatives "evidently superior"? Not that I doubt this Robocoin experience, but playing devil's advocate and the bitcoin economy... is a bit necessary. When Butterfly Labs was scamming people over so long a period, it was difficult to mention them without a flurry of negative personal anecdotes coming your way. Is this also the case with Robocoin, or is this an isolated incident?
- wyager 12y ago
  >How are the alternatives "evidently superior"? The existence of positive reviews and relative lack of negative reviews.

armenarmen 12y ago

I was looking at going in on one of these with a friend. Thanks for the heads up. Good luck getting your money back, the whole thing seems hellish.

cstrat 12y ago

wow that sounds like a horrible experience! it is unfortunate that you got stung like that. out of interest, what was the expected ROI? I mean, you sunk $25K into it. even if you were charging 5% fees - you would need half a million in transactions to break even, and that isn't including the monthly rental fee for the location. is there really that big of a demand for BTC in a pub?

markburns 12y ago
I would guess the demand would be created to a certain extent. A single data point, but I travelled to Tokyo from another part of Japan to visit the only BTC ATM in Japan, so there may be a novelty factor involved for other people too.
ohazi 12y ago
I think the idea is that there's demand for cash at a pub, but I also don't see how you'd reasonably expect to break even with this setup.
- cstrat 12y ago
  Ah yeah thats right, when I read the emails, it read more like an ATM that accepted deposits (there were currency scanning issues attributed to the polymer notes) rather than cashing out. I guess it would work both ways.
- vonklaus 12y ago
  bitcoin appreciation I think. They essentially buy low and include steep transaction fees, which I think are warranted for how convenient this would be, and then you hold the currency if you are speculating.
yzzxy 12y ago
Eh, I think it's going to draw people to the pub more than anything else. And if you're a bitcoin evangelist, I could understand sinking your disposable income into a cool thing that might get more people into the currency. Current BTC owners/speculators only stand to profit from userbase growth because the currency growth rate is fixed or very controlled if I understand the system correctly. Probably wouldn't make 25k back, but it softens the blow a bit. As a side note, I just realized BTC may become a really good existence proof for Piketty's r > g proposition, though one probably can't extend that idea out to economics in general because bitcoin is so weird.
vonklaus 12y ago
I am not saying that there would be a lucrative ROI, but if you expect bitcoin to rise sharply it is a good way to trade cash en masse for bitcoins. So you would (most likely) be outputting heaps of cash and receiving bitcoins in the process. Between fees and currency appreciation you could probably make your money back and have a fun experience. That is, unless a completely unorganized company opperates their business in a cartoonishly unprofessional manner, and your ATM arrives 3-4 months late and broken...

ObviousScience 12y ago

From my experience with one of their ATMs (both myself and two friends using it), they're incredibly error prone and not even shitty-ATM levels of usable. (I'm loathe to name locations, since the owners of the ATM are friends of mine and have dealt promptly with any problems I've had stemming from the ATM. They're often at the bar where it's located, as bar customers, and I've seen them deal with other upset ATM users. Great businessmen, bad equipment.) That being said, it doesn't really surprise me that people with that poor of a user experience have poor customer service. What is it about the bitcoin market that seems to attract less-than-ideal business practices?

joegaudet 12y ago
A currency that defies regulation attracts less-than-ideal business practices - our highly regulated baking system attracts poor business practices, none of this should be surprising.

AYBABTME 12y ago

Sad story but: > We’re prepared to take legal action, but we figured we’d give Jordan a taste of internet justice first. IANAL but, I don't think you're helping your case by seeking internet justice.

flyinglizard 12y ago
First, he's doing the morally right thing by calling them out after a fiasco spanning several months, backed by correspondence. Second, applying public pressure to get his refund is much better than going to litigious way, unless he seeks damages too (which I believe he doesn't - just wants his refund back).
- leovander 12y ago
  I get that we are on the Internet and everyone gets a voice, but they should have let their lawyers do the talking. Both companies are run by adults I assume, but both are throwing sand in each other's faces running across the playground, in this case reddit, Twitter and HN. Either party can use this as slander I suppose. If Robocoin is still making money, this bad PR might go against them for just a bit, but their "success" with others will pass on via word of mouth. If acting like kids on the Internet has worked well for others in order to get their own back, someone should write up a pretty medium article outlining a proper way to do this for any company.
  - PeterisP 12y ago
    Disregarding the legal issues, warning other customers of such behavior is pretty much a moral duty - keeping mum, as you propose, would be a shameful behavior and if everyone did that way then we'd have a worse society.
    - paulhauggis 12y ago
      Maybe. But 9/10, we get a hate mob fueled by a one-sided story by someone who feels "offended". There isn't enough punishment when it's all based on false information. In fact, there's none. If I was the target, I would be personally ruining the lives of the people that started it. It would be my moral imperative. look at what happened with notch and minecraft. Silly children that couldn't get their own way decided to get the masses sending him shitty and hateful messages, which eventually led to his quitting/selling to microsoft.

vmp 12y ago

Is it such a good idea to invest in something that's built on deprecated software (Windows XP)? And to handle money, no less. I'm a layman in regards to this, but is there a valid reason to choose XP over, lets say, a LTS Ubuntu release? Maybe some PCI ruling or something like that? Just seems strange and I've had a bad vibe ever since I read it.

wodenokoto 12y ago
It's quite common for ATM's to be running Windows XP, so maybe that is why this one is doing it as well. And ATM's and POS machines running XP do still receive security updates.
- vmp 12y ago
  Interesting, thanks for the clarification.
  - majidarif 12y ago
    This is true, you'll notice atm machines when under maintenance shows the classic XP screen. Though I do not know, why they still use that.
    - daeken 12y ago
      They use it because it works for them and it's not worth upgrading and taking on that risk. That said, that in no way excuses using XP for new development.
    - gambiting 12y ago
      Because ATMs are usually not connected to the Internet, so there are minimal attack vectors. Every time you make a transaction the ATM literally rings up the bank, using an old fashioned modem. They could probably have Windows 95 installed on them and they would still work fine.
      - 12y ago

nashequilibrium 12y ago

Wow and the ceo acts like he is killing it on twitter. If this is how you guys were treated,i guarantee you there is lots more. Thanks for going public as this will save a lot of other people time and money.

deleted 12y ago

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Blackthorn 12y ago

I am shocked, shocked that a Bitcoin-related vendor was crooked. Really, this story does totally suck for you guys but there should be absolutely zero trust or respect for anyone selling anything related to bitcoin at the moment. You're just begging to be ripped off.

jhonovich 12y ago

Important lesson for expensive capital goods: Pay upon delivery or net 30. Do not pay in full before shipment.

Animats 12y ago

The fraud level in the Bitcoin world is so high that it makes South Florida look good. There's a working Robocoin ATM at Hacker Dojo in Mountain View, CA. Nobody uses it. Nor should they. 15% bid/ask spread, 5% fee. Incidentally, the retail price for an ordinary ATM machine is $2,000 to $4,500, depending on the features ordered. A standard through-the-wall bank ATM is about $9,500. Even if you order every option from cash deposit through biometrics, they don't cost $25,000.

raverbashing 12y ago
"Incidentally, the retail price for an ordinary ATM machine is $2,000 to $4,500" But, but.... those banks know nothing about bitcoin, it's the future... And of course, the markup is moot, because you didn't get the product.
- imaginenore 12y ago
  That's the dumbest argument ever. You are comparing one of the most expensive bitcoin ATMs with the cheapest traditional ATMs. "But, but" is the core of your argument.
  - wpietri 12y ago
    Even granting Poe's Law, when somebody says something so dumb you can't believe it, it's often worth actually not believing it.
  - raverbashing 12y ago
    What's dumb is not knowing the price level of a product and paying the full amount without any warranty.
icebraining 12y ago
Ordinary ATMs have economies of scale not available to Bitcoin ATMs, from simply making bigger purchases to distributing fixed costs (like software development). It's also a much safer business - you can be relatively sure the dollar economy won't crash tomorrow and kill your business.

sgentle 12y ago

"Just so we're perfectly aligned, I want you to understand the relationship that Robocoin has with our manufacturer. We are actually just a reseller of their kiosks with our software." I've heard this from smaller retailers of all kinds of products and, as pointed out in Andrew's reply, it's complete bullshit. The company that took your money is the company you formed a contract with. Any nonsense about "yeah, but the manufacturer..." is a smokescreen designed to dodge responsibility. (Wimpy disclaimer: this isn't legal advice and maybe it's not true if you live in Yemen or something, I dunno)

nols 12y ago
I really think that it's not even a smokescreen as much as it's really what they think. "Why should I assume any risk when I'm just a reseller?" is a common thought among many new companies. They don't really see themselves as a business with its own risk as much as a subsidiary of the company. It's just a sign of naiveté among many new entrepreneurs.
- spacemanmatt 12y ago
  A necessary question: What value am I providing? In their case, they dodged providing any at all.

jmathai 12y ago

Absolutely terrible. I have the feeling that Jordan knows exactly what he's doing. The amount of $20,000 is a lot but it's not that much once you start to hire lawyers and file a suit or go into arbitration. Sounds like he's stringing them along waiting to see how much more cash they're willing to invest to recoup that $20,000. Even worse Jordan might be setting himself up for a settlement of less than $20,000 where he keeps some of the money but knows it's a better offer for Andrew and Rajiv than hiring lawyers. Been there. Done that. I'll never look at a purchase or legal document the same again. Jordan's got the upper hand here.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
asdfaoeu 12y ago
> I have the feeling that Jordan knows exactly what he's doing. The amount of $20,000 is a lot but it's not that much once you start to hire lawyers and file a suit or go into arbitration. Sounds like he's stringing them along waiting to see how much more cash they're willing to invest to recoup that $20,000. I'd say they are just on the verge of bankruptcy and probably have similar experiences with other customers and just attempting to string them along enough that they can keep going.
flyinglizard 12y ago
I wouldn't say Jordan has the upper hand. Managing the reputation of the company is critical for the survival of a startup. Andrew may lose, at worst, $20k, but Jordan can lose everything (unless its a scam or they already made a substantial profit from these machines).
- thor800 12y ago
  Managing the reputation is important, but not nearly as much as shipping a product that actually functions and owning up to your shortcomings. When customers are treated unfairly and dicked around, they post stories on HN and Reddit. Good luck trying to manage your reputation from there.
- 12y ago

epaga 12y ago

Robocoin CEO (Jordan) has responded here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_robocoin_ripoff_how_we_lost_25000/cl9yw80 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro...

nikcub 12y ago

If you're wondering how you should do these types of transactions without putting cash up front, the field is called trade finance. Call your bank - most of them have a trade finance desk, or Google the term. A slightly cheaper way of doing it is to have a lawyer draft a terms of trade or supply agreement with either the funds in escrow with the firm or a bank guarantee. Having your bank finance the trade is worthwhile as interest rates are so low at the moment. Common terms are 60, 90 or 120 day delivery with FED/LIBOR + x% (where x is the risk profile of your business - shop around to get prices) cost over the term. The agreement would contain delivery timetables, warranties, customs clearance, liabilities, indemnities, guarantees, who pays what, etc. and you are protected legally without handing over tens of thousands of dollars or more upfront. These contracts are protected by law in almost all jurisdictions. You don't finalize the transaction and pay for it until all conditions have been met and you have the goods in hand and have verified. The seller is trusting an international bank or a law firm escrow, and they should also have a lawyer or bank on their end (a trusted seller can receive the cash upfront for a fee with the bank picking up the risk, although I doubt any bank would finance a bitcoin atm without verified trade volume and a lower risk profile). Talk to your lawyer and talk to your bank, having expensive items delivered without risking the full cost is a solved problem as old as finance itself and trillions of dollars annually are traded in this way. The extra $1k or so you'd pay on a $25k deal are worth it for the guarantee. If you ship goods regularly the costs are amortized as you can use the same contracts and finance suppliers. Don't deal with anybody shipping $20k+ valued products that doesn't deal with a bank trade finance desk or law firm and is instead asking for a bank transfer. This is how most high cost goods are traded - from oil and other commodity supply contracts through to companies like Boeing and Airbus supplying planes, or GE supplying turbines for a power plant. Most people without experience lead into it thinking that buying something that costs $25k, $100k or millions of dollars is just the same as purchasing something at your local store just with bigger numbers. It isn't. Bitcoin multisig transactions, or m of n transactions are also worth investigating as they cut the costs - although there is currently a lack of escrow/intermediaries who are as trusted as major law firms or an international bank. There is a huge opportunity in cutting the costs and fees associated with trade finance with bitcoin.

wsxcde 12y ago

conductr 12y ago

I used to place/sell regular ATMs. This Stuff sounds pretty standard for the industry. Nobody, even the biggest companies, seem to know what they're doing.

aleem 12y ago

Jordan Kelley has posted his response on Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_robocoin_ripoff_how_we_lost_25000/cl9yw80 http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro... Judging from the replies, it seems to have backfired probably because he did not acknowledge the errors on his side (shipping a lemon, unresponsive over email and not having provided a refund yet). Worse, he doesn't seem to realise that the name-and-shame was a result of his and ultimately RoboCoin's actions. Edit: The correct response would have been to issue a refund immediately, acknowledge and apologise for the issue, highlight the trouble area (upstream supplier issues or whatever lead to this), and commit to solving or already having solved this problem for future clients + internal review of this mishap.

DanBC 12y ago
Reddit threads sometimes provide nice extra context but the armchair lawyering from angsty 22 yeAr olds is unfun.
- spacemanmatt 12y ago
  Damnit, you just made me miss Groklaw again.
- darkstar999 12y ago
  HN isn't immune to armchairing either.
aleem 12y ago
Jordan Kelley has since deleted his original response but you can still view it at http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png
- rasz_pl 12y ago
  When I clicked on his nickname, robocoinjordan, few hours ago there was ANOTHER post from him where he states he is sorry and just wired the money - it seems that second post is also deleted now

skyjacker 12y ago

Personally, I've tried five times to make small purchases with Bitcoin (this was several years ago). In all cases I was ripped off and never received product. It's not going to be government regulations that kill Bitcoin, its the associations with illicit drugs, child pornography, and dishonesty of vendors like Robocoin.

Havvy 12y ago
On IRC, somebody once put a bug bounty of 2BTC for a geometric problem. I fixed the bug in two hours (including the time it took to look up the geometry formulas...) and did receive the bitcoin. This was at the time that Bitcoin was trending $850 each. It seems to me though, that due to bitcoin's relative newness and grey market status, you're going to see a lot of scammers and bad businessmen related to it. It's high risk in that sense, and you need to do your research. Give it time, and the bad business practices will be weeded out, and stability will come. This is the pain of early adoption.
eric_bullington 12y ago
On the other hand, I've been into Bitcoin since early 2011, have made hundreds of purchases with Bitcoin, gotten made for major contract jobs in Bitcoin, paid other contractors in Bitcoin, and never been ripped off. You just have to exercise some caution and do your due diligence. Unfortunately, Bitcoin has attracted more than its fair share of scammers -- in part because the core community was at one time pretty naive -- but it's also full of honest people who are attracted to Bitcoin for ideological reasons, and fellow technophiles who are happy to engage in honest commerce with other people.
- knowaveragejoe 12y ago
  While that's all well and good, I don't think that will translate so well into the mass market. At least not for some time.
  - eric_bullington 12y ago
    That's OK. As long as there is a large enough population using Bitcoin to create a small economy, that's fine with me. Right now, I get paid in Bitcoin, and pay for about 40%-50% of my household expenses in Bitcoin (and increasing monthly). For people who are attracted to Bitcoin for ideological or technological reasons, mass adoption would be nice, but it's not as important to us as it is to the massive wave of "to the moon!" speculators who came in last fall.

everydaypanos 12y ago

1. Going public on this shows lack of common sense, since the guy there said that contract had 0 refunds in it... 2. Expecting to pay $25k and pressing a button and then making $2k per month for eternity is NOT wise.

probably_wrong 12y ago
Regarding point 1: a contract is an agreement between two or more parties. In this case, Robocoin agreed to deliver a working Bitcoin ATM, and Andrew and Rajiv agreed to pay a certain amount for it. Robocoin didn't do what they promised they would do, or did it badly. Therefore, A&R are not required to uphold their end of the deal - in fact, if they are willing to take the matter to court, they are also entitled to get a compensation for all the extra money they lost. So even though the contract specifies "no refunds", that contract was broken by Robocoin, and therefore A&R should indeed get their money back.
- spacemanmatt 12y ago
  I am often shocked when I hear people lean on that "it's in the contract" nonsense. State and federal law have always superseded contract law, or else people could overthrow the government by means of contracts. It's just a ridiculous notion to hold, as evidenced by the ridicule heaped on it here, reddit, and twitter.
spacemanmatt 12y ago
So investments are unwise because you might get burned? I don't think you can find traction for that view here.

everydaypanos 12y ago

runn1ng 12y ago

A Bitcoin - related company committing fraud and acting scammy? I am shocked.

tim333 12y ago

I'm curious if anyone has seen a working Robocoin ATM? Jordan says on Reddit there are "65 out an live in the world"

geobz123 12y ago

Thanks for sharing. That guy Jordan deserves to be brought in Justice.

lazyjones 12y ago

I have had some dealings with fraudulent merchants (while running a popular price comparison site and dealing with customer complaints, criminal charges against mervchants etc.) in the past 14 years and my gut feeling with this is that this Jordan has already spent your money on his expensive lifestyle. It's the repeated false promises and claims he makes in his e-mails that create this impression, for example the quick refund. A serious businessman only promises this if he can make absolutely sure that the customer will get it (and it doesn't matter that he wrote "we hope to ...", it's a clear message). I've also read Jordan's reddit posts, sounds fishy as hell.

lazyant 12y ago

google "translate robo"

pearjuice 12y ago

Meanwhile: Dorian Nakamoto - alleged Bitcoin founder - is trying to raise a fund because this whole Bitcoin entourage and goldrush has destroyed his personal life. Hopefully if Andrew gets a refund he will be so nice to donate a bit to The Dorian Nakamoto Legal Defense Fund. http://www.newsweeklied.com/ http://www.newsweeklied.com/

eli 12y ago
Kinda seems like more of an "attack fund" than a "defense fund." Also doesn't really seem to say how Dorian was harmed.

kreinba 12y ago

That is a really sad story...

AJ007 12y ago

This wouldn't be the only company selling Bitcoin related hardware that probably should not be in business: http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2014/09/ftcs-request-court-halts-bogus-bitcoin-mining-operation http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2014/09/ftcs-r... (Butterfly Labs)

smileysteve 12y ago

This type of experience is why I don't understand "No Chargeback" or "Replace the credit card" type marketing. If I purchase this with my credit card and don't get the product before the price goes down, I have the option to cancel the order or get the lower price. If the product gets stuck in RMA or support is not as promised, I can chargeback. The 'advantage' of bitcoin is that now I have to deal directly with the vendor, who is not my advocate.

josu 12y ago

Jeff Berwick, one of the founders of the project withdrew from it back in May 2013. https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2013/5/2/my-official-withdrawal-from-the-bitcoinatm-project.html?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2013/5/2/my-official-wi...

kyledrake 12y ago

I've helped work on Project Skyhook, which is a $1000 Bitcoin ATM: http://projectskyhook.com http://projectskyhook.com Orders ship within 2-3 weeks. Shipping to Canada is no problem, customs is no problem. Assembly is in Portland, Oregon, so it's a quick ship to Vancouver. We've shipped hundreds of units. Setup is completely on the owner's end. Owners don't need the company to configure the unit, and the company doesn't need to run servers for them. Skyhook ATMs use blockchain.com for the wallets (using accounts the owner creates independently), and the exchange price source is the owner's choice, all controlled through the interface. This isn't to avoid having a setup phase - it's to allow owners to have complete control over their money, because then it's a trustless system (the source code to the ATMs is open and auditable: https://github.com/projectskyhook https://github.com/projectskyhook). I'm astounded at the prices on some of these ATMs. For $25,000 they could have ordered 24 Skyhooks (a little padding for shipping, which I believe can be palleted to save money). Bitcoin ATMs shouldn't cost the down payment on a house, IMHO. Skyhook is also completely bootstrapped by the founders (no VCs) and a result of that (and careful burn rate management) is now profitable, despite the low price point. The cofounders have been using some of the money (and their free time) to help clean up and build out a new hacker/makerspace in Portland that's going to be awesome. Easily the best group of people I've ever had the privilege to work with. I wish more people approached startups this way. There's a real pride to making companies on your terms that you control, and succeeding at it. Startups shouldn't be about overvaluing your company and having Kid Rock do a rock concert in your back yard.

jboggan 12y ago
The physical security on units such as these, or the majority of newly manufactured Bitcoin ATMs, is a joke. There's a good reason to build a large, heavy safe into an ATM, and all but the very strongest and most expensive can be broken into trivially. Bitcoin ATMs are even worse than cash ATMs from this perspective because physical compromise of the machine potentially nets you private keys. Small/cheap units like this also don't support industry standard features like Mas locks or other one-time-combination locks to allow third party security and cash replenishment organizations to service them. [0] A used Mas lock (or its equivalent) will run you at least $500 and newer units are easily over $1,000 [1] I'm speaking as a former ATM technician. 0 - http://www.kaba-mas.com/kaba-brand/products/366024/cencon.html http://www.kaba-mas.com/kaba-brand/products/366024/cencon.ht... 1 - http://www.jmacsupply.com/Kaba_Mas_X09SRD00FZJEZ1A_p/KABA-MAS-X09SRD00FZJEZ1A.htm?gclid=CIzErPSCr8ECFaIF7AodmFMAgQ http://www.jmacsupply.com/Kaba_Mas_X09SRD00FZJEZ1A_p/KABA-MA...

jordanrobocoin 12y ago

Apology letter from Jordan: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_robocoin_ripoff_how_we_lost_25000/cla6b7d http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro...

slapresta 12y ago
Discussing this apology without discussing the Reddit comment it replaced only tells half the story: http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png http://i.imgur.com/WXyGPM3.png
rip747 12y ago
So you want a pat on the head or something for finally doing the right thing? Sorry kid, but by you letting the situation escalate to this point shows me that you have no place in the business world. I really hope your company sees how poorly you've handled this situation and removes you from it.
spacemanmatt 12y ago
A sorry-not-sorry post, which is later edited for Jordan's benefit, then apparently he posted an image of the wire transfer in progress and failed to redact the recipient's account details, despite trying! Would that all of theme were this blatant and easy to identify.

hatty 12y ago

Full refund processing. "Hey [omitted], http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_robocoin_ripoff_how_we_lost_25000/cla6b7d http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jakg4/the_great_ro... It was really poorly handled. I take full accountability." -Jordan

blt 12y ago

First warning sign: smiley faces and hashtags in Robocoin's initial email responses. I would expect nothing but professionalism from someone who just sold me a $20,000 product.

javajosh 12y ago
This stuck out for me, too. Jordan was far too chummy in his responses. This signals, "I want you to like me so that when I fuck up you will give me more slack." It's not genuine warmth, it's a cynical, sociopathic ploy to garner imaginary "friend credits" that can be traded for real money when need. (It actually reminds me of how mobile customer service call centers repeatedly, obnoxiously apologize, to the point where they seriously degrade the service. I would much rather a person help me than waste time apologizing to me.)

jafingi 12y ago

Wow, what a devastating story! Really feel sorry for you guys. I have retweeted your tweet. But let this be a reminder that you should never pay the full amount up front. Hope you will get in court with that smarmy Jordan Kelley.

tobiasSoftware 12y ago

Was just reading the reddit thread and Jordan posted a picture of a transfer of $25000 to Andrew. However the details were not blacked out properly, you could see the address easily and could probably figure out the account numbers given a bit of time. The picture has since been removed.

joshmn 12y ago

For things like this, I find great "relief" in using BananaTag (http://bananatag.com http://bananatag.com)

tyang 12y ago

Next time pay using a credit card. :)

tomaspollak 12y ago

funny thing: 'robo' in spanish actually means theft.