9 ms·

Time is a finite resource and even more precious for small/indie developers. Maybe they could write something to detect keyboard layouts (though I am not sure t

Time is a finite resource and even more precious for small/indie developers. Maybe they could write something to detect keyboard layouts (though I am not sure they could) or they could do what the other poster suggested and have configurable key layouts. The problem is every second working on something that really matters, to what, <1% of the population is something that you aren't working on that is more important. Not to mention the extra overhead of testing and maintaining that system. It might be a valid gripe with a AAA game dev but complaining about your fairly rare corner case is just picking nits.

rodgerd 12y ago
> The problem is every second working on something that really matters, to what, <1% of the population is something that you aren't working on that is more important It's fairly breathtaking chauvinism to assert that keyboard layouts are relevant to less thatn one percent of the population.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  Less than one percent of their audience, of course, not less than one percent of all computer users. Is it still chauvinism if the game was only written in English in the first place?
  - TillE 12y ago
    Almost every German gamer (PC games are a big deal here) is willing to play games in English. Almost none of them have QWERTY keyboards.
    - sliverstorm 12y ago
      I guess on the bright side there, to my knowledge Z & Y are not commonly used keys for PC games, and never as a primary key (like WASD). (I gather Germany is mostly QWERTZ)
      - lambda 12y ago
        Sure, but French keyboards are generally AZERTY, which breaks the WASD layout. Some countries also use QZERTY, also breaking the WASD layout.
      - anonymoushn 12y ago
        In platformers and shmups, it's common for arrows, lshift, z, x, and maybe c to be the only buttons used to control the character. Voxatron, for example, defaulted to this control scheme, but that game has very configurable controls.
        sliverstorm 12y ago
        Ah, goes to show what kind of games I don't play much of.
      - doodpants 12y ago
        What bugs me is that game developers seem to have standardized on WASD, whereas ESDF is more natural for those who touch type.
  - rodgerd 12y ago
    This may surprise you, but there are people who speak more than one language in the world, and the keyboards on their PCs are set up for only one of them.
    - babuskov 12y ago
      Most of the people I know (myself included) who speak multiple languages have multiple keyboard settings installed in their OS. The problem is that game API's often map keys to hardware keys and not to the characters that OS sends them. Still, every serious game (be it indie or not) should allow you to rebind the keys. Unless it's a quick-hack project there is no excuse to skip on that. I don't buy the "every second counts" argument at all. If you can't spare time to implement the key binding inside the game, let the user edit a config file or something similar.
      - bluerobotcat 12y ago
        I'm curious. Might it be that the multiple languages you're thinking of use different alphabets? I ask because that's (in a way) a much simpler situation to deal with. If you're dealing with different alphabets then you will notice from the first keypress if you need to change the keyboard layout. In contrast, when switching between AZERTY and QWERTY, you might not notice that you're using the wrong keyboard layout until you have finished typing two sentences with three silly typos. A similar problem occurs on mobile operating systems if you use the same layout for different languages but have autocorrect turn off. You might finish two sentences and notice the spellchecker 'corrected' five words. This is because there is no visual indication as to what language your keyboard is set to (on iPhone the language is displayed only for about two seconds after you switch keyboards).
        babuskov 12y ago
        I'm using US English and Serbian (Latin) keyboard all the time. The difference is that US one has W,Q,X and Y, and the Serbian one has Š,Č,Ć,Đ and Ž. Except for Z and Y all other characters have the same position (QUERTY vs QUERTZ). I'm also using Hungarian which is also Latin and has Ő,Ú,É,Á and Ű. The other keys are the same. Since I have three quite similar layouts, I always have to be careful which one is currently active. And I'm also using Serbian Cyrillic which is completely different alphabeth.
keyle 12y ago
I am baffled by your 1%. Just lookup AZERTY.
- dbdr 12y ago
  Indeed. There are several hundred millions of people living in parts of Europe alone with non QWERTY layouts, based on the map at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY
ANTSANTS 12y ago
That 1% figure is hilariously wrong, but I agree with your point. Indie game dev is hard. If you "waste" too much time early on doing "the right thing" for tasks that can wait like localization, your game might not make it off the ground. So most accomplished English-speaking indie devs assume English and QWERTY layout to start because it's one less thing to think about while you're trying to get a barebones game running. The less defensible outcome is when the QWERTY assumption remains 'til the end, and the devs just want to ship the damn thing already, so the proper alternate keyboard layout/non-360 controller/etc. support gets cut and the burden is pushed onto the users. This sucks, but is somewhat defensible because if you are a gamer in France or whatever, you are probably used to needing to switch your keyboard layout or rebind your keys in the same way that English players of Japanese PC games are used to needing to use a Japanese locale, or that people with non-360 controllers are used to needing to use an XInput wrapper: we hate it, but we've already dealt with the problem once, so doing it again isn't a big deal.
- clarry 12y ago
  > we hate it, but we've already dealt with the problem once, so doing it again isn't a big deal Some of us hate it and just don't play these player-hostile games. I think that games that are meant to be played will respect the player and treat her dearly. Games that exist just for the buck though... oh well.
  - ANTSANTS 12y ago
    Would you really not play if they give you the option to rebind keys? I've jumped through many worse hoops trying to play Japanese games that I was under no delusions of being the target audience for.
    - clarry 12y ago
      If they don't give me the option to rebind keys... I used to jump through hoops myself. For example, I rebound keys in some older Touhous by disassembling and modifying the binary. These days I just can't be bothered. There are more games than I could play in a lifetime, so I have plenty to choose from. And if/when game developers treat me like shit (whether it be with DRM or something else), I'm principled against playing their game. "Go away, you're not our target audience, we don't care about you." I try to focus the little time I have on games whose authors really want everyone to play and enjoy. The more effort they put into that, the more attention they deserve. If they respect my freedom, that's better still. And that is my idea of humble. I hate how the word is used to market a bundle of games on sale... Truly caring about the player is one field where the indie scene could really shine, compared to the big corps who mass-produce big titles for the biggest market. Unfortunately even the indies seem to have other priorities.

rodgerd 12y ago

> The problem is every second working on something that really matters, to what, <1% of the population is something that you aren't working on that is more important It's fairly breathtaking chauvinism to assert that keyboard layouts are relevant to less thatn one percent of the population.

sliverstorm 12y ago
Less than one percent of their audience, of course, not less than one percent of all computer users. Is it still chauvinism if the game was only written in English in the first place?
- TillE 12y ago
  Almost every German gamer (PC games are a big deal here) is willing to play games in English. Almost none of them have QWERTY keyboards.
  - sliverstorm 12y ago
    I guess on the bright side there, to my knowledge Z & Y are not commonly used keys for PC games, and never as a primary key (like WASD). (I gather Germany is mostly QWERTZ)
    - lambda 12y ago
      Sure, but French keyboards are generally AZERTY, which breaks the WASD layout. Some countries also use QZERTY, also breaking the WASD layout.
    - anonymoushn 12y ago
      In platformers and shmups, it's common for arrows, lshift, z, x, and maybe c to be the only buttons used to control the character. Voxatron, for example, defaulted to this control scheme, but that game has very configurable controls.
      - sliverstorm 12y ago
        Ah, goes to show what kind of games I don't play much of.
    - doodpants 12y ago
      What bugs me is that game developers seem to have standardized on WASD, whereas ESDF is more natural for those who touch type.
- rodgerd 12y ago
  This may surprise you, but there are people who speak more than one language in the world, and the keyboards on their PCs are set up for only one of them.
  - babuskov 12y ago
    Most of the people I know (myself included) who speak multiple languages have multiple keyboard settings installed in their OS. The problem is that game API's often map keys to hardware keys and not to the characters that OS sends them. Still, every serious game (be it indie or not) should allow you to rebind the keys. Unless it's a quick-hack project there is no excuse to skip on that. I don't buy the "every second counts" argument at all. If you can't spare time to implement the key binding inside the game, let the user edit a config file or something similar.
    - bluerobotcat 12y ago
      I'm curious. Might it be that the multiple languages you're thinking of use different alphabets? I ask because that's (in a way) a much simpler situation to deal with. If you're dealing with different alphabets then you will notice from the first keypress if you need to change the keyboard layout. In contrast, when switching between AZERTY and QWERTY, you might not notice that you're using the wrong keyboard layout until you have finished typing two sentences with three silly typos. A similar problem occurs on mobile operating systems if you use the same layout for different languages but have autocorrect turn off. You might finish two sentences and notice the spellchecker 'corrected' five words. This is because there is no visual indication as to what language your keyboard is set to (on iPhone the language is displayed only for about two seconds after you switch keyboards).
      - babuskov 12y ago
        I'm using US English and Serbian (Latin) keyboard all the time. The difference is that US one has W,Q,X and Y, and the Serbian one has Š,Č,Ć,Đ and Ž. Except for Z and Y all other characters have the same position (QUERTY vs QUERTZ). I'm also using Hungarian which is also Latin and has Ő,Ú,É,Á and Ű. The other keys are the same. Since I have three quite similar layouts, I always have to be careful which one is currently active. And I'm also using Serbian Cyrillic which is completely different alphabeth.

keyle 12y ago

I am baffled by your 1%. Just lookup AZERTY.

dbdr 12y ago
Indeed. There are several hundred millions of people living in parts of Europe alone with non QWERTY layouts, based on the map at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY

ANTSANTS 12y ago

That 1% figure is hilariously wrong, but I agree with your point. Indie game dev is hard. If you "waste" too much time early on doing "the right thing" for tasks that can wait like localization, your game might not make it off the ground. So most accomplished English-speaking indie devs assume English and QWERTY layout to start because it's one less thing to think about while you're trying to get a barebones game running. The less defensible outcome is when the QWERTY assumption remains 'til the end, and the devs just want to ship the damn thing already, so the proper alternate keyboard layout/non-360 controller/etc. support gets cut and the burden is pushed onto the users. This sucks, but is somewhat defensible because if you are a gamer in France or whatever, you are probably used to needing to switch your keyboard layout or rebind your keys in the same way that English players of Japanese PC games are used to needing to use a Japanese locale, or that people with non-360 controllers are used to needing to use an XInput wrapper: we hate it, but we've already dealt with the problem once, so doing it again isn't a big deal.

clarry 12y ago
> we hate it, but we've already dealt with the problem once, so doing it again isn't a big deal Some of us hate it and just don't play these player-hostile games. I think that games that are meant to be played will respect the player and treat her dearly. Games that exist just for the buck though... oh well.
- ANTSANTS 12y ago
  Would you really not play if they give you the option to rebind keys? I've jumped through many worse hoops trying to play Japanese games that I was under no delusions of being the target audience for.
  - clarry 12y ago
    If they don't give me the option to rebind keys... I used to jump through hoops myself. For example, I rebound keys in some older Touhous by disassembling and modifying the binary. These days I just can't be bothered. There are more games than I could play in a lifetime, so I have plenty to choose from. And if/when game developers treat me like shit (whether it be with DRM or something else), I'm principled against playing their game. "Go away, you're not our target audience, we don't care about you." I try to focus the little time I have on games whose authors really want everyone to play and enjoy. The more effort they put into that, the more attention they deserve. If they respect my freedom, that's better still. And that is my idea of humble. I hate how the word is used to market a bundle of games on sale... Truly caring about the player is one field where the indie scene could really shine, compared to the big corps who mass-produce big titles for the biggest market. Unfortunately even the indies seem to have other priorities.