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The article has a pretty obvious slant in one direction. A lot of times small businesses will require this of their entry level workers not because they are afr

The article has a pretty obvious slant in one direction. A lot of times small businesses will require this of their entry level workers not because they are afraid of their workers going to a competitor, but don't want their employees to go and start a competing business, which in the small business world is a very real risk. It costs much less to start a small business, and in the local market many of these small businesses operate in, a new competitor can take away a big chunk of an already small pie. If that competitor did so by stealing your business practices, then congrats, you are putting yourself out of business. I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong or right, but it's the other side of the story the NYT didn't discuss. Ironically, I worked for JJ in college, and never once did this ever concern me. This may be my personal bias, but I think the NYT is trying to make mountains out of molehills here. There are much bigger contributing factors to low wages for fast food restaurant workers, such as illegal immigrants depressing wages, limited ability for workers to organize, and perverse tax incentives that prevent profits from working their way down the economic ladder. As a side note, JJ pays better than a vast majority of fast food restaurant chains. Their in-shop workers are paid above minimum wage (average around $8.50), and it's fairly easy to move into a delivery driver position where you can earn $25/hr on Fridays and Saturday nights.

lotsofmangos 12y ago
"The article has a pretty obvious slant in one direction." I noticed there's a signpost pointing down that way as well. There's some writing on it saying 'Sanity'. You may want to stroll that way a little.
- DanBC 12y ago
  42 minutes and your direct personal attack - which also contains stigmatising language about mental health - is not grey. :-/
  - owenmarshall 12y ago
    I'll step up to defend lotsofmangos: that's a particularly uncharitable reading of the comment. I took it to mean "your opinion is ludicrous; a person getting paid $8.50 an hour to flip burgers or assemble sandwiches lacks the access to capital required to start a restaurant". That's absolutely correct, and not at all a direct personal attack. (though I'd agree that the choice of "sanity" is unfortunate)
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      Thank you for that. I have taken a bit of a step back to have a think if I am maybe a bit too combative in my language sometimes. Personally, as someone who actually has occasional mental health issues, I think it is fine to question someone's sanity if they come out with ridiculous ideas. If we are banned from saying that someone is being crazy, then that is not going to help anyone, least of all the insane. edit - my other comment that did get greyed out, was admittedly far more of a personal attack, which was based on me asking myself who would suggest such a thing if they were not crazy, and I decided that the best candidate was the creatures from "They Live", hence the comment about the sunglasses. This was poorly judged, though I do not know if it became greyed out due to the insulting nature, or purely because it was one comedy sci-fi reference too many.
tptacek 12y ago
I am confused by what appears to be an assertion that Jimmy John's has a legitimate concern that their minimum-wage-earning food service employees might leave to start a competing national sandwich chain.
- benjohnson 12y ago
  Devil's Advocate: It's certain that Jimmy John's line-worker can't start a 2,000 store chain, but they could run off with some of the catering business.
  - bsbechtel 12y ago
    Jimmy John's competes with every local restaurant in every local market where it operates. Someone can easily start a local business that cuts into the market share of one of its local stores, although yes, it's very unlikely that restaurant is going to overtake Jimmy John's nationally. And yes, many local businesses, especially restaurant businesses, are started by former employees who enter a field to get training, but one day want to open their own business. It's obvious many of the comments (and my downvotes) here are from individuals who have never ran, nor worked in, a business that operates and competes on a local scale.
    - johnward 12y ago
      I didn't up or downvote you but from my perspective I don't feel that employers deserve more protections. If I want to run off with the secret recipe it's already protected by IP laws. I think it should be illegal for an employer to limit your future employment in any way. I'm not saying the restaurant industry isn't competitive, it's probably one of the most competitive I can think of, but limiting employees rights is not the right way to handle that.
      - bsbechtel 12y ago
        At JJ, it was more about operational secrets that can't be protected by law. However, I mentioned in my original post that I don't necessarily think it's right or wrong, it's just why JJ does it. I generally agree with you that limiting future employment is generally not a good thing, although I'm not convinced getting rid of non-competes in minimum wage jobs would materially affect wages. At most, it might prevent someone from taking a manager position at Subway, but I don't think it is going to raise the overall wages of restaurant workers.
owenmarshall 12y ago
> I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong or right, but it's the other side of the story the NYT didn't discuss. Probably because it's a really dumb side to the story? An individual Jimmy Johns franchise has to worry about one of their sandwich assemblers starting their own deli as much as I have to worry about catching ebola.
pyrocat 12y ago
"It costs much less to start a small business" Ok, I'll bite. In what way does starting a small business "cost less"? Less than what? Have you ever tried to get a loan to start a retail restaurant? It's incredibly difficult to get the funding necessary, especially in an industry with such low margins.
- bsbechtel 12y ago
  Retail fast food restaurant - <$50,000 A food truck - <$20,000 Home-based service business - <$5,000 All these businesses can be started with either 1) personal savings, 2) a family and friends loan, or 3) credit cards. They all also have the advantage of generating cash from day 1, vs a tech startup which can have substantial development time.
  - pyrocat 12y ago
    You're very out of touch with the life of a minimum wage worker. I'm not sure what I can do to fix that, but maybe just step back and think about who you're defending and why.
    - bsbechtel 12y ago
      What do you do for a living? I run a business that competes with fast food franchises for low wage labor. A great majority of our employees aren't poor, or struggling to get by, but college kids who are looking to make a little extra cash and get some work experience. A small handful are children of parents who have millions in the bank, and have no need to work other than it's something to do, and maybe to gain some necessary life skills. A number of them also wish to start their own small business one day (I always ask, because I would rather convince the ones who do to start a franchise for us). We have them sign a non-compete because a large portion of our competitive edge comes from operational efficiencies that our competitors can't touch, but aren't necessarily exclusive or proprietary. We also tripled in growth in the past year, and pay our employees higher wages than virtually any alternative job they could acquire elsewhere. The risk that one of these employees would try to start a competing business is very real, and someone who is resourceful enough to do so is also probably resourceful enough to pose a significant threat to our business. Yes, many of the employees we hire probably won't ever try to do this, with or without the non-compete, but all it takes is one employee who wishes to do so and has the financial backing to make it happen to significantly hurt our business. I appreciate your judgement on my knowledge of the life of a minimum wage worker. Yes, there are many who are struggling to get by, this is a very real problem that needs to be fixed. However, generalizing the skill set and struggles of a few to an entire wage class of labor is absurd. You're talking about millions of individuals in just as many different live situations across thousands of local markets. I would advise you to rethink your assessment of the life of a minimum wage worker. You might want to add a little complexity and depth to your profile of the minimum wage worker.
joezydeco 12y ago
Let's not fool ourselves. A minimum-wage worker has hardly the resources, knowledge, and time to start a business. Are the non-competes coming from the corporate arm (who potentially has a secret formula to lose, but again lets not kid ourselves), or is the non-compete coming from the local franchise owner? The more likely reason is because JJ's and/or the franchisee know that their line workers can and frequently do hop jobs over small things like consistency of hours, a manager they don't get along with, or a $0.25 increase in pay. Lost manpower and retraining hurts the store's bottom line. I was just in a Chipotle last night, standing behind a Starbucks worker taking a break from the shop next door. The SBux worker and the Chipotle line staff instantly started an exchange over who they knew was hiring, what the conditions were like at their respective stores, and what the pay was. Everyone keeps their ear to the ground these days.
sequoia 12y ago
Absolutely. I'm sure the noncompete is the only thing saving JJ's from having their secret sandwich formula stolen by the kid they pay $8/hr. If not for that NCA she'd probably cross the street and open her own "2,000-location sandwich chain" & put JJ's out of business. Thank goodness for this wholly appropriate, not at all exploitative use of NC agreements and darn that socialist newspaper!!
deleted 12y ago
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- bsbechtel 12y ago
  http://www.quora.com/What-does-it-feel-like-to-be-intelligent-but-take-blue-collar-jobs http://www.quora.com/What-does-it-feel-like-to-be-intelligen...
  - VLM 12y ago
    The story from the flight attendant in your link reminds me of my time in the Army Reserves. A true cross section of humanity, from my staff sgt with a degree in philosophy and my civil engineer sgt to some total meatheads, and everything in between, in a big bell curve. Variation in general is immensely higher in blue collar, or the pressure to aggressively conform is much higher in white collar, however you want to phrase it. Blue collar people are just people, but the white collar folks have a peculiar aspiration requiring quite a bit of faking and leads to impostor syndrome and things like that.
298219640 12y ago
Yes, competition is a real risk in starting a business - welcome to the free market! Unless, of course, you're a JJ's employee that has signed a non-compete ; - )
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
x0x0 12y ago
If you think a contract keeping a fast food worker from working for another fast food chain for a year is reasonable, you're a tool. Hell, a side benefit for many (most?) of the posters on this site is CA doesn't allow this for software engineers, who make a hell of a lot more money and have far more insight into a business than someone making a sandwich. (What's the proprietary business practice -- fucking toasting the bread?) I'd recommend discovering why you think shitting down is a valid way to treat people less fortunate than you in life.
moron4hire 12y ago
That's assuming there are innovative ways to run a fucking sandwich shop.

lotsofmangos 12y ago

"The article has a pretty obvious slant in one direction." I noticed there's a signpost pointing down that way as well. There's some writing on it saying 'Sanity'. You may want to stroll that way a little.

DanBC 12y ago
42 minutes and your direct personal attack - which also contains stigmatising language about mental health - is not grey. :-/
- owenmarshall 12y ago
  I'll step up to defend lotsofmangos: that's a particularly uncharitable reading of the comment. I took it to mean "your opinion is ludicrous; a person getting paid $8.50 an hour to flip burgers or assemble sandwiches lacks the access to capital required to start a restaurant". That's absolutely correct, and not at all a direct personal attack. (though I'd agree that the choice of "sanity" is unfortunate)
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    Thank you for that. I have taken a bit of a step back to have a think if I am maybe a bit too combative in my language sometimes. Personally, as someone who actually has occasional mental health issues, I think it is fine to question someone's sanity if they come out with ridiculous ideas. If we are banned from saying that someone is being crazy, then that is not going to help anyone, least of all the insane. edit - my other comment that did get greyed out, was admittedly far more of a personal attack, which was based on me asking myself who would suggest such a thing if they were not crazy, and I decided that the best candidate was the creatures from "They Live", hence the comment about the sunglasses. This was poorly judged, though I do not know if it became greyed out due to the insulting nature, or purely because it was one comedy sci-fi reference too many.

tptacek 12y ago

I am confused by what appears to be an assertion that Jimmy John's has a legitimate concern that their minimum-wage-earning food service employees might leave to start a competing national sandwich chain.

benjohnson 12y ago
Devil's Advocate: It's certain that Jimmy John's line-worker can't start a 2,000 store chain, but they could run off with some of the catering business.
- bsbechtel 12y ago
  Jimmy John's competes with every local restaurant in every local market where it operates. Someone can easily start a local business that cuts into the market share of one of its local stores, although yes, it's very unlikely that restaurant is going to overtake Jimmy John's nationally. And yes, many local businesses, especially restaurant businesses, are started by former employees who enter a field to get training, but one day want to open their own business. It's obvious many of the comments (and my downvotes) here are from individuals who have never ran, nor worked in, a business that operates and competes on a local scale.
  - johnward 12y ago
    I didn't up or downvote you but from my perspective I don't feel that employers deserve more protections. If I want to run off with the secret recipe it's already protected by IP laws. I think it should be illegal for an employer to limit your future employment in any way. I'm not saying the restaurant industry isn't competitive, it's probably one of the most competitive I can think of, but limiting employees rights is not the right way to handle that.
    - bsbechtel 12y ago
      At JJ, it was more about operational secrets that can't be protected by law. However, I mentioned in my original post that I don't necessarily think it's right or wrong, it's just why JJ does it. I generally agree with you that limiting future employment is generally not a good thing, although I'm not convinced getting rid of non-competes in minimum wage jobs would materially affect wages. At most, it might prevent someone from taking a manager position at Subway, but I don't think it is going to raise the overall wages of restaurant workers.

owenmarshall 12y ago

> I'm not necessarily saying this is wrong or right, but it's the other side of the story the NYT didn't discuss. Probably because it's a really dumb side to the story? An individual Jimmy Johns franchise has to worry about one of their sandwich assemblers starting their own deli as much as I have to worry about catching ebola.

pyrocat 12y ago

"It costs much less to start a small business" Ok, I'll bite. In what way does starting a small business "cost less"? Less than what? Have you ever tried to get a loan to start a retail restaurant? It's incredibly difficult to get the funding necessary, especially in an industry with such low margins.

bsbechtel 12y ago
Retail fast food restaurant - <$50,000 A food truck - <$20,000 Home-based service business - <$5,000 All these businesses can be started with either 1) personal savings, 2) a family and friends loan, or 3) credit cards. They all also have the advantage of generating cash from day 1, vs a tech startup which can have substantial development time.
- pyrocat 12y ago
  You're very out of touch with the life of a minimum wage worker. I'm not sure what I can do to fix that, but maybe just step back and think about who you're defending and why.
  - bsbechtel 12y ago
    What do you do for a living? I run a business that competes with fast food franchises for low wage labor. A great majority of our employees aren't poor, or struggling to get by, but college kids who are looking to make a little extra cash and get some work experience. A small handful are children of parents who have millions in the bank, and have no need to work other than it's something to do, and maybe to gain some necessary life skills. A number of them also wish to start their own small business one day (I always ask, because I would rather convince the ones who do to start a franchise for us). We have them sign a non-compete because a large portion of our competitive edge comes from operational efficiencies that our competitors can't touch, but aren't necessarily exclusive or proprietary. We also tripled in growth in the past year, and pay our employees higher wages than virtually any alternative job they could acquire elsewhere. The risk that one of these employees would try to start a competing business is very real, and someone who is resourceful enough to do so is also probably resourceful enough to pose a significant threat to our business. Yes, many of the employees we hire probably won't ever try to do this, with or without the non-compete, but all it takes is one employee who wishes to do so and has the financial backing to make it happen to significantly hurt our business. I appreciate your judgement on my knowledge of the life of a minimum wage worker. Yes, there are many who are struggling to get by, this is a very real problem that needs to be fixed. However, generalizing the skill set and struggles of a few to an entire wage class of labor is absurd. You're talking about millions of individuals in just as many different live situations across thousands of local markets. I would advise you to rethink your assessment of the life of a minimum wage worker. You might want to add a little complexity and depth to your profile of the minimum wage worker.

joezydeco 12y ago

Let's not fool ourselves. A minimum-wage worker has hardly the resources, knowledge, and time to start a business. Are the non-competes coming from the corporate arm (who potentially has a secret formula to lose, but again lets not kid ourselves), or is the non-compete coming from the local franchise owner? The more likely reason is because JJ's and/or the franchisee know that their line workers can and frequently do hop jobs over small things like consistency of hours, a manager they don't get along with, or a $0.25 increase in pay. Lost manpower and retraining hurts the store's bottom line. I was just in a Chipotle last night, standing behind a Starbucks worker taking a break from the shop next door. The SBux worker and the Chipotle line staff instantly started an exchange over who they knew was hiring, what the conditions were like at their respective stores, and what the pay was. Everyone keeps their ear to the ground these days.

sequoia 12y ago

Absolutely. I'm sure the noncompete is the only thing saving JJ's from having their secret sandwich formula stolen by the kid they pay $8/hr. If not for that NCA she'd probably cross the street and open her own "2,000-location sandwich chain" & put JJ's out of business. Thank goodness for this wholly appropriate, not at all exploitative use of NC agreements and darn that socialist newspaper!!

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

bsbechtel 12y ago
http://www.quora.com/What-does-it-feel-like-to-be-intelligent-but-take-blue-collar-jobs http://www.quora.com/What-does-it-feel-like-to-be-intelligen...
- VLM 12y ago
  The story from the flight attendant in your link reminds me of my time in the Army Reserves. A true cross section of humanity, from my staff sgt with a degree in philosophy and my civil engineer sgt to some total meatheads, and everything in between, in a big bell curve. Variation in general is immensely higher in blue collar, or the pressure to aggressively conform is much higher in white collar, however you want to phrase it. Blue collar people are just people, but the white collar folks have a peculiar aspiration requiring quite a bit of faking and leads to impostor syndrome and things like that.

298219640 12y ago

Yes, competition is a real risk in starting a business - welcome to the free market! Unless, of course, you're a JJ's employee that has signed a non-compete ; - )

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

x0x0 12y ago

If you think a contract keeping a fast food worker from working for another fast food chain for a year is reasonable, you're a tool. Hell, a side benefit for many (most?) of the posters on this site is CA doesn't allow this for software engineers, who make a hell of a lot more money and have far more insight into a business than someone making a sandwich. (What's the proprietary business practice -- fucking toasting the bread?) I'd recommend discovering why you think shitting down is a valid way to treat people less fortunate than you in life.

moron4hire 12y ago

That's assuming there are innovative ways to run a fucking sandwich shop.