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"So I'm not sure that religion makes a marriage stronger, it just places a higher degree of shame and stigma on divorce." But perhaps any social pressure that

by smoyer 12y ago

"So I'm not sure that religion makes a marriage stronger, it just places a higher degree of shame and stigma on divorce." But perhaps any social pressure that encourages marriage would do the same thing? I've got quite a few friends that have had arranged marriages - they marry strangers and work to build a happy marriage from it because their families expect it. On the other hand, "staying in a bad marriage" is a misnomer - there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants. When one more both of the partners refuse to work towards a better marriage, it's practically impossible to make that marriage last.

Xcelerate 12y ago
> there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants Exactly. See, I never worry about myself being selfish, but my biggest fear is that I will get married to someone who just quits caring about me or who "gets bored" (I can't stand that phrase) and leaves me.
- freditup 12y ago
  Not to be a jerk, but if you never worry about yourself being selfish, there's a good chance you're missing something about yourself. I haven't met a human in all my days who has no unnecessary self-centeredness! Going into a marriage completely confident of your own dedication while questioning your partner's won't end well in my opinion. That being said, I've never met you and have no idea who you are, so don't take this too seriously, just some random advice
  - Xcelerate 12y ago
    Sorry, my phrasing was off there. Kind of tired this morning. What I meant is that I don't worry about myself "getting bored". In other words, I would keep working at a marriage rather than abandon it just because I was tired of it. I'm sure I have selfish moments, but the goal is to minimize how many of them I have!
    - freditup 12y ago
      Ah gothcya, sorry if I came across unnecessarily aggressive or self-righteous. Hope that if you do get married, you and your spouse have such admirable commitment to each other! And I hope the same for myself haha, I'm sure it's one heck of a challenge
- smoyer 12y ago
  I don't like the "gets bored" phrase either ... it's right up there with "he/she changed" (which is a minor variation on "I thought I could changed him/her). "People don't change" is kind of a funny phrase too - there's some truth in it, but I'm certainly not the same person I was when I married over twenty-seven years ago. My wife has changed too - we're not young anymore and yet our love (and devotion) to each other is more multi-faceted because we love who we were together as well as who we are now together. One piece of advice for the nerds out there ... don't stop doing the things you did when you were wooing him/her. It's easy to say "I've caught him/her" and figure that's the end of the project. Just like in software development, at least 80% of the work is maintenance after release/marriage.
  - pdpi 12y ago
    Me and my wife often say about our marriage that neither of us believes in Happily Ever After. There's no such thing as a point at which you stop having to work on the relationship.
    - smoyer 12y ago
      Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic but I'd rather say "Let's work to build our happily-ever-after". Same idea from the positive angle.
      - pdpi 12y ago
        The point is that there is no happily ever after because "Happily ever after" is how the story ends, and this story hasn't ended.
  - tjradcliffe 12y ago
    People change. Sometimes dramatically and sometimes as a result of trauma. I hope it never happens to you or anyone around you, but it does happen and marriages fail because of it. I do agree that the phrase gets over-used, but I also acknowledge that it describes a legitimate phenomenon. And people fail, sometimes avoidably, sometimes not. We are rarely tested to our breaking point, and it's easy to be smug when we see others fail, thinking we could have succeeded where they did not. The tendency to believe that anyone who has failed is "making excuses" is understandable, but one of the great things about maker culture is the way it embraces failure: it recognizes that we all can stretch ourselves too far and that there are circumstances where no physically conceivable amount of effort could have created success. Under such circumstances it's important to fail gracefully, not to deny the possibility of or responsibility for failure. I think this happens a lot in divorce: people blame their partner because they aren't willing to say, "I have failed", and that creates a huge amount of pain and divisiveness, and even worse, it makes lawyers rich. Failure is always an option. We know this as makers, hackers and engineers. It isn't simply a matter of "trying harder". Some problems cannot be solved under the constraints we are given, and when that happens we have failed, as surely as a girder that has buckled under an excessive load. This conundrum is sometimes known as "the human condition": http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_strain.htm http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_strain.htm
shawnz 12y ago
> there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants. I think this is a pretty bold statement. Is it not possible that two people might just never be able to get along with each other, no matter how hard they try?
- smoyer 12y ago
  "I think this is a pretty bold statement" And I'm going to stand by it - I actually believe the statistics presented in the parent post and, would those two people (who "just might never be able to get along with each other") have discovered their incompatibility if they'd dated for more than a couple years?
  - shawnz 12y ago
    > would those two people have discovered their incompatibility if they'd dated for more than a couple years? Of course they would. But we were discussing arranged and religiously motivated marriages, where that opportunity might not be afforded. Is there still "no such thing as a bad marriage" even when you "marry strangers"?
    - smoyer 12y ago
      I don't think we were discussing "religiously motivated" marriages but rather that a shared religion (presumably one that both participants had before the marriage) was an additional social pressure "like" arranged marriages. In any case, I think that social pressure can be a pretty strong force and that it tends to counteract the sort of selfishness that leads to a "bad marriage". Of course bad marriages will statistically happen but I don't think you can claim the huge number of divorces we're seeing are all "bad marriages" - my premise is that many could be cured if both participants cared to work a bit.
      - trendroid 12y ago
        >both participants cared to work a bit. How do we measure whether the amount of caring done was enough or not? Considering it varies based on personalities and other convincing capabilities of a partner, how do we know for sure apart from just getting information from the partners themselves who say that they tried a lot to make it work. Its important to remember that there is lot of suffering involved when one of the partner keeps working due to societal pressure while the other continues to mistreat them. This is more prevalent in developing countries like India and China. There is only so much a person can try on their own(they cant stand shaming so dont share oppression with other family)
themartorana 12y ago
> there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants This is absurd. It's constructed of a series of suppositions, only a few of which I'll address. First is that people are static. This simply isn't true. We all know that we all change - not just in age, wisdom, and so on, but in tastes, politics, religious dedication, and the lines we draw between wrong and right, just to name a few. In just these ways, people can grow apart. The distance between these changes can, in fact, cause "irreconcilable differences." Sometimes these changes are brought about by dramatic stress events, from the death of a child to major swings in financial stability. The way in which these events change the unwilling participants can again lead to incompatibility where once there was compatibility. But worst is the idea that if people just "work on it" they can overcome anything. Sometimes overcoming growing apart - be it over time or rather quickly - is best done by removing yourself from a situation that is no longer positive, and has little ability to become positive again. This is where I find religion quite often inserts itself negatively. While I agree with a poster above that regular attendance at religious gatherings does often help a couple share a support network, share common beliefs and similar circles of friends, etc., religion often tells you only divorce or failed marriage is an abomination, and a personal failure requiring lifetime penance. It then follows by labeling that person as an outcast, no longer worthy of the community they had once belonged to. These are just a few reasons (not to mention physical/substance abuse, and so on) that marriages can fail without it being personal failure. Your assertion does nothing but pile on further stigma to those who have gone through divorce. No one wants their marriage to fail, but when it does, it isn't always personal failure that requires additional shaming from outsiders.
- jasonparker 12y ago
  Gotta disagree with you: marriage is a contract, forsaking all others, so long as you both shall live. Divorce means your word is worthless, and that your own wants are more important than your word. It IS a personal failure, but go ahead, rationalize all you want.
  - ska 12y ago
    One part of what marriage is, is a contract between two people. But remember that you don't get to decide the terms of that contract for them.
king_jester 12y ago
> On the other hand, "staying in a bad marriage" is a misnomer - there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants. When one more both of the partners refuse to work towards a better marriage, it's practically impossible to make that marriage last. Uh, there are totally such things as a bad marriage. If, say, your spouse became abusive over time from the perspective of the abused spouse it most certainly a bad marriage. Marriage isn't a one time negotiation and you are stuck with whatever happens after that. Relationships require constant work and growth over time. If two people find themselves in a place where that relationship isn't working for them and even is outright harmful to their well being, they have all rights to end that relationship.

by smoyer 12y ago

Xcelerate 12y ago

> there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants Exactly. See, I never worry about myself being selfish, but my biggest fear is that I will get married to someone who just quits caring about me or who "gets bored" (I can't stand that phrase) and leaves me.

freditup 12y ago
Not to be a jerk, but if you never worry about yourself being selfish, there's a good chance you're missing something about yourself. I haven't met a human in all my days who has no unnecessary self-centeredness! Going into a marriage completely confident of your own dedication while questioning your partner's won't end well in my opinion. That being said, I've never met you and have no idea who you are, so don't take this too seriously, just some random advice
- Xcelerate 12y ago
  Sorry, my phrasing was off there. Kind of tired this morning. What I meant is that I don't worry about myself "getting bored". In other words, I would keep working at a marriage rather than abandon it just because I was tired of it. I'm sure I have selfish moments, but the goal is to minimize how many of them I have!
  - freditup 12y ago
    Ah gothcya, sorry if I came across unnecessarily aggressive or self-righteous. Hope that if you do get married, you and your spouse have such admirable commitment to each other! And I hope the same for myself haha, I'm sure it's one heck of a challenge
smoyer 12y ago
I don't like the "gets bored" phrase either ... it's right up there with "he/she changed" (which is a minor variation on "I thought I could changed him/her). "People don't change" is kind of a funny phrase too - there's some truth in it, but I'm certainly not the same person I was when I married over twenty-seven years ago. My wife has changed too - we're not young anymore and yet our love (and devotion) to each other is more multi-faceted because we love who we were together as well as who we are now together. One piece of advice for the nerds out there ... don't stop doing the things you did when you were wooing him/her. It's easy to say "I've caught him/her" and figure that's the end of the project. Just like in software development, at least 80% of the work is maintenance after release/marriage.
- pdpi 12y ago
  Me and my wife often say about our marriage that neither of us believes in Happily Ever After. There's no such thing as a point at which you stop having to work on the relationship.
  - smoyer 12y ago
    Maybe I'm just a hopeless romantic but I'd rather say "Let's work to build our happily-ever-after". Same idea from the positive angle.
    - pdpi 12y ago
      The point is that there is no happily ever after because "Happily ever after" is how the story ends, and this story hasn't ended.
- tjradcliffe 12y ago
  People change. Sometimes dramatically and sometimes as a result of trauma. I hope it never happens to you or anyone around you, but it does happen and marriages fail because of it. I do agree that the phrase gets over-used, but I also acknowledge that it describes a legitimate phenomenon. And people fail, sometimes avoidably, sometimes not. We are rarely tested to our breaking point, and it's easy to be smug when we see others fail, thinking we could have succeeded where they did not. The tendency to believe that anyone who has failed is "making excuses" is understandable, but one of the great things about maker culture is the way it embraces failure: it recognizes that we all can stretch ourselves too far and that there are circumstances where no physically conceivable amount of effort could have created success. Under such circumstances it's important to fail gracefully, not to deny the possibility of or responsibility for failure. I think this happens a lot in divorce: people blame their partner because they aren't willing to say, "I have failed", and that creates a huge amount of pain and divisiveness, and even worse, it makes lawyers rich. Failure is always an option. We know this as makers, hackers and engineers. It isn't simply a matter of "trying harder". Some problems cannot be solved under the constraints we are given, and when that happens we have failed, as surely as a girder that has buckled under an excessive load. This conundrum is sometimes known as "the human condition": http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_strain.htm http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_strain.htm

shawnz 12y ago

> there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants. I think this is a pretty bold statement. Is it not possible that two people might just never be able to get along with each other, no matter how hard they try?

smoyer 12y ago
"I think this is a pretty bold statement" And I'm going to stand by it - I actually believe the statistics presented in the parent post and, would those two people (who "just might never be able to get along with each other") have discovered their incompatibility if they'd dated for more than a couple years?
- shawnz 12y ago
  > would those two people have discovered their incompatibility if they'd dated for more than a couple years? Of course they would. But we were discussing arranged and religiously motivated marriages, where that opportunity might not be afforded. Is there still "no such thing as a bad marriage" even when you "marry strangers"?
  - smoyer 12y ago
    I don't think we were discussing "religiously motivated" marriages but rather that a shared religion (presumably one that both participants had before the marriage) was an additional social pressure "like" arranged marriages. In any case, I think that social pressure can be a pretty strong force and that it tends to counteract the sort of selfishness that leads to a "bad marriage". Of course bad marriages will statistically happen but I don't think you can claim the huge number of divorces we're seeing are all "bad marriages" - my premise is that many could be cured if both participants cared to work a bit.
    - trendroid 12y ago
      >both participants cared to work a bit. How do we measure whether the amount of caring done was enough or not? Considering it varies based on personalities and other convincing capabilities of a partner, how do we know for sure apart from just getting information from the partners themselves who say that they tried a lot to make it work. Its important to remember that there is lot of suffering involved when one of the partner keeps working due to societal pressure while the other continues to mistreat them. This is more prevalent in developing countries like India and China. There is only so much a person can try on their own(they cant stand shaming so dont share oppression with other family)

themartorana 12y ago

> there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants This is absurd. It's constructed of a series of suppositions, only a few of which I'll address. First is that people are static. This simply isn't true. We all know that we all change - not just in age, wisdom, and so on, but in tastes, politics, religious dedication, and the lines we draw between wrong and right, just to name a few. In just these ways, people can grow apart. The distance between these changes can, in fact, cause "irreconcilable differences." Sometimes these changes are brought about by dramatic stress events, from the death of a child to major swings in financial stability. The way in which these events change the unwilling participants can again lead to incompatibility where once there was compatibility. But worst is the idea that if people just "work on it" they can overcome anything. Sometimes overcoming growing apart - be it over time or rather quickly - is best done by removing yourself from a situation that is no longer positive, and has little ability to become positive again. This is where I find religion quite often inserts itself negatively. While I agree with a poster above that regular attendance at religious gatherings does often help a couple share a support network, share common beliefs and similar circles of friends, etc., religion often tells you only divorce or failed marriage is an abomination, and a personal failure requiring lifetime penance. It then follows by labeling that person as an outcast, no longer worthy of the community they had once belonged to. These are just a few reasons (not to mention physical/substance abuse, and so on) that marriages can fail without it being personal failure. Your assertion does nothing but pile on further stigma to those who have gone through divorce. No one wants their marriage to fail, but when it does, it isn't always personal failure that requires additional shaming from outsiders.

jasonparker 12y ago
Gotta disagree with you: marriage is a contract, forsaking all others, so long as you both shall live. Divorce means your word is worthless, and that your own wants are more important than your word. It IS a personal failure, but go ahead, rationalize all you want.
- ska 12y ago
  One part of what marriage is, is a contract between two people. But remember that you don't get to decide the terms of that contract for them.

king_jester 12y ago

> On the other hand, "staying in a bad marriage" is a misnomer - there's not really such a thing as a bad marriage so much as selfish participants. When one more both of the partners refuse to work towards a better marriage, it's practically impossible to make that marriage last. Uh, there are totally such things as a bad marriage. If, say, your spouse became abusive over time from the perspective of the abused spouse it most certainly a bad marriage. Marriage isn't a one time negotiation and you are stuck with whatever happens after that. Relationships require constant work and growth over time. If two people find themselves in a place where that relationship isn't working for them and even is outright harmful to their well being, they have all rights to end that relationship.