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There Is No Maker Movement in China
- chris_mahan 12y agoI have a few ello invites left. Update 5:02 PST: All out, sorry.
- kstrauser 12y agoI wouldn't turn one down. :-)
- chris_mahan 12y agofollow my name to my website, then contact, then email, send me your email, and I'll send an invite.
- jessaustin 12y agoThe cybermart description matches exactly my memory of Sim Lim Square from when I lived in Singapore, except that place is immense and you could get the best naan you've ever had in the basement.
- seanmcdirmid 12y agoThe best naan is to be had in Japan, where every single Indian restaurant seems to have what looks like a stone wood fired pizza oven (and there are many that run all you can eat naan lunch specials). Living in Beijing, I'm so bored of cybermarts. Also, if you want to find the makers here, try wangjing and CAFA (central academy of fine arts) rather than Zhongguancun (where all the e-markets and grand tech universities are). It should not be surprising that the designers and artists would be more passionate about this than the engineer/entrepreneurs/traders trying to make some bucks. Also, never leave your computer with the solder guy; always insist on watching the repair. They have swapped out good components for broken ones before.
- leishulang 12y agoI brought a galaxy phone for my mum from one of those cybermarts in Guangzhou. The original 8G ram was replaced with a 4G one. When my mum complains that the phone run slow, I was like "you installed too much crap-apps". Then one day I finally found out the phone was modified.
- seanmcdirmid 12y agoThat doesn't make sense. It was probably the flash that was replaced. NEVER trust those people at the cybermarts...buy from the Apple store, a certified Taobao store, or at a real storefront (though you still have to be careful). They will cheat you if they have any opportunity to do so.
- jessaustin 12y agoI found Japanese Indian food to be an acquired taste; I eventually did acquire it, but it's kind of its own thing. I doubt the place I'm thinking of is still in the basement of SLS, since that was more than a decade ago, but they advertised "Pakistani-Afghanistan" food and the big burly guy who punched the naan then threw it directly into the tandoor. In addition to Singapore and Japan, I've also had naan in India and many other places... Eventually I'll have my own tandoor. Even if I'd missed the naan in Japan, my experience with Japanese Mexican food alone would have left me somewhat skeptical of your claim. b^)
- seanmcdirmid 12y agoFrankly, I've never had good naan in Singapore or even India (Bangalore, Delhi), but I haven't explored those places as much as Japan. I guess it depends on what you are looking for, but Japanese naan is huge and fluffy. There are tons of Indian people in Japan, even in small cities like Gifu, and all the restaurants tend to be family style affairs (as opposed to China, where the cook is probably Chinese...grrr....). I'm not really a big fan of central Asian naan (too hard, not fluffy), but we have a local variation of that here from Xinjiang.
- sleepyhead 12y ago
- eru 12y agoSim Lim tower is actually better for maker stuff than Sim Lim square. The two are just across the street from each other. (I hope I'm not mixing them up.)
- cflee 12y agoYou're correct. Sim Lim Tower is where the electronic/electrical stuff is, Sim Lim Square has the computer parts and electronics (cameras etc). But in Singapore, the mother lode is probably Koba Electronics[1] in Chinatown.. [1] http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/08/06/global-geek-tour-singapore-at-koba-electronics-shop/ http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/08/06/global-geek-tour-s...
- eru 12y agoThanks. I'll check out Koba when I'm there over Chinese New Year. Around the Sim Lims (and across the island) you also have lots of small hardware shops.
- crishoj 12y agoThe headline sort of nails it: In China, doing electronics is not a movement, but a livelihood, done out of necessity or ability rather than curiosity or idealism.
- seanmcdirmid 12y agoThe first thing I learned in China: there are many different China's to consider. There are definitely a lot of people making livings here, but there is creative talent if you look in different places.
- jff 12y ago> the "We here in the Maker movement could not be more pleased with ourselves" vibe. Oh my, yes, it is rather cringeworthy.
- turbostyler 12y agoEllo is so shitty. It's like a cross between Tumblr and Twitter with a shitty UI and almost no functionality.
- chris_mahan 12y agoIt's not for everyone. it takes a while to get used to.
- goblin89 12y agoEllo is just another way to spread and consume content.
- aarongolliver 12y agoOK? That doesn't stop it from being a shitty way to spread and consume content.
- moron4hire 12y agoIt's new. I really hope people aren't saying the same thing about my stuff when I first release it.
- cr3ative 12y agoIt's okay, just label your UI so users don't have to guess what a button might do and most people will be fine
- TheMagicHorsey 12y agoGreat essay. Making is a movement in America, because it isn't a necessity. In China, repairing things instead of throwing them away is the norm. So there are large numbers of Makers in every town, who honed their skills in electronics repair. When robots bring down the cost of new goods to the point where it no longer makes sense to repair things--because they are so cheap to replace--China will lose its Makers just as America did. And then they'll have a Maker movement.
- rasz_pl 12y agoYou are delusional. When robots are good enough to build everything and labour cost of manufacturing approaches zero there will be NO ONE to buy anything. We will end up with 1% owning robots, 9% working directly on robots(designing/fixing), and 90% in favelas eating grass and cardboard bread.
- eonwe 12y agoAnd robots doing what? Creating cardboard for the people in favelas to eat? I think you're being a bit overly pessimistic here.
- reedlaw 12y agoThere is a downside to hacking-as-livelihood. Many workers are overworked. They hack for a living, but seldom have time to hack for fun. This is especially true among software developers. There are far fewer activities organized around programming than in the West. Occasionally there are weekend hackathons, but few professional programmers have the heart to participate. They are looking to spend time with family or enjoy a few hours outdoors on the rare weekends when they don't have to work.
- seanmcdirmid 12y agoIts not that bad here. Saturdays aren't work days anymore for most professionals like they were in the 90s.
- reedlaw 12y agoYes, Saturdays are not "required" work days for white collar workers, but overtime is the norm and often approaches 60 hours. For blue collar workers I've seen 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. Yep, not a single day off despite having national mandatory vacation days.
- seanmcdirmid 12y agoDefinitely not the norm in my office. I think I'm the only person here right now.
- stretchwithme 12y agoSame downside as doing anything for a living.
- reedlaw 12y agoNot so much if you work a normal 40 hour workweek. That leaves some productive energy for evenings and weekends.
- 12y ago
- theophrastus 12y agoI was always impressed with this Chinese maker and farmer, Mr Wu Yulu: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1265919/My-robot-rickshaw-son-Chinese-farmer-Mr-Wu-Yulu-shows-latest-unusual-inventions.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1265919/My-ro...
- bobjordan 12y agoHere is a video I made a while back in a Shenzhen "cybermart" for those who may be interested what it's like: http://youtu.be/C9YJBwD0geA http://youtu.be/C9YJBwD0geA
- zachrose 12y agoThere's a lot of insight here, but I question whether "Maker excitement" vs. "non-excitement of traditional crafts" should be attributed to gender. The way I see it there are plenty of crafts like woodworking that are less "gendered" than jewelry-making and knitting but still wouldn't gather any interest with a Make magazine readership. The overall point though, that electronics were in particular made obscure at some point in the 80s or 90s, seems pretty spot on.
- leoc 12y agoscottdakota in the comments on TFA mentions the guitar-electronics and boutique-audio "scenes", both largely masculine and in the same not-hyped-but-never-went-away category. Then there's the whole world of car customisation, restoration and construction which also leans male, has a significant electrical/electronic component and even enjoys quite a lot of broad popular awareness (six seasons of national TV, dawg). I'd say the hype disparity is more a product of class than sex, if anything. There's a certain minimum level of cultural middle-classness which you normally have to be at or above before you're susceptible to the urge to publish manifestos about what you had for breakfast, and my guess is that most of the guys doing full engine rebuilds in their spare time are below that level while many of those poking (often very casually) at Arduinos are above it. (Digression: another dynamic, thrusting young blogging/social networking system without permalinks for the comments? How absolutely darling. To think that WordPress, Blogger and nearly every sad, dumpy old-wave blogging system had this one figured out back while the WTC was still standing. Strangely appropriate given the topic of this conversation.)
- chaostheory 12y agoI strongly disagree with this post and the author's opinions on Chinese culture. He's missing something really big that's a core of Chinese culture. > the "We here in the Maker movement could not be more pleased with ourselves" vibe. This is another of way of saying that we enjoy making here beyond earning a living. Yes it's work, but it's also recreation and art. In places like SV and NY, people make because mainly it's fun. Over there, 'making' is not really something you enjoy; it's a means to an end. It's something you have to do to make money or save money, which in turn provides for your family and increases your reputation the more money you accumulate. The key point is that there's no love for a trade because nothing else really matters aside from family including your personal hobbies. Therefore on a whole there's no 'maker culture'. If something doesn't make you money for your family, there's no point. There's no doing something just because it's cool and not practical. It must be practical. (This imo is another reason why Chinese open source is anemic.) Add to this the repression of free expression and the work and school hours that are the longer than here, and what you get is a focus more on making copies and knockoffs of name brands (something safe) instead of something truly Chinese like say this: http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/robots-of-wu-yulu http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/robots-of-wu-yulu The main reason I've always remembered this man is because he's one of the few Chinese people in China (that I'm aware of) who actually enjoys making for the sake of making, and not just as a livelihood. You can see the pride in his work. In general their dreams aren't to change the world with something cool. It's to make enough money to send their family off to the US or Canada, where the water and air are cleaner... I can go on and on with this subject. Yes maybe things are slowly changing in small pockets of places like Shanghai where there's a lot of Western expats, but on a whole what I've described is accurate.
- benbreen 12y agoThat link is great. And please do expand on this! I'd love to read more about this topic. It would make an interesting contemporary counterpart to Kenneth Pomeranz's "The Great Divergence," where he explores why an Industrial Revolution almost (bit didn't quite) took place in the Yangzi Valley as well as the late 18th c. English Midlands. It's an interesting read, even if some of it has been contested: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/6823.html http://press.princeton.edu/titles/6823.html
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- beachstartup 12y agoi'm asian american so i'm keenly aware of this kind of thing but it's not apparent to me that the title of the HN post "there is no maker movement in china" has anything to do with the actual text of the message which has more nuance than that title would suggest... am i missing something? without that bait-ish title it takes on a much less derisive tone, although it uses some questionable phrasing. maybe ello just sucks and i'm not seeing it.
- mcphage 12y agoNo, the person you're replying to just has remarkably poor reading comprehension skills. I'd say maybe English isn't their first language (which it totally might not be), but even that isn't sufficient to explain their misinterpretation.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]
- randallsquared 12y agoThe article seemed to suggest that China had no need for a specific subculture of "Making" because making things was so widespread and such a part of existing Chinese culture. On the other hand, your comment seems to be responding to some article which hypothetically would have said that the Chinese couldn't make things, or that their making things didn't count.
- gojomo 12y agoYou're not contradicting the linked post, just one indignant interpretation of the submission-title. And that title, by the way, does not appear at the title-less post. Shirky is actually making the case that China has plenty of maker-ness – just not in the form of a self-conscious, self-congratulatory capital-M 'Maker Movement'. That seems to be roughly your view, as well – but for some reason you'd rather take offense?
- 12y ago
- hikesoftware 12y agoNice information i like your writing
- Animats 12y agoThis is about Shenzhen, not China. Shenzhen is the world center of electronics manufacture. Those stores aren't there for people doing one-offs. They're the supply chain for smaller manufacturers. If there's a huge stack of Blackberry-like keyboards, that's because there's someone very nearby assembling the finished device. There used to be places in the US like that, focused on specific consumer product areas. Lower Manhattan for garments, Trenton, NJ for minor tablewear, Pittsburgh PA for heavy steel items, North Carolina for wooden furniture, and Silicon Valley for ICs. Once the Interstate Highway System was built, and UPS and FedEx really go their act together, there was less concentration. China's government is trying to spread things out more, building cities in the interior provinces, building up the expressway system, and offering companies incentives to move. This goes against a long history of discouraging long supply chains. For centuries, inter-provincial trade was discouraged, and there are remnants of that today.
- _pmf_ 12y agoToday is armchair cultural anthropology day again.
- imrehg 12y agoAnd a reply from Tom Igoe (mentioned in the original post as being opinionated and informed): https://ello.co/tigoe/post/dxGk7ID3kcO0cF95U2so6w https://ello.co/tigoe/post/dxGk7ID3kcO0cF95U2so6w > US makers have the luxury of being able to be makers because we outsourced manufacturing. And as China's manufacturing wages rise, that middle class has less romanticism about making things, because the skills are not two generations in the past, as they are for us. The kids there who wanna be makers most likely (based on a handful of conversations at MF Shenzen, not systematic) romanticize the part of a US Maker life that we now find tiring: the part where we hold down a high-wage job designing things to be made in offshore factories. > I'm wondering if Maker culture is just genx's mid-life crisis. Instead of getting Porsches, we get 3D printers.
- thowar2 12y agoI couldnt read this. The design of the site hurts my brain. The font is painful and hard to read.
- yaiu 12y agoThe font on this websight makes this totally unreadable...
- psykovsky 12y agoSo, you can't call it a websight at all...
- gambiting 12y ago"Hardware hacking hasn't become a hot new thing in China because it never stopped being a regular old thing." - I feel like buying regular bread is already this in many places. Where I come from (Poland) there are bakeries in every town, you can buy regular, sour dough bread and rolls, cakes and pastries for very very cheap. However, since I've moved to the UK I noticed that people are so used to buying horrible foil-packed bread in supermarkets, that all bakeries look as some kind of delis - they make "artisinal" and "hand made" bread made with "lots of love and care" and therefore end up costing 5x the price of the cheap toast-bread variety, and people talk about it as if you've been buying caviare for dessert. It's regular bread, there's nothing special about it. I imagine it's the same with electronics in this example - it's nothing new,it's just that America has forgotten how to do it so now it's "hip and special".
- HeyLaughingBoy 12y agoUgh! You struck a nerve. I make bread regularly. It's not a big deal, my mom did it, and probably her mom before her, etc. If we're out of bread, it's not too hot to run the oven and I feel like it, I make bread. But then my mother-in-law comes over and can't stop raving about the bread and if there isn't any, asking if I'm going to "make that wonderful bread" and fawning over it to the point where I'm ready to puke. It's just bread, FFS. Any idiot can learn to make it.
- deleted 12y ago[deleted]