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> The union would do what unions always do--shift some of the economic surplus that the company is currently enjoying (paying less for the bus service than the

by jmckib 12y ago

> The union would do what unions always do--shift some of the economic surplus that the company is currently enjoying (paying less for the bus service than the value it provides) to the workers. One thing worth mentioning here: if prices are determined by the free market they can serve as a valuable signal to increase or decrease supply in response to demand. It may well be that in the future these bus drivers could serve a more useful purpose elsewhere in society, but the signal to do that would be dampened by artificially high wages to bus drivers. Price signals are the reason our society is relatively efficient compared to, say, the Soviet Union. In conclusion, I think OP is right, if these bus drivers don't like the compensation they're getting they should look for work somewhere else, just like the rest of us. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/InformationandPrices.html http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/InformationandPrices.html

Daishiman 12y ago
> In conclusion, I think OP is right, if these bus drivers don't like the compensation they're getting they should look for work somewhere else, just like the rest of us. Well, Facebook can go and relocate their workers and facilities to places with a lower standard of living and less necessity for private transportation services, right? It works both ways.
- jmckib 12y ago
  No, it doesn't. You ignored the part about price signals and how valuable they are.
  - rtpg 12y ago
    the labor market is not a free market (mainly for the high cost of switching, lack of information, and lack of jobs). Treating it like such is dangerous.
    - jmckib 12y ago
      Of course the labor market isn't perfectly free, but it is approximately free, especially in the long run. Price signals do exist. A silly example but it demonstrates the point: if everybody suddenly decided they wanted a massage every day, don't you think the wages for masseuses would go up, ultimately attracting more people to pursue that career? Isn't that a good thing?
      - Daishiman 12y ago
        > Of course the labor market isn't perfectly free, but it is approximately free Bullshit, try going to economies that have suffered periods of extended unemployed labor to see how that impacts 5 and 10 years down the line. Employment is most certainly a social issue and as such is well within the bounds of reasonable regulations, much more so than any commodity.
- beagle3 12y ago
  > Well, Facebook can go and relocate their workers and facilities to places with a lower standard of living and less necessity for private transportation services, right? They already do. Facebook has offices in London, New York, Tel-Aviv and (I would assume) other cities as well; it is not because they like the accents - it is because they exhausted their available CA talent pool AT THE PRICE THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY, and therefore have to tap other pools. I don't understand your argument.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    If Facebook locates offices in areas with a high cost of living they need to factor that high cost of living across all their employees - including cleaners, security guards, admin clerks, and other low pay workers. Facebook can't just use national average wage for the type of job for those jobs, Facebook needs to pay for the increased cost of living for all those people.
    - beagle3 12y ago
      That is built in to how the world works: They cannot pay middle-of-nowhere-china salaries of $5/day to cleaners and security guards, even though those middle-of-nowhere-china residents are willing to take it because they cannot commute there to do the work (for transportation, legal and other reasons). If facebook is paying wages that are too low, they will not find employees. While I definitely agree with the sentiment that jobs should provide a living wage, and I suspect that driving a bus for facebook might not provide that - I think singling out companies that are doing well financially (like Facebook and Google) and asking them to increase pay is hypocritical. If the pay needs to be higher, that should be codified by law. I would oppose a protest asking Bill Gates (whom I do not particularly like, btw) to pay more at the grocery store for same services as anyone else just because he can, regardless of whether the person at the register is making a living wage or not. And facebook paying drivers more is similar.
      - DanBC 12y ago
        But if Bill Gates wnted to empty the grocery store of other customers before he went shopping you would charge him more. Facebook don't want Muni buses and Muni uus drivers, they want exclusive buses and that creates extra costs which they need to pay for. Here the extra costs come from exclusivity and split shifts.
stefan_kendall3 12y ago
Anything hinting at free association that isn't a direct propaganda line of statism will get you hellbanned on HN. Beware.

by jmckib 12y ago

Daishiman 12y ago

> In conclusion, I think OP is right, if these bus drivers don't like the compensation they're getting they should look for work somewhere else, just like the rest of us. Well, Facebook can go and relocate their workers and facilities to places with a lower standard of living and less necessity for private transportation services, right? It works both ways.

jmckib 12y ago
No, it doesn't. You ignored the part about price signals and how valuable they are.
- rtpg 12y ago
  the labor market is not a free market (mainly for the high cost of switching, lack of information, and lack of jobs). Treating it like such is dangerous.
  - jmckib 12y ago
    Of course the labor market isn't perfectly free, but it is approximately free, especially in the long run. Price signals do exist. A silly example but it demonstrates the point: if everybody suddenly decided they wanted a massage every day, don't you think the wages for masseuses would go up, ultimately attracting more people to pursue that career? Isn't that a good thing?
    - Daishiman 12y ago
      > Of course the labor market isn't perfectly free, but it is approximately free Bullshit, try going to economies that have suffered periods of extended unemployed labor to see how that impacts 5 and 10 years down the line. Employment is most certainly a social issue and as such is well within the bounds of reasonable regulations, much more so than any commodity.
beagle3 12y ago
> Well, Facebook can go and relocate their workers and facilities to places with a lower standard of living and less necessity for private transportation services, right? They already do. Facebook has offices in London, New York, Tel-Aviv and (I would assume) other cities as well; it is not because they like the accents - it is because they exhausted their available CA talent pool AT THE PRICE THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY, and therefore have to tap other pools. I don't understand your argument.
- DanBC 12y ago
  If Facebook locates offices in areas with a high cost of living they need to factor that high cost of living across all their employees - including cleaners, security guards, admin clerks, and other low pay workers. Facebook can't just use national average wage for the type of job for those jobs, Facebook needs to pay for the increased cost of living for all those people.
  - beagle3 12y ago
    That is built in to how the world works: They cannot pay middle-of-nowhere-china salaries of $5/day to cleaners and security guards, even though those middle-of-nowhere-china residents are willing to take it because they cannot commute there to do the work (for transportation, legal and other reasons). If facebook is paying wages that are too low, they will not find employees. While I definitely agree with the sentiment that jobs should provide a living wage, and I suspect that driving a bus for facebook might not provide that - I think singling out companies that are doing well financially (like Facebook and Google) and asking them to increase pay is hypocritical. If the pay needs to be higher, that should be codified by law. I would oppose a protest asking Bill Gates (whom I do not particularly like, btw) to pay more at the grocery store for same services as anyone else just because he can, regardless of whether the person at the register is making a living wage or not. And facebook paying drivers more is similar.
    - DanBC 12y ago
      But if Bill Gates wnted to empty the grocery store of other customers before he went shopping you would charge him more. Facebook don't want Muni buses and Muni uus drivers, they want exclusive buses and that creates extra costs which they need to pay for. Here the extra costs come from exclusivity and split shifts.

stefan_kendall3 12y ago

Anything hinting at free association that isn't a direct propaganda line of statism will get you hellbanned on HN. Beware.