5 ms·

Facebook's Bus Drivers Seek Union

44 points by rtpg 12y ago

morgante 12y ago
They really shouldn't take such a combative stance. Comparing Facebook employees to nobility is both ludicrious and oppositional. They're not making insane wages—indeed, based on the Bay cost of living even 6-figure engineer salaries are barely middle class. Let's stop pretending that people who can't even afford to buy a house are entitled, elite, or nobility.
- Totoradio 12y ago
  If 6-figure salary engineers are barely middle class, what are $20/hour bus drivers?
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - morgante 12y ago
    Lower class. If you look at housing prices in the Bay area, that's basically minimum wage.
    - Alupis 12y ago
      It's not FB's job to ensure bus drivers can buy houses in the main city. If the bus drivers are so stubborn to live in the bay, there is plenty of very affordable living spaces (homes, condo's, and the like) all right outside the main city in the suburbs. Irregardless, let's not all weaponize against a company simply because said company has money and bus drivers don't. $20 an hour is pretty darn good for a relatively low-skilled job.
      - Totoradio 12y ago
        Their work schedule (6:10-11:10 AM and 5:15-9:45 PM) makes it very hard to live too far away from their workplace.
        Alupis 12y ago
        And? You somehow think that justifies what? $50 an hour? when is enough, enough? Loo, my father works for the city municipal public transit system (has now for 20 years), but these are bus drivers - it is a low skilled job with a fast revolving door.
        DanBC 12y ago
        "Low skilled"? That seems an odd, risky, attitude to have about someone piloting twenty tons of steel and a full load of passengers through a city.
        beagle3 12y ago
        It is a statement of fact. "Low skilled" is, in this case, in comparison to the population, not some objective absolute. In CA, "driving literacy", which is almost sufficient for piloting said steel contraption, is comparable to real literacy, and I suspect is way above numeracy. Would you consider being able to read or do arithmetics anything other than "low skilled"?
        Alupis 12y ago
        It most certainly is low skilled. Anyone can sign up, take a 2 week course given by the municipal public transit system, then take the state's Class B license test. After that, you are in charge of the "twenty tons of steel" no holds barred. In fact, at the local university (it's a UC, but I won't name it since then you'd know which municipal public transit system I'm using in my anecdotes), student's 21 and up can apply and take a 1 week course, the UC pays for the Class B license test, and then they, a student, gets to drive the UC's "twenty tons of steel" buses around campus and to nearby neighborhoods shuttling students around. (ya, it's as scary as it sounds). I don't know for sure, but I assume more UC's have similar programs. Yes, this is by definition a low skilled job.
      - morgante 12y ago
        If you read my original comment, I'm not in favor of this attitude/weaponization anyways...
- shoo 12y ago
  sure, i'll agree `entitled` or `nobility` is a bit unfair, but the bus drivers must be making < $50k, assuming they work full time, with those ugly split shifts. how about "relatively elite"?
- teh_klev 12y ago
  I don't see a "combative stance" being expressed in that article. Is desiring union representation combative? It's not as if they're suggesting going on strike or even demanding more money. Sometimes companies do need a little bit of a collective nudge to try and work out better working conditions and schedules.
- hueving 12y ago
  I never understood how attacking the highly skilled workers by referring to them as entitled or nobility is supposed to accomplish anything. What an stupid way to alienate the very group that might actually empathize and lobby for better driver pay.
- vdaniuk 12y ago
  Facebook engineers are elite. Earning six figure salary, FB perks, CA public infrastructure, weather and other factors combined create a very high quality of life. While I think that engineer wages should increase at the expense of corporate margins, Valley engineers do live a life that is comparable or better than life of nobility in the past.
mooneater 12y ago
With computer driven cars nearly here, being a professional driver might not be a long term career for much more time.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  Careful, soon the technology might exist to let professional software developers/engineers work from anywhere. Just think of the low cost locales you'll have the pleasure of competing against.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    I don't think we are much more than a decade off a lot of code being written by computer from natural language requests given by management.
    - brazzy 12y ago
      Maybe in something like a "common business-oriented language"? Which startup do I invest in?
    - dragonwriter 12y ago
      Optimists have been saying that since at least the late 1980s. But, realistically, we're probably more like a decade away from significant, widespread acceptance influence of a new programming approach like that of bloom [1] possibly combined with a visual dev environment (LightTable's Eve [2], from the recent HN discussion, seems like it may be the initial vehicle for this.) But what you are suggesting isn't just automating away programming, but automating away requirements analysis. And that's not happening any time soon. [1] http://www.bloom-lang.net/ http://www.bloom-lang.net/ [2] http://www.chris-granger.com/2014/10/01/beyond-light-table/ http://www.chris-granger.com/2014/10/01/beyond-light-table/
- taway0192837465 12y ago
  huh, there are some terms and notions been thrown around in this discussion that may lead to a very skewed world-view but let me first respond to "With computer driven cars nearly here"(as in "Shut up and work till it last since you are going to be replaced sooner than later"). There is an upcoming revolution (not only) in the IT sector knocking on the door, comparable(in principle, not in scale) to the aftermath of the big industrial revolution in the late 19/early 20th century. Not only are most of the it-services jobs going to be obsolete(I'm not talking about people facing the customer, although this segment will be affected as well), even many of the "high-level" engineering jobs have an expiration date. Just look at your team, how many "code-pushers" do you have within that team compared to creative folks coming up with new radical(emphasis) ideas. There are "thinkers" and "hands"(and - since the world is never this polarized / clear-cut, some overlap in between - mentioning only so nobody would nit-pick an argument over this). The ratio may vary based on the team/project but "hands" are usually the most in numbers(and this is OK, we do need people that can actually finish a project, can get the work done; this was argued a 1000times here and I agree with most of the conclusions). If you see yourself in the first category(please keep in mind that the term is not a very lucky-chosen one) - there is no reason to be anxious .. well with trade agreements plowing the global economic field 24/7 I'm sure there is no-one on the planet that could do the same job as good as you for far less(well, to be honest, there indeed are people with a combination of skills that you probably would not find anywhere else - hence the "evil-genius" acquisition by google - and you may be in that category).. for everyone else, something to think about. This process is already gaining momentum in "ES-like" environments - the IT job market is going to change once again and this time it won't be a zero-sum game(even when we widen the scope to the whole economy - we have already passed the point where new emerging industries could compensate the rising efficiency of the old ones). Now to the notion of class. To have money is not the same as being wealthy. Having a 6fig salary doesn't push you “one class" higher - just imagine what would happen if your skill-set would become obsolete tomorrow. You'd have to start over in a new industry(I will assume that median of the IT crowd is above average on the IQ scala and therefore would not have a problem finding another job*), the house/apartment you could barely afford is now over your budget and since most of your peers have the same problem, the housing market normalizes; you'd loose even more money if you'd want to sell it and move to a cheaper area(now throw-in a mortgage and you are set for years). Being upper-class meant that you had enough diversified "income-producing" assets to overcome such changes without loosing your living standard(I'd say even more important was/is the "upper-class" social network you were/are a part of, which handles the diversification even better and represents a valuable safety net on its own). How many peers owning stocks from companies across the industry, real-estate(fe an office building on the main street in some "emerging" town), with at least some connections to leaders of other industries / politics etc do you know? So, TL;DR A 6figure salary doesn't make you jump to a higher "class", it doesn't even make you "wealthy", it just widens your economical horizon / makes you a little more free(the money-to-freedom function is not linear, nor is the money-to-wealth func) We all are facing the same, unavoidable employment crisis as those bus drivers mentioned above. + I fully agree with sschueller's comment - why not invest in public transport and give something back to the community German Mittelstand-like instead?
GuiA 12y ago
I have a really hard time understanding the union's position. The problem is stated by the CEO of the contracting company very clearly: > Jeff Leonoudakis, president of Facebook’s shuttle bus contractor, Loop Transportation, said many Facebook drivers earned $18 to $20 an hour. > “We believe that we take really good care of our drivers,” Mr. Leonoudakis said. “They’re the heart of our company. Without them, we can’t provide service to our customers.” > He also said Loop provided a generous medical and dental insurance plan. > “We pay overtime, which most of our competitors do not pay,” Mr. Leonoudakis added, noting that the company provided vacations, sick leave and holiday pay. > “In keeping with the fact that we provide this high level of wages and benefits to our drivers, I don’t think the union is necessary in this case,” he said. > Mr. Leonoudakis acknowledged that the split shifts were a strain for drivers. > “The split shift is a necessity — that’s what our customers are asking for,” he said. “We are trying to make the conditions as pleasant and comfortable as we can.” > He added, “I don’t have an answer for” the split-shift problem. “I don’t think anyone in the industry does.” The drivers are well compensated, have benefits, and are treated well. The only problem is that the job requires a split shift, but not much can be done about that. The company's already having a hard time being competitive with contracts - putting 2 drivers per shift would probably make the company non-competitive for contracts. The job has a clear downside, but that's just how it is and the company tries to make it as comfortable for the employees as it can. If it's really a problem for the employees, isn't that where the free labor market would allow them to quit their job and look for something more in tune with their preferences? I'm looking forward to replies to my comment because I'm having a hard time seeing the magical cure here. There's a problem (transporting employees requires drivers), a company emerges to solve it, and compensates employees at a value more or less determined by what the job is worth ($20 an hour, which is roughly between a job at McDonald's making burgers ($10/hour) and a job as a middle class white collar worker ($30/hour)). Realistically, what can be done better here in the short term? What is the union going to bring to this economic conundrum?
- fubu 12y ago
  A Union Rep. Its something, I imagine, people who have never been in a Union have no real concept off. As an employee you have onsite representation. All the grey area nonsense that people in many industries deal with fades away when you have a clear, detailed and most importantly enforceable contractual agreement of what your employment does and does not include. When your boss tells you that you have to do something, you can text your Rep and ask them. It sounds simple but it is really incredible peace of mind to have. They might say "I know it stinks but you do", but at least you have that peace of mind knowing that you are working within the bounds of the contract you and your fellow workers agreed to.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
DannyBee 12y ago
"One big problem, in the Teamsters’ view, is that the bus companies are constantly seeking to underbid one another for contracts. " Yeah, if only they didn't compete with each other ... "“That hampers their ability to pay these workers decently,” Mr. Aloise said, “and that keeps pulling the common denominator down.”" I'm not even sure what he's suggesting?
- DanBC 12y ago
  > I'm not even sure what he's suggesting? Company A and B make bids based partly on what they pay their drivers. Company A wins. Company B lowers their pay in order to be more competitive. Company B wins the next bid. Company A lowers pay to be competitive. I think that's what he's saying. I'm not sure how true it is. Competitive tendering does have some flaws but I'm not sure that's one of them.
  - DannyBee 12y ago
    "I think that's what he's saying. I'm not sure how true it is." So uh, they lower their price to compete and to what the market will bear. Isn't that how it is supposed to work? If it isn't enough to live on, people will do something that lets them live (In theory. In practice, people just complain about the high cost of living wherever they are, instead of moving to places where there are jobs available and lower cost of living)
    - pm90 12y ago
      Moving is not as easy as you make out to be. People choose to live in a place for other reason than just monetary: their family might be in SF, they might have been born there etc. You can't just turn your face and say, "Hey this is how the market works. Deal with it". Because when the number of people disgruntled with this system reaches a certain point, bad things will happen.
      - DannyBee 12y ago
        "People choose to live in a place for other reason than just monetary: their family might be in SF, they might have been born there etc. " Their are consequences to this choice. The consequence in this case is "it is hard to find a job that pays well enoguh to live there". "You can't just turn your face and say, "Hey this is how the market works. Deal with it"." I agree this is true. However, literally not a single person in this thread has given a solution to this problem that works over the long term. "Because when the number of people disgruntled with this system reaches a certain point, bad things will happen." Yes, revolutions happen. This does not generate a long term stable situation where everyone can live where they want either :) (in fact, revolutions tend to redistribute land, and often people who were living in places the longest get kicked out!) "Bad things" just kind of proves the point. If someone had come up with a viable solution, these bad things would never happen. But they happen in places all the time. They effectively reset the clock on some problem, though they often have some nasty side-effects.
sschueller 12y ago
Instead of spending all this money on private buses why not spend it on getting the local public transportation into better shape and give something back to the community? Am I the only one who find it quite sick that these large firms use private buses when they could be getting together to fix/improve what is broken?
- SeoxyS 12y ago
  Actually, I see it as the complete opposite. Oftentimes, the public systems are so broken that sinking money into it is a lost cause. The entrepreneurial solution, taking matter into your own hands and building a better solution, is a much better alternative.
  - sschueller 12y ago
    Why not "disrupt" by starting a private "public" transport.
    - SeoxyS 12y ago
      That would be awesome! But, it's not really Facebook (or Google or Apple)'s business or area of expertise. That said, there are a few startups working on it.
    - Daishiman 12y ago
      Because on the long run it doesn't work. The city of Lima, Peru, has a system of informal buses which go through the city in different routes, and charge an extremely low price. On the surface, it works well, but it suffers a tremendous problem of lack of coordination which leads to huge systemic inefficiencies. The government of Lima is fighting back by improving the public transport infrastructure, but it's a project that will take decades.
      - Houshalter 12y ago
        But the system works, you're just saying it doesn't work as well as it ideally could if everything was coordinated.
0838-0421-7736 12y ago
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Rapzid 12y ago
If everyone on the bus could drive the bus.. Facebook could buy a few buses and not need drivers.
- QuantumChaos 12y ago
  I rode the corporate buses, and underpaid or not, the drivers are highly professional. I wouldn't trust my life to a random fellow employee over a trained and experienced driver.
facebook111 12y ago
Such ignorance. It was unions that brought us 40 hour work weeks and safety to the workplace. They can either bargain with any unionization that might happen, or they can fix the conditions that are causing the drivers to want to go to collective bargaining in the first place. Maybe Facebook could start their own service and pay the drivers better, they can certainly afford it.
TYPE_FASTER 12y ago
Just starting a union won't get rid of swing shifts. Some public transportation drivers are in a union and work swing shifts.
yty 12y ago
Such ignorance. It was unions that brought us 40 hour work weeks and safety to the workplace. They can either bargain with any unionization that might happen, or they can fix the conditions that are causing the drivers to want to go to collective bargaining in the first place. Maybe Facebook could start their own service and pay the drivers better, they can certainly afford it.

44 points by rtpg 12y ago

They really shouldn't take such a combative stance. Comparing Facebook employees to nobility is both ludicrious and oppositional. They're not making insane wages—indeed, based on the Bay cost of living even 6-figure engineer salaries are barely middle class. Let's stop pretending that people who can't even afford to buy a house are entitled, elite, or nobility.

Totoradio 12y ago
If 6-figure salary engineers are barely middle class, what are $20/hour bus drivers?
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- morgante 12y ago
  Lower class. If you look at housing prices in the Bay area, that's basically minimum wage.
  - Alupis 12y ago
    It's not FB's job to ensure bus drivers can buy houses in the main city. If the bus drivers are so stubborn to live in the bay, there is plenty of very affordable living spaces (homes, condo's, and the like) all right outside the main city in the suburbs. Irregardless, let's not all weaponize against a company simply because said company has money and bus drivers don't. $20 an hour is pretty darn good for a relatively low-skilled job.
    - Totoradio 12y ago
      Their work schedule (6:10-11:10 AM and 5:15-9:45 PM) makes it very hard to live too far away from their workplace.
      - Alupis 12y ago
        And? You somehow think that justifies what? $50 an hour? when is enough, enough? Loo, my father works for the city municipal public transit system (has now for 20 years), but these are bus drivers - it is a low skilled job with a fast revolving door.
        DanBC 12y ago
        "Low skilled"? That seems an odd, risky, attitude to have about someone piloting twenty tons of steel and a full load of passengers through a city.
        beagle3 12y ago
        It is a statement of fact. "Low skilled" is, in this case, in comparison to the population, not some objective absolute. In CA, "driving literacy", which is almost sufficient for piloting said steel contraption, is comparable to real literacy, and I suspect is way above numeracy. Would you consider being able to read or do arithmetics anything other than "low skilled"?
        Alupis 12y ago
        It most certainly is low skilled. Anyone can sign up, take a 2 week course given by the municipal public transit system, then take the state's Class B license test. After that, you are in charge of the "twenty tons of steel" no holds barred. In fact, at the local university (it's a UC, but I won't name it since then you'd know which municipal public transit system I'm using in my anecdotes), student's 21 and up can apply and take a 1 week course, the UC pays for the Class B license test, and then they, a student, gets to drive the UC's "twenty tons of steel" buses around campus and to nearby neighborhoods shuttling students around. (ya, it's as scary as it sounds). I don't know for sure, but I assume more UC's have similar programs. Yes, this is by definition a low skilled job.
    - morgante 12y ago
      If you read my original comment, I'm not in favor of this attitude/weaponization anyways...
shoo 12y ago
sure, i'll agree `entitled` or `nobility` is a bit unfair, but the bus drivers must be making < $50k, assuming they work full time, with those ugly split shifts. how about "relatively elite"?
teh_klev 12y ago
I don't see a "combative stance" being expressed in that article. Is desiring union representation combative? It's not as if they're suggesting going on strike or even demanding more money. Sometimes companies do need a little bit of a collective nudge to try and work out better working conditions and schedules.
hueving 12y ago
I never understood how attacking the highly skilled workers by referring to them as entitled or nobility is supposed to accomplish anything. What an stupid way to alienate the very group that might actually empathize and lobby for better driver pay.
vdaniuk 12y ago
Facebook engineers are elite. Earning six figure salary, FB perks, CA public infrastructure, weather and other factors combined create a very high quality of life. While I think that engineer wages should increase at the expense of corporate margins, Valley engineers do live a life that is comparable or better than life of nobility in the past.

mooneater 12y ago

With computer driven cars nearly here, being a professional driver might not be a long term career for much more time.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
Careful, soon the technology might exist to let professional software developers/engineers work from anywhere. Just think of the low cost locales you'll have the pleasure of competing against.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  I don't think we are much more than a decade off a lot of code being written by computer from natural language requests given by management.
  - brazzy 12y ago
    Maybe in something like a "common business-oriented language"? Which startup do I invest in?
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    Optimists have been saying that since at least the late 1980s. But, realistically, we're probably more like a decade away from significant, widespread acceptance influence of a new programming approach like that of bloom [1] possibly combined with a visual dev environment (LightTable's Eve [2], from the recent HN discussion, seems like it may be the initial vehicle for this.) But what you are suggesting isn't just automating away programming, but automating away requirements analysis. And that's not happening any time soon. [1] http://www.bloom-lang.net/ http://www.bloom-lang.net/ [2] http://www.chris-granger.com/2014/10/01/beyond-light-table/ http://www.chris-granger.com/2014/10/01/beyond-light-table/
taway0192837465 12y ago
huh, there are some terms and notions been thrown around in this discussion that may lead to a very skewed world-view but let me first respond to "With computer driven cars nearly here"(as in "Shut up and work till it last since you are going to be replaced sooner than later"). There is an upcoming revolution (not only) in the IT sector knocking on the door, comparable(in principle, not in scale) to the aftermath of the big industrial revolution in the late 19/early 20th century. Not only are most of the it-services jobs going to be obsolete(I'm not talking about people facing the customer, although this segment will be affected as well), even many of the "high-level" engineering jobs have an expiration date. Just look at your team, how many "code-pushers" do you have within that team compared to creative folks coming up with new radical(emphasis) ideas. There are "thinkers" and "hands"(and - since the world is never this polarized / clear-cut, some overlap in between - mentioning only so nobody would nit-pick an argument over this). The ratio may vary based on the team/project but "hands" are usually the most in numbers(and this is OK, we do need people that can actually finish a project, can get the work done; this was argued a 1000times here and I agree with most of the conclusions). If you see yourself in the first category(please keep in mind that the term is not a very lucky-chosen one) - there is no reason to be anxious .. well with trade agreements plowing the global economic field 24/7 I'm sure there is no-one on the planet that could do the same job as good as you for far less(well, to be honest, there indeed are people with a combination of skills that you probably would not find anywhere else - hence the "evil-genius" acquisition by google - and you may be in that category).. for everyone else, something to think about. This process is already gaining momentum in "ES-like" environments - the IT job market is going to change once again and this time it won't be a zero-sum game(even when we widen the scope to the whole economy - we have already passed the point where new emerging industries could compensate the rising efficiency of the old ones). Now to the notion of class. To have money is not the same as being wealthy. Having a 6fig salary doesn't push you “one class" higher - just imagine what would happen if your skill-set would become obsolete tomorrow. You'd have to start over in a new industry(I will assume that median of the IT crowd is above average on the IQ scala and therefore would not have a problem finding another job*), the house/apartment you could barely afford is now over your budget and since most of your peers have the same problem, the housing market normalizes; you'd loose even more money if you'd want to sell it and move to a cheaper area(now throw-in a mortgage and you are set for years). Being upper-class meant that you had enough diversified "income-producing" assets to overcome such changes without loosing your living standard(I'd say even more important was/is the "upper-class" social network you were/are a part of, which handles the diversification even better and represents a valuable safety net on its own). How many peers owning stocks from companies across the industry, real-estate(fe an office building on the main street in some "emerging" town), with at least some connections to leaders of other industries / politics etc do you know? So, TL;DR A 6figure salary doesn't make you jump to a higher "class", it doesn't even make you "wealthy", it just widens your economical horizon / makes you a little more free(the money-to-freedom function is not linear, nor is the money-to-wealth func) We all are facing the same, unavoidable employment crisis as those bus drivers mentioned above. + I fully agree with sschueller's comment - why not invest in public transport and give something back to the community German Mittelstand-like instead?

GuiA 12y ago

I have a really hard time understanding the union's position. The problem is stated by the CEO of the contracting company very clearly: > Jeff Leonoudakis, president of Facebook’s shuttle bus contractor, Loop Transportation, said many Facebook drivers earned $18 to $20 an hour. > “We believe that we take really good care of our drivers,” Mr. Leonoudakis said. “They’re the heart of our company. Without them, we can’t provide service to our customers.” > He also said Loop provided a generous medical and dental insurance plan. > “We pay overtime, which most of our competitors do not pay,” Mr. Leonoudakis added, noting that the company provided vacations, sick leave and holiday pay. > “In keeping with the fact that we provide this high level of wages and benefits to our drivers, I don’t think the union is necessary in this case,” he said. > Mr. Leonoudakis acknowledged that the split shifts were a strain for drivers. > “The split shift is a necessity — that’s what our customers are asking for,” he said. “We are trying to make the conditions as pleasant and comfortable as we can.” > He added, “I don’t have an answer for” the split-shift problem. “I don’t think anyone in the industry does.” The drivers are well compensated, have benefits, and are treated well. The only problem is that the job requires a split shift, but not much can be done about that. The company's already having a hard time being competitive with contracts - putting 2 drivers per shift would probably make the company non-competitive for contracts. The job has a clear downside, but that's just how it is and the company tries to make it as comfortable for the employees as it can. If it's really a problem for the employees, isn't that where the free labor market would allow them to quit their job and look for something more in tune with their preferences? I'm looking forward to replies to my comment because I'm having a hard time seeing the magical cure here. There's a problem (transporting employees requires drivers), a company emerges to solve it, and compensates employees at a value more or less determined by what the job is worth ($20 an hour, which is roughly between a job at McDonald's making burgers ($10/hour) and a job as a middle class white collar worker ($30/hour)). Realistically, what can be done better here in the short term? What is the union going to bring to this economic conundrum?

fubu 12y ago
A Union Rep. Its something, I imagine, people who have never been in a Union have no real concept off. As an employee you have onsite representation. All the grey area nonsense that people in many industries deal with fades away when you have a clear, detailed and most importantly enforceable contractual agreement of what your employment does and does not include. When your boss tells you that you have to do something, you can text your Rep and ask them. It sounds simple but it is really incredible peace of mind to have. They might say "I know it stinks but you do", but at least you have that peace of mind knowing that you are working within the bounds of the contract you and your fellow workers agreed to.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

DannyBee 12y ago

"One big problem, in the Teamsters’ view, is that the bus companies are constantly seeking to underbid one another for contracts. " Yeah, if only they didn't compete with each other ... "“That hampers their ability to pay these workers decently,” Mr. Aloise said, “and that keeps pulling the common denominator down.”" I'm not even sure what he's suggesting?

DanBC 12y ago
> I'm not even sure what he's suggesting? Company A and B make bids based partly on what they pay their drivers. Company A wins. Company B lowers their pay in order to be more competitive. Company B wins the next bid. Company A lowers pay to be competitive. I think that's what he's saying. I'm not sure how true it is. Competitive tendering does have some flaws but I'm not sure that's one of them.
- DannyBee 12y ago
  "I think that's what he's saying. I'm not sure how true it is." So uh, they lower their price to compete and to what the market will bear. Isn't that how it is supposed to work? If it isn't enough to live on, people will do something that lets them live (In theory. In practice, people just complain about the high cost of living wherever they are, instead of moving to places where there are jobs available and lower cost of living)
  - pm90 12y ago
    Moving is not as easy as you make out to be. People choose to live in a place for other reason than just monetary: their family might be in SF, they might have been born there etc. You can't just turn your face and say, "Hey this is how the market works. Deal with it". Because when the number of people disgruntled with this system reaches a certain point, bad things will happen.
    - DannyBee 12y ago
      "People choose to live in a place for other reason than just monetary: their family might be in SF, they might have been born there etc. " Their are consequences to this choice. The consequence in this case is "it is hard to find a job that pays well enoguh to live there". "You can't just turn your face and say, "Hey this is how the market works. Deal with it"." I agree this is true. However, literally not a single person in this thread has given a solution to this problem that works over the long term. "Because when the number of people disgruntled with this system reaches a certain point, bad things will happen." Yes, revolutions happen. This does not generate a long term stable situation where everyone can live where they want either :) (in fact, revolutions tend to redistribute land, and often people who were living in places the longest get kicked out!) "Bad things" just kind of proves the point. If someone had come up with a viable solution, these bad things would never happen. But they happen in places all the time. They effectively reset the clock on some problem, though they often have some nasty side-effects.

sschueller 12y ago

Instead of spending all this money on private buses why not spend it on getting the local public transportation into better shape and give something back to the community? Am I the only one who find it quite sick that these large firms use private buses when they could be getting together to fix/improve what is broken?

SeoxyS 12y ago
Actually, I see it as the complete opposite. Oftentimes, the public systems are so broken that sinking money into it is a lost cause. The entrepreneurial solution, taking matter into your own hands and building a better solution, is a much better alternative.
- sschueller 12y ago
  Why not "disrupt" by starting a private "public" transport.
  - SeoxyS 12y ago
    That would be awesome! But, it's not really Facebook (or Google or Apple)'s business or area of expertise. That said, there are a few startups working on it.
  - Daishiman 12y ago
    Because on the long run it doesn't work. The city of Lima, Peru, has a system of informal buses which go through the city in different routes, and charge an extremely low price. On the surface, it works well, but it suffers a tremendous problem of lack of coordination which leads to huge systemic inefficiencies. The government of Lima is fighting back by improving the public transport infrastructure, but it's a project that will take decades.
    - Houshalter 12y ago
      But the system works, you're just saying it doesn't work as well as it ideally could if everything was coordinated.

0838-0421-7736 12y ago

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Rapzid 12y ago

If everyone on the bus could drive the bus.. Facebook could buy a few buses and not need drivers.

QuantumChaos 12y ago
I rode the corporate buses, and underpaid or not, the drivers are highly professional. I wouldn't trust my life to a random fellow employee over a trained and experienced driver.

facebook111 12y ago

Such ignorance. It was unions that brought us 40 hour work weeks and safety to the workplace. They can either bargain with any unionization that might happen, or they can fix the conditions that are causing the drivers to want to go to collective bargaining in the first place. Maybe Facebook could start their own service and pay the drivers better, they can certainly afford it.

TYPE_FASTER 12y ago

Just starting a union won't get rid of swing shifts. Some public transportation drivers are in a union and work swing shifts.

yty 12y ago