4 ms·

You are stating an opinion/ideal as fact. If you'd look at actual data, you'd see that the vast majority of internet use by consumers is client to server, not p

You are stating an opinion/ideal as fact. If you'd look at actual data, you'd see that the vast majority of internet use by consumers is client to server, not peer to peer traffic (e.g., youtube vs. bittorrent), which means there is no need to be "on the internet" for most people. Distributed federation is great and it does not require end-to-end connectivity for everyone. > See also: Everyone Hates Facebook. I don't know in what kind of bubble you are living but 1.3 billion people are on Facebook; whether it's cool to hate it is not germane to the topic at hand.

vertex-four 12y ago
I'll point out that much of the reason for most traffic on the Internet being client-server is that most users are behind home routers which make P2P traffic difficult or impossible, slowing innovation dramatically. IPv6 could solve this by giving every computer their own IP address on the actual Internet. Sticking with IPv4 continues to slow innovation.
- e12e 12y ago
  Also note that most uses of p2p are illegal. Then again, much of youtube use is just as illegal -- but people assume (correctly) that they won't be sued for watching or downloading something from youtube (youtube might, or uploaders might -- in theory). So, users are stuck behind asymmetric dsl lines, behind poorly functioning NAT routers and couldn't use p2p for what they want to use p2p for ... legally. There are exceptions of course, like this project: http://vodo.net/pioneerone http://vodo.net/pioneerone or: https://www.tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs https://www.tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs But after decades of stagnation, and even regression, in the ISP industry -- getting working p2p solutions to catch on is an uphill struggle. And when people don't have software they can, or want, to run as a service -- the demand doesn't exist either. Contrast this with how people used to run their own BBS back in the day...
- andreasvc 12y ago
  I don't think the client-server model is popular because people are behind home routers, but because it reflects the inherent asymmetry of producers and consumers. People being behind home routers is not a cause of that, but a state of affairs that is not-noticed by or tolerable for most because of this asymmetry. This asymmetry is not caused by any technical limitation; even on Wikipedia, which is probably the prototypical crowdsourced site, editors are vastly outnumbered by readers. I don't disagree with the ideal of everyone being able to serve their own content directly to the internet, I just don't think it reflects reality, specifically the abilities and inclinations of most people. I'm curious how people come to hold on to such beliefs when they are so incongruous with actual human behavior.
  - vertex-four 12y ago
    > People being behind home routers is not a cause of that, but a state of affairs that is not-noticed by or tolerable for most because of this asymmetry. I would say that a great many things are not noticed by or are tolerated by the majority, and it's only when they're presented with a better solution do they notice. Even client-server business models can benefit from peer-to-peer communications. The most obvious is media providers using their clients' connections to avoid having to maintain as large a CDN, and to cut some costs that way. If someone's listened or watched something near you, you can download from them instead. And then there's all sorts of systems which really could be truly peer-to-peer, from social networking to a replacement for ebay.

vertex-four 12y ago

I'll point out that much of the reason for most traffic on the Internet being client-server is that most users are behind home routers which make P2P traffic difficult or impossible, slowing innovation dramatically. IPv6 could solve this by giving every computer their own IP address on the actual Internet. Sticking with IPv4 continues to slow innovation.

e12e 12y ago
Also note that most uses of p2p are illegal. Then again, much of youtube use is just as illegal -- but people assume (correctly) that they won't be sued for watching or downloading something from youtube (youtube might, or uploaders might -- in theory). So, users are stuck behind asymmetric dsl lines, behind poorly functioning NAT routers and couldn't use p2p for what they want to use p2p for ... legally. There are exceptions of course, like this project: http://vodo.net/pioneerone http://vodo.net/pioneerone or: https://www.tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs https://www.tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs But after decades of stagnation, and even regression, in the ISP industry -- getting working p2p solutions to catch on is an uphill struggle. And when people don't have software they can, or want, to run as a service -- the demand doesn't exist either. Contrast this with how people used to run their own BBS back in the day...
andreasvc 12y ago
I don't think the client-server model is popular because people are behind home routers, but because it reflects the inherent asymmetry of producers and consumers. People being behind home routers is not a cause of that, but a state of affairs that is not-noticed by or tolerable for most because of this asymmetry. This asymmetry is not caused by any technical limitation; even on Wikipedia, which is probably the prototypical crowdsourced site, editors are vastly outnumbered by readers. I don't disagree with the ideal of everyone being able to serve their own content directly to the internet, I just don't think it reflects reality, specifically the abilities and inclinations of most people. I'm curious how people come to hold on to such beliefs when they are so incongruous with actual human behavior.
- vertex-four 12y ago
  > People being behind home routers is not a cause of that, but a state of affairs that is not-noticed by or tolerable for most because of this asymmetry. I would say that a great many things are not noticed by or are tolerated by the majority, and it's only when they're presented with a better solution do they notice. Even client-server business models can benefit from peer-to-peer communications. The most obvious is media providers using their clients' connections to avoid having to maintain as large a CDN, and to cut some costs that way. If someone's listened or watched something near you, you can download from them instead. And then there's all sorts of systems which really could be truly peer-to-peer, from social networking to a replacement for ebay.