6 ms·

How con artists trick your mind

101 points by schrofer 12y ago

Jun8 12y ago
The quote from Teller pretty much sums up the situation: "You will be fooled by a trick if it involves more time, money and practice than you (or any other sane onlooker) would be willing to invest" (from an interview with him, it's a fascinating read http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/Teller-Reveals-His-Secrets.html http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/Teller-Reveals-Hi...).
- Rapzid 12y ago
  Ah, but my favourite from that article: "You think you’ve made a choice, just as when you choose between two candidates preselected by entrenched political parties(No. 7—Choice is not freedom)."
ilaksh 12y ago
> Scammers use the “time principle” to persuade us we need to act quickly before we can think rationally and exercise self-control. They also make use of the “deference to authority principle” and the “herd principle” – our tendency to act like our friends or those around us – to convince people that the scam is legitimate. > ...making use of physically attractive accomplices, for instance. They can use our deepest desires to blind our reasoning ... Sounds like standard sales and marketing.
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Because sales and marketing are mostly about scamming people, period. Sure, there are people who are honest about their products and services, but it seems to be an extreme minority. And why we as the society are willing to be lied in the face by advertisers and salesmen is beyond me.
  - penrod 12y ago
    It seems like you are also selling something. And the price, which you do not mention, is the curtailment of free speech, a steep price to pay for the privilege of having my delicate eyes protected from what those bad salesmen are selling.
    - zorbo 12y ago
      "free speech" is the new "think of the children".
  - mfringel 12y ago
    What does it mean to you for a salesperson to be honest about their products and services?
    - gregpilling 12y ago
      "Honesty and integrity are by far the most important assets of an entrepreneur." - Zig Ziglar sales trainer. I have spent a lot of my life in sales. The lying manipulating salesman gets all the attention, the honest guy makes all the money. Why? Customers will figure out if they were lied to, and not buy from that person again. The honest salesperson gets repeat business, and he gets word-of-mouth, and the time to close gets much shorter with repeat customers. Think of your own life. Do you return to the scammy guy? Probably not. Do you have favorite places to spend money? Those places are staffed with the honest people. You probably go back over and over, spending money for years. I have purchased a new car a dozen times. The last three from Joe at Precision Toyota because he treats me well and he gives me great pricing in 5 minutes with no haggling. So Joe has got about $$100,000 in sales out of me. I understand the anger people have about manipulative salespeople. I get angry when I see it too, but mostly because I can see bad technique the way most of the readers on HN see bad code. There are plenty of honest salespeople. You just think of them as "My friend at the store, I always get it from him" and that's ok. Your friend at the store is using his honest nature to build a business.
  - PhantomGremlin 12y ago
    Salesmen might not really be lying. There's a certain reality distortion field involved. One of the best quips I've read on the topic is: All really good salesmen temporarily believe whatever bullshit they are selling at the time. It's kind of like method acting.
- lotharbot 12y ago
  The "time principle" isn't just used in scams designed to separate you from your money. It's also used in religious and political propaganda -- after presenting a dubious chain of evidence or argumentation, quickly jumping to a call to action and hyping up the need to decide now. Sometimes it's not even a call to action that creates time pressure; it's simply a second argument that tangentially relates to the first. If you're trying to listen to the new argument you're no longer thinking critically about the prior one.
  - avn2109 12y ago
    See exhibit A, 9/11 -> Bin Laden -> Afghanistan -> Iraq
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- tjradcliffe 12y ago
  And politics. It's happening right now. There is currently a bit of a debate in Canada as to whether we should be joining the US and its allies in fighting the Islamic State, and all three of these are being heavily deployed by those in favour: 1) we must act now! 2) experts agree! 3) every decent person agrees IS must be stopped! There hasn't been any deployment of physically attractive accomplices, although I guess that's pretty much what the Liberal's use of Justin Trudeau in opposition amounts to. The difficulty is that none of these are actual arguments in favour of the proposed strategy. I am generally opposed to military intervention--because it rarely works and it kills people and costs enormous amounts of money and rarely works--but can see there may be a case to be made here. Unfortunately, by using what are widely recognized as scammer's tactics, the government has alienated itself from any evidence-based support (this would not be a first, for this government nor any of its predecessors.) It would be lovely to see the actual merits of the mission debated, but it is clear that both the opposition and the government are interested only in deploying scammer's tactics in support of their favoured side.
  - SilasX 12y ago
    Same exact thing happened with the '08 bailouts in the US, which Americans were strongly against. There must be some general mechanism by which the most powerful influencers get their act together when they need to. And now I'm sounding uncomfortably similar to conspiracy theorists ...
  - 001sky 12y ago
    Good analysis. The corralary to all this seems to be politically correctness: make the debate appear decided and inarguable before an actual conversation is held. This pre-emptive form of poisoning the well so to speak has proven highly effective when (1), (2), and (3) conclude the topic cannot be opposed by "any reasonable man of [faith/science/progressive values etc].
  - ams6110 12y ago
    Sounds like climate change advocacy too.
    - 12y ago
- electromagnetic 12y ago
  Yeah, every door to door sales person is always a handsome guy or hot chick pushing limited time offers. Inevitably I catch on to the scam by just listening to what their numbers are. "Most of your neighbours have already signed up," okay... and? "It's a limited time offer, so we need to know by the end of the week at the latest."
coffeedrinker 12y ago
To see how this relates to computer security, download the pdf linked in the article. After it exposes the methods of exploitation, it gives examples of internet computer scams. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-754.pdf http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-754.pdf
- wiredfool 12y ago
  Does it expose the methods of exploitation using any of the convenient Acrobat bugs?
yander12 12y ago
> trust in authority, a desire to act in the same way as our friends, or a tendency to act in a consistent way Sounds like how most people get suckered by politicians, over and over again.
- protonfish 12y ago
  The problem is their (and others) attitude that > ...the authority principle, for example, is actually very helpful for surviving peacefully in human society Is it really? But isn't unquestioning obedience to authority the key ingredient to war, corruption and genocide? Maybe trust in authority is necessary in children but adults need to accept the responsibility to think for themselves.
amirmc 12y ago
Cialdini's book on Influence seems relevant here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence:_Science_and_Practice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence:_Science_and_Practice Edit: It's referenced in the article but that link points to Amazon.
- sogen 12y ago
  Great book. btw the Dalai Lama giving flowers at the airport was a great example.
  - kschua 12y ago
    It's the Hare Krishna not the Dalai Lama
    - sogen 12y ago
      oops my bad, thanks!
tokenadult 12y ago
The whole article is an interesting read, and as another comment here already pointed out, it links to other good online content. I think that the article's point about online security is a healthy reminder for many Hacker News readers: "The seven persuasion principles might be as old as the hills, but Stajano says they are often ignored by security experts, who are as likely to blame security breaches on the people using their systems as they are to blame the scammers. 'Too many security professionals think: users are such a pain – my system would be super-secure if only users behaved in the proper way,' he says. He is trying to persuade experts that they need to make security systems that work in harmony with – not despite - the way we behave." We have to deal with human nature as it is, not as we wish it to be, if we are to make progress in computer and Internet security.
- PhantomGremlin 12y ago
  > We have to deal with human nature as it is, not as we wish it to be Yes, exactly. Security professionals should be forced to write this out in longhand about 100 times every week, just so they don't forget. I know many people who have used computers for 20 or 30 years, but who are still "clueless" in my "computer nerd" opinion. That's because normal users just want to use computers as a tool to solve problems they're interested in. Normal people are interested in the destination, computer nerds are interested in the journey.
mathattack 12y ago
This reminded me of my most recent car purchase. I ran out of time (long weekend that I allocated to the search had ended) and couldn't call them out by saying, "I know I don't have to buy it at this price now." Their customer service seemed genuinely surprised when I slammed the sales process in my post-sales feedback.
scotty79 12y ago
Each time I've been conned was due to me wishing things beyond what I know is real. I was conning myself. Conman was just there to take my money.
- jrmiii 12y ago
  Umm, is this a recurrent problem for you? How many times have you been conned?
  - protonfish 12y ago
    If you don't think you've been conned thousands of times in your life then you aren't paying attention. What do you think advertising is? And don't get me started on preachers and realtors.
  - scotty79 12y ago
    I think in total, in my 35 years of life I've lost in total less than one month of my income at current rate. So not a problem. Just a source of interesting observations.
- agumonkey 12y ago
  I have the same issue with 2nd hand items on the web. Always trying to find unrealistic prices, then praying for it to not be a busted. Often ends in 'well I wanted to see' hindsight justification.
jamesbrownuhh 12y ago
Side note - articles like these used to be completely blocked in the UK, but now seem to have become accessible, with the following caveat just below the banner ad: "This website is made by BBC Worldwide. BBC Worldwide is a commercial company that is owned by the BBC (and just the BBC.) No money from the licence fee was used to create this website. Instead this website is supported by advertising outside the UK. The profits we make from it go back to BBC programme-makers to help fund great new BBC programmes"
jvanstry 12y ago
Stopped reading at "Intelligence and experience offers no protection against scammers, says Modic." Come on.
- SilasX 12y ago
  I think they meant "it's no guarantee against..."

101 points by schrofer 12y ago

Jun8 12y ago

The quote from Teller pretty much sums up the situation: "You will be fooled by a trick if it involves more time, money and practice than you (or any other sane onlooker) would be willing to invest" (from an interview with him, it's a fascinating read http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/Teller-Reveals-His-Secrets.html http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/Teller-Reveals-Hi...).

Rapzid 12y ago
Ah, but my favourite from that article: "You think you’ve made a choice, just as when you choose between two candidates preselected by entrenched political parties(No. 7—Choice is not freedom)."

ilaksh 12y ago

> Scammers use the “time principle” to persuade us we need to act quickly before we can think rationally and exercise self-control. They also make use of the “deference to authority principle” and the “herd principle” – our tendency to act like our friends or those around us – to convince people that the scam is legitimate. > ...making use of physically attractive accomplices, for instance. They can use our deepest desires to blind our reasoning ... Sounds like standard sales and marketing.

TeMPOraL 12y ago
Because sales and marketing are mostly about scamming people, period. Sure, there are people who are honest about their products and services, but it seems to be an extreme minority. And why we as the society are willing to be lied in the face by advertisers and salesmen is beyond me.
- penrod 12y ago
  It seems like you are also selling something. And the price, which you do not mention, is the curtailment of free speech, a steep price to pay for the privilege of having my delicate eyes protected from what those bad salesmen are selling.
  - zorbo 12y ago
    "free speech" is the new "think of the children".
- mfringel 12y ago
  What does it mean to you for a salesperson to be honest about their products and services?
  - gregpilling 12y ago
    "Honesty and integrity are by far the most important assets of an entrepreneur." - Zig Ziglar sales trainer. I have spent a lot of my life in sales. The lying manipulating salesman gets all the attention, the honest guy makes all the money. Why? Customers will figure out if they were lied to, and not buy from that person again. The honest salesperson gets repeat business, and he gets word-of-mouth, and the time to close gets much shorter with repeat customers. Think of your own life. Do you return to the scammy guy? Probably not. Do you have favorite places to spend money? Those places are staffed with the honest people. You probably go back over and over, spending money for years. I have purchased a new car a dozen times. The last three from Joe at Precision Toyota because he treats me well and he gives me great pricing in 5 minutes with no haggling. So Joe has got about $$100,000 in sales out of me. I understand the anger people have about manipulative salespeople. I get angry when I see it too, but mostly because I can see bad technique the way most of the readers on HN see bad code. There are plenty of honest salespeople. You just think of them as "My friend at the store, I always get it from him" and that's ok. Your friend at the store is using his honest nature to build a business.
- PhantomGremlin 12y ago
  Salesmen might not really be lying. There's a certain reality distortion field involved. One of the best quips I've read on the topic is: All really good salesmen temporarily believe whatever bullshit they are selling at the time. It's kind of like method acting.
lotharbot 12y ago
The "time principle" isn't just used in scams designed to separate you from your money. It's also used in religious and political propaganda -- after presenting a dubious chain of evidence or argumentation, quickly jumping to a call to action and hyping up the need to decide now. Sometimes it's not even a call to action that creates time pressure; it's simply a second argument that tangentially relates to the first. If you're trying to listen to the new argument you're no longer thinking critically about the prior one.
- avn2109 12y ago
  See exhibit A, 9/11 -> Bin Laden -> Afghanistan -> Iraq
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
tjradcliffe 12y ago
And politics. It's happening right now. There is currently a bit of a debate in Canada as to whether we should be joining the US and its allies in fighting the Islamic State, and all three of these are being heavily deployed by those in favour: 1) we must act now! 2) experts agree! 3) every decent person agrees IS must be stopped! There hasn't been any deployment of physically attractive accomplices, although I guess that's pretty much what the Liberal's use of Justin Trudeau in opposition amounts to. The difficulty is that none of these are actual arguments in favour of the proposed strategy. I am generally opposed to military intervention--because it rarely works and it kills people and costs enormous amounts of money and rarely works--but can see there may be a case to be made here. Unfortunately, by using what are widely recognized as scammer's tactics, the government has alienated itself from any evidence-based support (this would not be a first, for this government nor any of its predecessors.) It would be lovely to see the actual merits of the mission debated, but it is clear that both the opposition and the government are interested only in deploying scammer's tactics in support of their favoured side.
- SilasX 12y ago
  Same exact thing happened with the '08 bailouts in the US, which Americans were strongly against. There must be some general mechanism by which the most powerful influencers get their act together when they need to. And now I'm sounding uncomfortably similar to conspiracy theorists ...
- 001sky 12y ago
  Good analysis. The corralary to all this seems to be politically correctness: make the debate appear decided and inarguable before an actual conversation is held. This pre-emptive form of poisoning the well so to speak has proven highly effective when (1), (2), and (3) conclude the topic cannot be opposed by "any reasonable man of [faith/science/progressive values etc].
- ams6110 12y ago
  Sounds like climate change advocacy too.
  - 12y ago
electromagnetic 12y ago
Yeah, every door to door sales person is always a handsome guy or hot chick pushing limited time offers. Inevitably I catch on to the scam by just listening to what their numbers are. "Most of your neighbours have already signed up," okay... and? "It's a limited time offer, so we need to know by the end of the week at the latest."

coffeedrinker 12y ago

To see how this relates to computer security, download the pdf linked in the article. After it exposes the methods of exploitation, it gives examples of internet computer scams. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-754.pdf http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-754.pdf

wiredfool 12y ago
Does it expose the methods of exploitation using any of the convenient Acrobat bugs?

yander12 12y ago

> trust in authority, a desire to act in the same way as our friends, or a tendency to act in a consistent way Sounds like how most people get suckered by politicians, over and over again.

protonfish 12y ago
The problem is their (and others) attitude that > ...the authority principle, for example, is actually very helpful for surviving peacefully in human society Is it really? But isn't unquestioning obedience to authority the key ingredient to war, corruption and genocide? Maybe trust in authority is necessary in children but adults need to accept the responsibility to think for themselves.

amirmc 12y ago

Cialdini's book on Influence seems relevant here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence:_Science_and_Practice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence:_Science_and_Practice Edit: It's referenced in the article but that link points to Amazon.

sogen 12y ago
Great book. btw the Dalai Lama giving flowers at the airport was a great example.
- kschua 12y ago
  It's the Hare Krishna not the Dalai Lama
  - sogen 12y ago
    oops my bad, thanks!

tokenadult 12y ago

The whole article is an interesting read, and as another comment here already pointed out, it links to other good online content. I think that the article's point about online security is a healthy reminder for many Hacker News readers: "The seven persuasion principles might be as old as the hills, but Stajano says they are often ignored by security experts, who are as likely to blame security breaches on the people using their systems as they are to blame the scammers. 'Too many security professionals think: users are such a pain – my system would be super-secure if only users behaved in the proper way,' he says. He is trying to persuade experts that they need to make security systems that work in harmony with – not despite - the way we behave." We have to deal with human nature as it is, not as we wish it to be, if we are to make progress in computer and Internet security.

PhantomGremlin 12y ago
> We have to deal with human nature as it is, not as we wish it to be Yes, exactly. Security professionals should be forced to write this out in longhand about 100 times every week, just so they don't forget. I know many people who have used computers for 20 or 30 years, but who are still "clueless" in my "computer nerd" opinion. That's because normal users just want to use computers as a tool to solve problems they're interested in. Normal people are interested in the destination, computer nerds are interested in the journey.

mathattack 12y ago

This reminded me of my most recent car purchase. I ran out of time (long weekend that I allocated to the search had ended) and couldn't call them out by saying, "I know I don't have to buy it at this price now." Their customer service seemed genuinely surprised when I slammed the sales process in my post-sales feedback.

scotty79 12y ago

Each time I've been conned was due to me wishing things beyond what I know is real. I was conning myself. Conman was just there to take my money.

jrmiii 12y ago
Umm, is this a recurrent problem for you? How many times have you been conned?
- protonfish 12y ago
  If you don't think you've been conned thousands of times in your life then you aren't paying attention. What do you think advertising is? And don't get me started on preachers and realtors.
- scotty79 12y ago
  I think in total, in my 35 years of life I've lost in total less than one month of my income at current rate. So not a problem. Just a source of interesting observations.
agumonkey 12y ago
I have the same issue with 2nd hand items on the web. Always trying to find unrealistic prices, then praying for it to not be a busted. Often ends in 'well I wanted to see' hindsight justification.

jamesbrownuhh 12y ago

Side note - articles like these used to be completely blocked in the UK, but now seem to have become accessible, with the following caveat just below the banner ad: "This website is made by BBC Worldwide. BBC Worldwide is a commercial company that is owned by the BBC (and just the BBC.) No money from the licence fee was used to create this website. Instead this website is supported by advertising outside the UK. The profits we make from it go back to BBC programme-makers to help fund great new BBC programmes"

jvanstry 12y ago

Stopped reading at "Intelligence and experience offers no protection against scammers, says Modic." Come on.

SilasX 12y ago
I think they meant "it's no guarantee against..."