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The Man Who Smuggles Trader Joe’s into Canada

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slaven 12y ago
The store is a must visit if you come to Vancouver - it's in Kitsilano so you get to see one of our trendier neighbourhoods as well.
- frankus 12y ago
  I actually live a few blocks from the Trader Joe's that serves all of Western Canada (Bellingham), but I'm going to stop by next time I'm up there.
jsnk 12y ago
Canadian consumers need to open their eyes about how their beloved local retailers and their government are guaging them shamelessly. Canada and US has pretty much no difference in infrastructure in transportation, yet Canadian consumers perioidically pay 10% - 20% more than average Americans on consumer goods. Canadians must start demanding to know why this happens from their retailers and governments of all levels. Whether you like it or not, for vast majority of people, consumption power is THE most important indicator of quality of life, NOT healthcare, NOT social welfare system and NOT even democratic political system. People's ability to buy things at will is what regular people care about the most. And yet, this issue is never on the table. I fail to understand why.
- jarek 12y ago
  > Whether you like it or not, for vast majority of people, consumption power is THE most important indicator of quality of life, NOT healthcare, NOT social welfare system and NOT even democratic political system. People's ability to buy things at will is what regular people care about the most. And yet, this issue is never on the table. I fail to understand why. By never being on the table, isn't the issue by default not what people care about the most?
  - imanaccount247 12y ago
    He didn't say it was what people care about the most, he said it was the most important indicators of quality of life. Most people don't know the issue exists, they have no idea how badly Canadians are being ripped off on virtually everything we buy.
    - jarek 12y ago
      > He didn't say it was what people care about the most How do you interpret the quote "People's ability to buy things at will is what regular people care about the most"? > Most people don't know the issue exists I really doubt this. There are multiple "stuff is more expensive in Canada than in the States" stories in the media every shopping season. One possible reason for the issue never being on the table is that it's not actually that important. Ask Vancouverites about a move to Seattle and food prices will be a small irritant but nowhere near the deciding factor - entirely dwarfed on the pro side by jobs and housing prices. Ask Seattleites what their quality of life is and you'll probably hear about traffic and crime way before Trader Joe's.
      - imanaccount247 12y ago
        I have asked people though. And almost none of them have any idea that they are paying 25-50% more for everything they buy. I have literally never seen a story on "stuff is more expensive in Canada" in the media, ever.
        jarek 12y ago
        > I have literally never seen a story on "stuff is more expensive in Canada" in the media, ever. https://www.google.com/search?q=cbc+canada+retail+prices https://www.google.com/search?q=cbc+canada+retail+prices stories from 2014, 2013, 2011... If CBC isn't your thing, it was in the Sun too: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/04/bridging-the-canada-us-price-gap-too-much-for-tories http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/04/bridging-the-canada-us-... Also we went from jsnk's 10-20% to your 25-50%. If a third person chimes in, we might learn Canadians pay double.
- gvb 12y ago
  [F]or vast majority of people, consumption power is THE most important indicator of quality of life, NOT healthcare, NOT social welfare system and NOT even democratic political system. The mark-up is the cost of healthcare and other social programs, not gouging. TANSTAAFL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as_...
jonny_eh 12y ago
What's Trader Joe's problem? Isn't this a good thing for them? They should be paying the guy!
- giarc 12y ago
  What if Pirate Joe's does not handle perishable food properly and makes people sick. This gets reported as "Trader Joe's X is making people sick!" when in fact it was because of Pirate Joe's poor quality control (for example).
  - SG- 12y ago
    I could see that being the case if he was pretending to be Trader Joe's but he's clearly going out of his way with the store name and atmosphere and story telling to indicate what's actually going on.
    - giarc 12y ago
      No because the product is still labelled as Trader Joe's. So when a public health inspector calls you to say, what have you eaten? and you say "Trader Joe's brand X". And they find 15 people with the same symptoms and same food, it is likely that the food will get recalled.
      - SG- 12y ago
        It doesn't really happen that way and blame isn't just a wild guess and who's responsible.
  - anon4 12y ago
    Then they sue the reporter for slander and/or libel. Then the guy who got poisoned sues Pirate Joe.
- sliverstorm 12y ago
  When has losing control of your product & brand been a good thing?
crusso 12y ago
I was just looking the other day to see if I could get Trader Joe's sunflower seeds online. Their sunflower seeds are far and away the best I've found. I buy 10 bags at a time whenever I'm at their nearest store that's 30 minutes away. I can understand how there would be a niche market for their products in areas without direct access to the stores.
tjradcliffe 12y ago
The headline is inaccurate: no smuggling is involved. Trader Joe's is a great brand name: they sell OK products and have developed an incredibly loyal customer base. Pirate Joe's is trading on that popularity. I'd love to understand the business logic behind Trader Joe's response to this. It's not like they'd have to open up a full national operation. Franchising in Canada is fairly simple and straightforward, so it's hard to believe that licensing Canadian franchises wouldn't be a more profitable approach to this than suing Pirate Joe's. There may be hidden costs, but clearly things like creating Canadian-compliant labeling is a pretty small barrier. So as a business strategy: a) refusing to operate in a territory where there is demonstrable demand for your products and b) spending oodles of money suing people who are fulfilling customer demand for your products in that territory seems like the least sensible thing to do. It would be interesting to see the economic reasoning behind it, which has never been clearly explicated ("Trademark protection" clearly won't suffice, as this article points out.)
- cracell 12y ago
  Trader Joe's is a privately held company and doesn't franchise (http://www.traderjoes.com/about/general-faq.asp#Franchise http://www.traderjoes.com/about/general-faq.asp#Franchise). Seems like starting to franchise would not necessarily fit with their long term growth goals. I'd assume this is mostly just about brand control. A store selling their products that they don't control will not necessarily have the experience they want for their brand. Even if they can't shut it down, just harassing them can prevent the store from growing very large and causing issues with their brand perception. That said more media coverage around this could paint Trader Joe's as a bully and be more damaging to their brand than an unauthorized seller.
  - bduerst 12y ago
    That's doubtful. If the Girl Scouts started cracking down on cookie resellers, I doubt people would side with the resellers. With the reselling of groceries you run in to quality control issues, where Pirate Joe's can be selling expired Trader Joe's goods and making people sick, which can make Trader Joe's liable for harm.
jewbacca 12y ago
jnsk: you are shadowbanned (but solid point)
nostromo 12y ago
People do this on Amazon all the time. Trader Joes: http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=trader%20joes http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=trader%20joes Ikea: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?field-keywords=ikea http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?field-keywords=ikea Both on .com and .ca. Note the huge markup.
- mrpollo 12y ago
  thanks for that, I think I'm about to spend some money, Trader Joes + Amazon Prime == fastest way to get my money
NovaS1X 12y ago
I just moved to Vancouver this month and I only live a few blocks away from this place. Thanks for the article; I'll go there after work!
- tjradcliffe 12y ago
  Check out the fish place just down the block from it while you're there. Excellent fresh salmon in-season, and other good stuff too.
  - NovaS1X 12y ago
    Will do; Thanks!
vijayboyapati 12y ago
There has been a long and storied tradition of smuggling in the Americas going back to before the founding of the republic (John Hancock, president of the first Congress, was a notorious smuggler in his day). Here are some examples that always make me smile: A letter from British Customs official writing a complaint home on the nature of his work: "In this country an officer of the customs ought to see his way very clear before he ventures to make a seizure. Because he sure of having every possible difficulty thrown in his way. He is looked upon as an enemy to the community and treated accordingly. And whether he succeeds or not, he is sure never to be forgiven, and thinks himself fortunate if his punishment is deferred to a future day." [1] Joseph Harrison, collector for the port of Boston: "Large quantities of dutiable goods have been smuggled in a most audacious manner. But publicly known and talked of, such is the temper of the times that no legal information could be obtained so as to prosecute or make any seizure of them. " And finally a letter from the owner of a small smuggling vessel to the Captain of the Speed Well, a government ship that had confiscated his ship, taken his goods and seized his men. "Sir: Damn thee and God damn thy two purblind eyes thou bugger, thou death-looking son of a bitch. O, that I had been there (with my company) for thy sake when thou tookest them men of mine on board the Speedwell cutter on Monday, the 14th of December. I would drove thee and thy gang to Hell where thou belongest, thou Devil incarnet. Go down, thou Hell Hound, unto they kennel below and bathe thyself in that sulphurous lake that has been so long prepared for such as thee, for it is time the world was rid of such a monster. Thou art no man but a devil, thou fiend. O Lucifer, I hope thou will soon fall into Hell like a star from the sky, there to lie unpitied and unrelented of any for ever and ever, which God grant of his infinite mercy. Amen."[2] [1]http://www.cambridgehistory.org/content/boston-tea-party-and-american-revolution http://www.cambridgehistory.org/content/boston-tea-party-and... [2]http://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/excursions/americans-attitudes-smuggling-colonial-america http://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/excursions...
- DanBC 12y ago
  BBC Radio Four programme "voices from the old bailey" had an episode about smuggling. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04d4sbs http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04d4sbs The BBC website also gives instructions on navigating the Old Bailey Online website.
doublealpha 12y ago
Point Roberts, Canada?
- jboy55 12y ago
  Yeah, since I moved down, did Canada invade and take control of the gas stations?
  - sergers 12y ago
    Yes. Only reason I have nexus pass lol Oh and my shipping mailbox at tsb shipping
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slowing13 12y ago
I have a hard time understanding how TJ or lawyers can pretend there is a case here. Companies cannnot dictate what is legal or not. If you cannot resell a good that you legally buy, then you kill commerce. And Craigslist can shut down. Do i need an authorization from manufacturers for my yard sale? Wondering why it even went to the Supreme Court...
- tim333 12y ago
  I agree but Levis did win a case stopping Tesco selling their jeans in the UK. Not under UK law but the stupid European Court of Justice sided with them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1261829.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1261829.stm
- _delirium 12y ago
  They're alleging a trademark violation in his use of the name "Pirate Joe's" to sell Trader Joe's products, not that reselling them is itself illegal. The case that went to the Supreme Court is unrelated to either Trader Joe's or this guy; the article is just juxtaposing it because it was also a case about international resale. But it was about someone importing international editions of textbooks for resale in the U.S., and the main arguments in the case turned on interpretation of a totally different area of law, copyright (so it's not really all that relevant here).
jnaglick 12y ago
Possibly an interesting article but after reading 4 sentences my central nervous system liquefied and started dripping out of various orifices.
dobbsbob 12y ago
Corner stores in BC are typically selling Costco bought merch from Bellingham. http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/video-canadian-shoppers-swarm-bellingham-costco/vDx2N/ http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/video-canadian-shoppers-sw... No gov subsidies in Canada for milk/cheese so cheaper to buy American products at retail price. There was also a ring of thieves in Canada who imported wrecked cars from the US as scrap metal and ripped the VIN numbers from them, then attached them to stolen cars to sell. They made est 200 million doing this over 10 years.
- refurb 12y ago
  My understanding is that cheese is more expensive in Canada because of the Canadian Dairy Commission. They place quotas on farmers in terms of how much they can produce to keep the price of milk and cheese high enough so farmers can make a tidy profit. "The Canadian Dairy Commission is a Crown corporation which was established in 1966 with the mandate of coordinating federal and provincial dairy policies and creating a control mechanism for milk production which would help stabilize revenues and avoid costly surpluses." [1]http://www.cdc-ccl.gc.ca/CDC/index-eng.php http://www.cdc-ccl.gc.ca/CDC/index-eng.php
  - lucio 12y ago
    how sad. Is there are also Bread Comission? a "Noodle Joint Advisory Task Force"? Canadians do not see a problem with a committee dictating how much milk a farmer can produce?
    - Zombieball 12y ago
      I believe the US hands out on the order of $3-4B in subsidies to dairy farmers each year. The Canadian dairy industry is unsubsidized. While dairy costs significantly more in Canada I suppose the government is still quite happy with the outcome.
      - drpgq 12y ago
        As far as I can tell, the government isn't happy with the situation, but is terrified of the farmers.
hammock 12y ago
Are there not tariffs or import restrictions that he is subject to? I recall reading stroies about people taking suitcases full of iPads down to South American and getting "busted."
- gnopgnip 12y ago
  NAFTA makes most products he is importing free of tariffs
byerley 12y ago
I know this is a serious site for serious people, but I lost it at the "irate Joe's" explanation.
sinwave 12y ago
If I'm not mistaken, this site has pivoted remarkably since I first visited it. Didn't it used to be a tool for determining appropriate market prices for used items?
- hayksaakian 12y ago
  Yes, you are correct http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/26/priceonomics-data-services/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/26/priceonomics-data-services/
- istjohn 12y ago
  If you go to their homepage (http://priceonomics.com http://priceonomics.com) you'll see that they still are in the "data crawling" business. The blog is used to get visitors to their site.
mscarborough 12y ago
FTA: Hallatt says he still has a lot of respect for Trader Joe’s, and “what they’re trying to do with food.” He still says he’s running the store out of love for the label, and, he says, finding Coulombe’s quote is one of the things that made him persevere through the lawsuit. Dude, you're doing it for the money. And if a lawyer's quote got you to keep going in a lawsuit, you're definitely doing it for the money. Sorry, this entire article is parroting a very well-constructed (but seemingly BS) storyline. "he still goes to the border", "waits in a white unmarked van", "he envies cabbies salaries", etc. His ultimate goal is to bring Trader Joe's to Canada? Just doing it to advertise for the Trader Joe's label? Sorry man, you found the grey area you wanted to (self-admittedly within a few minutes) and then kept going.
- jerf 12y ago
  First, even if so, so what? That's neither illegal nor immoral. Second, while we associate the word "smuggling" with illegal activities in which the smuggler receives compensation for engaging in highly risky activities, he's not going to get any sort of that in this situation. If he's even remotely competitive with the Safeway across the street, as he claims, then there is absolutely no way this is some sort of "rake in the dough" operation. He may be making a modest living but there's no good path to wealth here. So, if as I think your message implies you think he's really raking it in and covering over that with some good PR moves, I'd suggest reconsidering. I do not see an economic solution in which he could possibly making very much money. To be honest I'm surprised he can run this at a profit at all.
- unethical_ban 12y ago
  "Lawyer" -> Founder of TJ's. No shit he's doing it for the money: everyone tends to do their job, at least in part, for the money. But I think it's very presumptuous of you to assume he has no loyalty or respect for the brand. You also seem to think that he's "getting what he deserves", as if what he's doing is wrong. It isn't.
noonespecial 12y ago
Usually when someone gets other people to buy millions worth of your product who otherwise wouldn't it's called advertising.
marquis 12y ago
Island nations thrive on this kind of economy: it's called "parallel imports" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_import http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_import. Australia and New Zealand would feel like 3rd world nations without this (no or expensive opportunity to buy foreign goods that have no local distribution). Amusing to see this on a land border.
- melloclello 12y ago
  It's worth mentioning that now that National have won the election in New Zealand, it's likely they'll sign onto the TPPA which will effectively ban parallel importing.
listic 12y ago
I fail to understand the grey area that grey imports exist in, but I wish I could. I live in Russia and e.g. Apple products are notoriously over-priced here, so lots of local resellers make profit by doing grey imports. iPhones and iPads imported from practically any other contry turn out to be cheaper, even from nearby Finland, which, being Euro-zone country, is not cheap by American standards at all. Note that mobile operators in Russia are not in a position to subsidize phones, so all iPhones are being bought at full price. Mobile operators tried to sell iPhones, too, but could not compete and all balked out, taking great losses. At the same time, prices for most PC hardware seem to be at about Amazon US level. Bizzare? Sure. On the other hand, I am a brony and got interested in My Little Pony Collectible Card Game http://mlpccg.wikia.com/wiki/My_Little_Pony_Collectible_Card_Game_Wiki http://mlpccg.wikia.com/wiki/My_Little_Pony_Collectible_Card... (apparently, it doesn't suck? I was at a con in Finland and played with some enthusiastic fans there). No local stores carry the game here, and the developer (EnterPLAY) is very reluctantly replying my persistent inquiries. The best I got from them was: It’s difficult for me to officially support an event when I can’t officially sell the game into that country. Exactly what is stopping them from selling the game officially in Russia? Is it is the lack of interest from the retailers, or some sort of embargo, or legal obstacle? Maybe I will have better luck 1) buying a couple dozen of decks on Amazon, 2) organizing an impromptu unofficial tournament in a friendly board game club 3) convincing a club to start buying the game themselves and maybe then the developers will take interest and maybe support this all officially, or just talk to me? As a fan, the worst I can lose so far is the cost of a couple dozen decks, am I right?
- T-hawk 12y ago
  Holy Celestia, a fellow MLP CCG brony on HN. We've really got all types here. The constraint on global distribution is Hasbro, who owns the MLP intellectual property and chooses to license it out on a per country basis. Enterplay is not Hasbro and cannot take and sell the MLP characters where Hasbro doesn't permit it. The Enterplay game developers can't help this, they are far removed from this situation, it's all at the corporate management level. Hasbro has an odd relationship with MLP CCG in the first place. Hasbro owns Wizards of the Coast and is fearful of introducing competition with their own other successful CCGs.
dang 12y ago
> The headline is inaccurate: no smuggling is involved. Borderline case, but it's probably ok to use "smuggling" as shorthand for "importing illicitly".
- TillE 12y ago
  What exactly is illicit about it? Except when used in jest, all of these terms explicitly suggest illegal avoidance of tariffs. If that's not the case here, you really shouldn't use them.
  - dang 12y ago
    > What exactly is illicit about it? That it's unauthorized. Let's not pretend this is your average importing operation. (Not a condemnation; I well know the hardship of having to do without Trader Joe's in Canada.) > all of these terms explicitly suggest illegal avoidance of tariffs "Illicit" does not imply that, which is why I used it.
    - stickfigure 12y ago
      Illicit - adj - "forbidden by law, rules, or custom" Does not seem to apply here.
      - dang 12y ago
        Of course it applies. An "illicit affair" is hardly illegal: https://www.google.com/webhp#q=illicit+affair https://www.google.com/webhp#q=illicit+affair. Any good dictionary will give this to you as a secondary meaning and probably cite that phrase as well. But if you really want to understand a word, look at its root. The root of "illicit" is the same "lic" as in "license"—and unlicensed reselling is precisely what the story is about. I'm going to detach this subthread now, to demote it as off-topic without punishing the root comment.
  - DanBC 12y ago
    It's a grey market import. While some people hate the concept it has been enforced in some courts - the Tesco vs Levi Jeans case is one example from England. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1261829.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1261829.stm
unclebunkers 12y ago
I'm confused. I thought if I bought anything, I'm allowed to do with it as I will? First sale doctrine, which limits the rights trademark holders had over their products once they've been paid.
- ubernostrum 12y ago
  Nothing in the article says otherwise. The legal complications are in importing all the stuff, making sure you're not perceived as confusing/diluting someone else's brand name, complying with a different country's labeling requirements, and most of all obtaining the goods since Trader Joe's has the right to refuse to sell to "Pirate Joe's" shoppers.
  - unclebunkers 12y ago
    Importing the stuff, complying with Canada's labelling has nothing to do with Trader Joes. That has to do with the Canadian government, and they don't seem to get too sticky about stuff like this. Trader Joes has a right to refuse people who shop there, but again, you can't sue someone for trying to buy from you. Trespassing perhaps. Stalking? Which brings us to your point about dilution of a brand. They lose that right when they sell it. It's called the first sale doctrine. HBO can stop Netflix from showing Game of Thrones streaming, but they cannot stop them from renting the video out. So, rather than listing things that aren't valid, could someone explain why isn't this covered by the first sale doctrine?
    - ubernostrum 12y ago
      The first sale doctrine does not let you do business under a name that is confusingly similar to someone else's trademark.
      - unclebunkers 12y ago
        If Pirate Joes is a Trademark violation, then every single small business that includes a persons name is a trademark violation. Regardless, settle a name change, and done. My point is there is zero need to be litigious here, and there is no logical legal justification. Trader Joeys, clear trademark violation. Pirate Joes, no fucking way. Not in this country.
golemotron 12y ago
Frankly, I'm stunned by the number of commenters in this thread who imply that companies ought to be able to prevent resale of their merchandise in order to control their brands. What sort of capitalism is this where you don't have ownership rights in what you buy?
- TeMPOraL 12y ago
  Service economy. That's what happened with software, that's what is happening with books, movies and videogames, and oh I am so waiting for some CFO to figure out how to turn groceries into a service.
SethMurphy 12y ago
While most see Trader Joe's an upstart grocery chain, it is important to note they are owned by the founder[s] of Aldi a huge grocery store chain. They were two brothers (one died recently) who had a very clear world domination plan with their grocery stores. Essentially they split the globe among them and each controlled the stores in their territory. Here is the Wiki stating it better than I could here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi
- JoeAltmaier 12y ago
  If I remember, they were one chain and split over the issue of sales of tobacco and alcohol?
  - TheGeminon 12y ago
    I thought they split because the original owner died and left the two halves to his two sons.
ajlburke 12y ago
One funny side of this is that a fair number of Trader Joe's "house brand" items have been available as "President's Choice" or "Black Label" in Canadian Loblaws stores - often both made/imported by SunFresh of Mississauga and then rebranded. (Note: I caught onto this several years ago and haven't been to a TJ in a while - it's entirely possible TJ's and Loblaws have changed their suppliers since.)
vhdlGuru 12y ago
I don't get it, either - instead of suing the man, they should have just hired him and extended their business.
kinofcain 12y ago
The hand-written sign in front of the store is priceless: "Grocers Without Borders"

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

The store is a must visit if you come to Vancouver - it's in Kitsilano so you get to see one of our trendier neighbourhoods as well.

frankus 12y ago
I actually live a few blocks from the Trader Joe's that serves all of Western Canada (Bellingham), but I'm going to stop by next time I'm up there.

jsnk 12y ago

Canadian consumers need to open their eyes about how their beloved local retailers and their government are guaging them shamelessly. Canada and US has pretty much no difference in infrastructure in transportation, yet Canadian consumers perioidically pay 10% - 20% more than average Americans on consumer goods. Canadians must start demanding to know why this happens from their retailers and governments of all levels. Whether you like it or not, for vast majority of people, consumption power is THE most important indicator of quality of life, NOT healthcare, NOT social welfare system and NOT even democratic political system. People's ability to buy things at will is what regular people care about the most. And yet, this issue is never on the table. I fail to understand why.

jarek 12y ago
> Whether you like it or not, for vast majority of people, consumption power is THE most important indicator of quality of life, NOT healthcare, NOT social welfare system and NOT even democratic political system. People's ability to buy things at will is what regular people care about the most. And yet, this issue is never on the table. I fail to understand why. By never being on the table, isn't the issue by default not what people care about the most?
- imanaccount247 12y ago
  He didn't say it was what people care about the most, he said it was the most important indicators of quality of life. Most people don't know the issue exists, they have no idea how badly Canadians are being ripped off on virtually everything we buy.
  - jarek 12y ago
    > He didn't say it was what people care about the most How do you interpret the quote "People's ability to buy things at will is what regular people care about the most"? > Most people don't know the issue exists I really doubt this. There are multiple "stuff is more expensive in Canada than in the States" stories in the media every shopping season. One possible reason for the issue never being on the table is that it's not actually that important. Ask Vancouverites about a move to Seattle and food prices will be a small irritant but nowhere near the deciding factor - entirely dwarfed on the pro side by jobs and housing prices. Ask Seattleites what their quality of life is and you'll probably hear about traffic and crime way before Trader Joe's.
    - imanaccount247 12y ago
      I have asked people though. And almost none of them have any idea that they are paying 25-50% more for everything they buy. I have literally never seen a story on "stuff is more expensive in Canada" in the media, ever.
      - jarek 12y ago
        > I have literally never seen a story on "stuff is more expensive in Canada" in the media, ever. https://www.google.com/search?q=cbc+canada+retail+prices https://www.google.com/search?q=cbc+canada+retail+prices stories from 2014, 2013, 2011... If CBC isn't your thing, it was in the Sun too: http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/04/bridging-the-canada-us-price-gap-too-much-for-tories http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/04/bridging-the-canada-us-... Also we went from jsnk's 10-20% to your 25-50%. If a third person chimes in, we might learn Canadians pay double.
gvb 12y ago
[F]or vast majority of people, consumption power is THE most important indicator of quality of life, NOT healthcare, NOT social welfare system and NOT even democratic political system. The mark-up is the cost of healthcare and other social programs, not gouging. TANSTAAFL. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_ain%27t_no_such_thing_as_...

jonny_eh 12y ago

What's Trader Joe's problem? Isn't this a good thing for them? They should be paying the guy!

giarc 12y ago
What if Pirate Joe's does not handle perishable food properly and makes people sick. This gets reported as "Trader Joe's X is making people sick!" when in fact it was because of Pirate Joe's poor quality control (for example).
- SG- 12y ago
  I could see that being the case if he was pretending to be Trader Joe's but he's clearly going out of his way with the store name and atmosphere and story telling to indicate what's actually going on.
  - giarc 12y ago
    No because the product is still labelled as Trader Joe's. So when a public health inspector calls you to say, what have you eaten? and you say "Trader Joe's brand X". And they find 15 people with the same symptoms and same food, it is likely that the food will get recalled.
    - SG- 12y ago
      It doesn't really happen that way and blame isn't just a wild guess and who's responsible.
- anon4 12y ago
  Then they sue the reporter for slander and/or libel. Then the guy who got poisoned sues Pirate Joe.
sliverstorm 12y ago
When has losing control of your product & brand been a good thing?

crusso 12y ago

I was just looking the other day to see if I could get Trader Joe's sunflower seeds online. Their sunflower seeds are far and away the best I've found. I buy 10 bags at a time whenever I'm at their nearest store that's 30 minutes away. I can understand how there would be a niche market for their products in areas without direct access to the stores.

tjradcliffe 12y ago

The headline is inaccurate: no smuggling is involved. Trader Joe's is a great brand name: they sell OK products and have developed an incredibly loyal customer base. Pirate Joe's is trading on that popularity. I'd love to understand the business logic behind Trader Joe's response to this. It's not like they'd have to open up a full national operation. Franchising in Canada is fairly simple and straightforward, so it's hard to believe that licensing Canadian franchises wouldn't be a more profitable approach to this than suing Pirate Joe's. There may be hidden costs, but clearly things like creating Canadian-compliant labeling is a pretty small barrier. So as a business strategy: a) refusing to operate in a territory where there is demonstrable demand for your products and b) spending oodles of money suing people who are fulfilling customer demand for your products in that territory seems like the least sensible thing to do. It would be interesting to see the economic reasoning behind it, which has never been clearly explicated ("Trademark protection" clearly won't suffice, as this article points out.)

cracell 12y ago
Trader Joe's is a privately held company and doesn't franchise (http://www.traderjoes.com/about/general-faq.asp#Franchise http://www.traderjoes.com/about/general-faq.asp#Franchise). Seems like starting to franchise would not necessarily fit with their long term growth goals. I'd assume this is mostly just about brand control. A store selling their products that they don't control will not necessarily have the experience they want for their brand. Even if they can't shut it down, just harassing them can prevent the store from growing very large and causing issues with their brand perception. That said more media coverage around this could paint Trader Joe's as a bully and be more damaging to their brand than an unauthorized seller.
- bduerst 12y ago
  That's doubtful. If the Girl Scouts started cracking down on cookie resellers, I doubt people would side with the resellers. With the reselling of groceries you run in to quality control issues, where Pirate Joe's can be selling expired Trader Joe's goods and making people sick, which can make Trader Joe's liable for harm.

jewbacca 12y ago

jnsk: you are shadowbanned (but solid point)

nostromo 12y ago

People do this on Amazon all the time. Trader Joes: http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=trader%20joes http://www.amazon.com/s/?field-keywords=trader%20joes Ikea: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?field-keywords=ikea http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?field-keywords=ikea Both on .com and .ca. Note the huge markup.

mrpollo 12y ago
thanks for that, I think I'm about to spend some money, Trader Joes + Amazon Prime == fastest way to get my money

NovaS1X 12y ago

I just moved to Vancouver this month and I only live a few blocks away from this place. Thanks for the article; I'll go there after work!

tjradcliffe 12y ago
Check out the fish place just down the block from it while you're there. Excellent fresh salmon in-season, and other good stuff too.
- NovaS1X 12y ago
  Will do; Thanks!

vijayboyapati 12y ago

There has been a long and storied tradition of smuggling in the Americas going back to before the founding of the republic (John Hancock, president of the first Congress, was a notorious smuggler in his day). Here are some examples that always make me smile: A letter from British Customs official writing a complaint home on the nature of his work: "In this country an officer of the customs ought to see his way very clear before he ventures to make a seizure. Because he sure of having every possible difficulty thrown in his way. He is looked upon as an enemy to the community and treated accordingly. And whether he succeeds or not, he is sure never to be forgiven, and thinks himself fortunate if his punishment is deferred to a future day." [1] Joseph Harrison, collector for the port of Boston: "Large quantities of dutiable goods have been smuggled in a most audacious manner. But publicly known and talked of, such is the temper of the times that no legal information could be obtained so as to prosecute or make any seizure of them. " And finally a letter from the owner of a small smuggling vessel to the Captain of the Speed Well, a government ship that had confiscated his ship, taken his goods and seized his men. "Sir: Damn thee and God damn thy two purblind eyes thou bugger, thou death-looking son of a bitch. O, that I had been there (with my company) for thy sake when thou tookest them men of mine on board the Speedwell cutter on Monday, the 14th of December. I would drove thee and thy gang to Hell where thou belongest, thou Devil incarnet. Go down, thou Hell Hound, unto they kennel below and bathe thyself in that sulphurous lake that has been so long prepared for such as thee, for it is time the world was rid of such a monster. Thou art no man but a devil, thou fiend. O Lucifer, I hope thou will soon fall into Hell like a star from the sky, there to lie unpitied and unrelented of any for ever and ever, which God grant of his infinite mercy. Amen."[2] [1]http://www.cambridgehistory.org/content/boston-tea-party-and-american-revolution http://www.cambridgehistory.org/content/boston-tea-party-and... [2]http://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/excursions/americans-attitudes-smuggling-colonial-america http://www.libertarianism.org/publications/essays/excursions...

DanBC 12y ago
BBC Radio Four programme "voices from the old bailey" had an episode about smuggling. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04d4sbs http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04d4sbs The BBC website also gives instructions on navigating the Old Bailey Online website.

doublealpha 12y ago

Point Roberts, Canada?

jboy55 12y ago
Yeah, since I moved down, did Canada invade and take control of the gas stations?
- sergers 12y ago
  Yes. Only reason I have nexus pass lol Oh and my shipping mailbox at tsb shipping

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slowing13 12y ago

I have a hard time understanding how TJ or lawyers can pretend there is a case here. Companies cannnot dictate what is legal or not. If you cannot resell a good that you legally buy, then you kill commerce. And Craigslist can shut down. Do i need an authorization from manufacturers for my yard sale? Wondering why it even went to the Supreme Court...

tim333 12y ago
I agree but Levis did win a case stopping Tesco selling their jeans in the UK. Not under UK law but the stupid European Court of Justice sided with them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1261829.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1261829.stm
_delirium 12y ago
They're alleging a trademark violation in his use of the name "Pirate Joe's" to sell Trader Joe's products, not that reselling them is itself illegal. The case that went to the Supreme Court is unrelated to either Trader Joe's or this guy; the article is just juxtaposing it because it was also a case about international resale. But it was about someone importing international editions of textbooks for resale in the U.S., and the main arguments in the case turned on interpretation of a totally different area of law, copyright (so it's not really all that relevant here).

jnaglick 12y ago

Possibly an interesting article but after reading 4 sentences my central nervous system liquefied and started dripping out of various orifices.

dobbsbob 12y ago

Corner stores in BC are typically selling Costco bought merch from Bellingham. http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/video-canadian-shoppers-swarm-bellingham-costco/vDx2N/ http://www.kirotv.com/videos/news/video-canadian-shoppers-sw... No gov subsidies in Canada for milk/cheese so cheaper to buy American products at retail price. There was also a ring of thieves in Canada who imported wrecked cars from the US as scrap metal and ripped the VIN numbers from them, then attached them to stolen cars to sell. They made est 200 million doing this over 10 years.

refurb 12y ago
My understanding is that cheese is more expensive in Canada because of the Canadian Dairy Commission. They place quotas on farmers in terms of how much they can produce to keep the price of milk and cheese high enough so farmers can make a tidy profit. "The Canadian Dairy Commission is a Crown corporation which was established in 1966 with the mandate of coordinating federal and provincial dairy policies and creating a control mechanism for milk production which would help stabilize revenues and avoid costly surpluses." [1]http://www.cdc-ccl.gc.ca/CDC/index-eng.php http://www.cdc-ccl.gc.ca/CDC/index-eng.php
- lucio 12y ago
  how sad. Is there are also Bread Comission? a "Noodle Joint Advisory Task Force"? Canadians do not see a problem with a committee dictating how much milk a farmer can produce?
  - Zombieball 12y ago
    I believe the US hands out on the order of $3-4B in subsidies to dairy farmers each year. The Canadian dairy industry is unsubsidized. While dairy costs significantly more in Canada I suppose the government is still quite happy with the outcome.
    - drpgq 12y ago
      As far as I can tell, the government isn't happy with the situation, but is terrified of the farmers.

hammock 12y ago

Are there not tariffs or import restrictions that he is subject to? I recall reading stroies about people taking suitcases full of iPads down to South American and getting "busted."

gnopgnip 12y ago
NAFTA makes most products he is importing free of tariffs

byerley 12y ago

I know this is a serious site for serious people, but I lost it at the "irate Joe's" explanation.

sinwave 12y ago

If I'm not mistaken, this site has pivoted remarkably since I first visited it. Didn't it used to be a tool for determining appropriate market prices for used items?

hayksaakian 12y ago
Yes, you are correct http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/26/priceonomics-data-services/ http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/26/priceonomics-data-services/
istjohn 12y ago
If you go to their homepage (http://priceonomics.com http://priceonomics.com) you'll see that they still are in the "data crawling" business. The blog is used to get visitors to their site.

mscarborough 12y ago

FTA: Hallatt says he still has a lot of respect for Trader Joe’s, and “what they’re trying to do with food.” He still says he’s running the store out of love for the label, and, he says, finding Coulombe’s quote is one of the things that made him persevere through the lawsuit. Dude, you're doing it for the money. And if a lawyer's quote got you to keep going in a lawsuit, you're definitely doing it for the money. Sorry, this entire article is parroting a very well-constructed (but seemingly BS) storyline. "he still goes to the border", "waits in a white unmarked van", "he envies cabbies salaries", etc. His ultimate goal is to bring Trader Joe's to Canada? Just doing it to advertise for the Trader Joe's label? Sorry man, you found the grey area you wanted to (self-admittedly within a few minutes) and then kept going.

jerf 12y ago
First, even if so, so what? That's neither illegal nor immoral. Second, while we associate the word "smuggling" with illegal activities in which the smuggler receives compensation for engaging in highly risky activities, he's not going to get any sort of that in this situation. If he's even remotely competitive with the Safeway across the street, as he claims, then there is absolutely no way this is some sort of "rake in the dough" operation. He may be making a modest living but there's no good path to wealth here. So, if as I think your message implies you think he's really raking it in and covering over that with some good PR moves, I'd suggest reconsidering. I do not see an economic solution in which he could possibly making very much money. To be honest I'm surprised he can run this at a profit at all.
unethical_ban 12y ago
"Lawyer" -> Founder of TJ's. No shit he's doing it for the money: everyone tends to do their job, at least in part, for the money. But I think it's very presumptuous of you to assume he has no loyalty or respect for the brand. You also seem to think that he's "getting what he deserves", as if what he's doing is wrong. It isn't.

noonespecial 12y ago

Usually when someone gets other people to buy millions worth of your product who otherwise wouldn't it's called advertising.

marquis 12y ago

Island nations thrive on this kind of economy: it's called "parallel imports" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_import http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_import. Australia and New Zealand would feel like 3rd world nations without this (no or expensive opportunity to buy foreign goods that have no local distribution). Amusing to see this on a land border.

melloclello 12y ago
It's worth mentioning that now that National have won the election in New Zealand, it's likely they'll sign onto the TPPA which will effectively ban parallel importing.

listic 12y ago

I fail to understand the grey area that grey imports exist in, but I wish I could. I live in Russia and e.g. Apple products are notoriously over-priced here, so lots of local resellers make profit by doing grey imports. iPhones and iPads imported from practically any other contry turn out to be cheaper, even from nearby Finland, which, being Euro-zone country, is not cheap by American standards at all. Note that mobile operators in Russia are not in a position to subsidize phones, so all iPhones are being bought at full price. Mobile operators tried to sell iPhones, too, but could not compete and all balked out, taking great losses. At the same time, prices for most PC hardware seem to be at about Amazon US level. Bizzare? Sure. On the other hand, I am a brony and got interested in My Little Pony Collectible Card Game http://mlpccg.wikia.com/wiki/My_Little_Pony_Collectible_Card_Game_Wiki http://mlpccg.wikia.com/wiki/My_Little_Pony_Collectible_Card... (apparently, it doesn't suck? I was at a con in Finland and played with some enthusiastic fans there). No local stores carry the game here, and the developer (EnterPLAY) is very reluctantly replying my persistent inquiries. The best I got from them was: It’s difficult for me to officially support an event when I can’t officially sell the game into that country. Exactly what is stopping them from selling the game officially in Russia? Is it is the lack of interest from the retailers, or some sort of embargo, or legal obstacle? Maybe I will have better luck 1) buying a couple dozen of decks on Amazon, 2) organizing an impromptu unofficial tournament in a friendly board game club 3) convincing a club to start buying the game themselves and maybe then the developers will take interest and maybe support this all officially, or just talk to me? As a fan, the worst I can lose so far is the cost of a couple dozen decks, am I right?

T-hawk 12y ago
Holy Celestia, a fellow MLP CCG brony on HN. We've really got all types here. The constraint on global distribution is Hasbro, who owns the MLP intellectual property and chooses to license it out on a per country basis. Enterplay is not Hasbro and cannot take and sell the MLP characters where Hasbro doesn't permit it. The Enterplay game developers can't help this, they are far removed from this situation, it's all at the corporate management level. Hasbro has an odd relationship with MLP CCG in the first place. Hasbro owns Wizards of the Coast and is fearful of introducing competition with their own other successful CCGs.

dang 12y ago

> The headline is inaccurate: no smuggling is involved. Borderline case, but it's probably ok to use "smuggling" as shorthand for "importing illicitly".

TillE 12y ago
What exactly is illicit about it? Except when used in jest, all of these terms explicitly suggest illegal avoidance of tariffs. If that's not the case here, you really shouldn't use them.
- dang 12y ago
  > What exactly is illicit about it? That it's unauthorized. Let's not pretend this is your average importing operation. (Not a condemnation; I well know the hardship of having to do without Trader Joe's in Canada.) > all of these terms explicitly suggest illegal avoidance of tariffs "Illicit" does not imply that, which is why I used it.
  - stickfigure 12y ago
    Illicit - adj - "forbidden by law, rules, or custom" Does not seem to apply here.
    - dang 12y ago
      Of course it applies. An "illicit affair" is hardly illegal: https://www.google.com/webhp#q=illicit+affair https://www.google.com/webhp#q=illicit+affair. Any good dictionary will give this to you as a secondary meaning and probably cite that phrase as well. But if you really want to understand a word, look at its root. The root of "illicit" is the same "lic" as in "license"—and unlicensed reselling is precisely what the story is about. I'm going to detach this subthread now, to demote it as off-topic without punishing the root comment.
- DanBC 12y ago
  It's a grey market import. While some people hate the concept it has been enforced in some courts - the Tesco vs Levi Jeans case is one example from England. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1261829.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1261829.stm

unclebunkers 12y ago

I'm confused. I thought if I bought anything, I'm allowed to do with it as I will? First sale doctrine, which limits the rights trademark holders had over their products once they've been paid.

ubernostrum 12y ago
Nothing in the article says otherwise. The legal complications are in importing all the stuff, making sure you're not perceived as confusing/diluting someone else's brand name, complying with a different country's labeling requirements, and most of all obtaining the goods since Trader Joe's has the right to refuse to sell to "Pirate Joe's" shoppers.
- unclebunkers 12y ago
  Importing the stuff, complying with Canada's labelling has nothing to do with Trader Joes. That has to do with the Canadian government, and they don't seem to get too sticky about stuff like this. Trader Joes has a right to refuse people who shop there, but again, you can't sue someone for trying to buy from you. Trespassing perhaps. Stalking? Which brings us to your point about dilution of a brand. They lose that right when they sell it. It's called the first sale doctrine. HBO can stop Netflix from showing Game of Thrones streaming, but they cannot stop them from renting the video out. So, rather than listing things that aren't valid, could someone explain why isn't this covered by the first sale doctrine?
  - ubernostrum 12y ago
    The first sale doctrine does not let you do business under a name that is confusingly similar to someone else's trademark.
    - unclebunkers 12y ago
      If Pirate Joes is a Trademark violation, then every single small business that includes a persons name is a trademark violation. Regardless, settle a name change, and done. My point is there is zero need to be litigious here, and there is no logical legal justification. Trader Joeys, clear trademark violation. Pirate Joes, no fucking way. Not in this country.

golemotron 12y ago

Frankly, I'm stunned by the number of commenters in this thread who imply that companies ought to be able to prevent resale of their merchandise in order to control their brands. What sort of capitalism is this where you don't have ownership rights in what you buy?

TeMPOraL 12y ago
Service economy. That's what happened with software, that's what is happening with books, movies and videogames, and oh I am so waiting for some CFO to figure out how to turn groceries into a service.

SethMurphy 12y ago

While most see Trader Joe's an upstart grocery chain, it is important to note they are owned by the founder[s] of Aldi a huge grocery store chain. They were two brothers (one died recently) who had a very clear world domination plan with their grocery stores. Essentially they split the globe among them and each controlled the stores in their territory. Here is the Wiki stating it better than I could here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi

JoeAltmaier 12y ago
If I remember, they were one chain and split over the issue of sales of tobacco and alcohol?
- TheGeminon 12y ago
  I thought they split because the original owner died and left the two halves to his two sons.

ajlburke 12y ago

One funny side of this is that a fair number of Trader Joe's "house brand" items have been available as "President's Choice" or "Black Label" in Canadian Loblaws stores - often both made/imported by SunFresh of Mississauga and then rebranded. (Note: I caught onto this several years ago and haven't been to a TJ in a while - it's entirely possible TJ's and Loblaws have changed their suppliers since.)

vhdlGuru 12y ago

I don't get it, either - instead of suing the man, they should have just hired him and extended their business.

kinofcain 12y ago

The hand-written sign in front of the store is priceless: "Grocers Without Borders"