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After raising $50M, Reddit forces all remote workers to relocate to SF

163 points by malyk 12y ago

malyk 12y ago
Confirmation from Yishan Wong: https://twitter.com/yishan/status/517364923320385536 https://twitter.com/yishan/status/517364923320385536
gk1 12y ago
Here's the Twitter conversation between DHH and Yishan Wong, as of right now: DHH: Story I heard about Reddit post-$50M investment includes everyone not in San Francisco getting 1 week to decide whether to move or GTFO. o.0 Yishan Wong: Yes, we are relocating ppl back to SF w/generous relo package & COL adjustment, +3mos severance for anyone who can’t make the move, and no, the timeline for the move is not 1 week, but through the end of the year. Decision was also independent of fundraising. DHH: Very sad to hear. Especially for a company like Reddit that's all about bringing people together for causes regardless of location. Also, are you claiming that there never was a deadline of 1 week? That it was "through end of year" from the beginning? Yishan: Intention is to get whole team under one roof for optimal teamwork. Our goal is to retain 100% of the team. DHH: Hey, at least the shit sandwich comes with a smile and a thank you. Guess everything is peachy then. Yishan: Originally we asked for decision in 2 weeks but realized almost immediately that was too short and extended the timeline to EOY. DHH: Man, that is some cruel shit. Was that such that you could have a full headcount before the $50M check cleared?
- hashberry 12y ago
  "Optimal teamwork" = filling your day with meetings meetings and more meetings!
  - zimpenfish 12y ago
    Ooh, I'm snaffling that for some passive-aggressively pointed status updating tomorrow. Ta.
  - gojomo 12y ago
    Depending on other aspects of team culture, being in the same office can minimize the frequency/setup/teardown of formal meetings.
    - noir_lord 12y ago
      > being in the same office can minimize the frequency/setup/teardown of formal meetings. Aka "You won't get shit done because person B saves five seconds by asking you and costs you 5 minutes by them asking while you try to remember what you where doing". Been there, done that, never again.
      - icelancer 12y ago
        > costs you 5 minutes Yeah, if it happens once. Context-switching is cumulative. 5 minutes for the first disruption, 10 minutes for the second, 30 for the next, and you just quit working after the fourth.
      - gojomo 12y ago
        Not all same-place cultures encourage such interruptions. At their best, same-place cultures still have taboos and barriers against distruptive cross-talk. (And the sorts of IM/chat/conferencing tools most celebrated by distributed teams can deliver just as many derailing interruptions, if team habits encourage that.) Co-present team members can often sense when a question is most welcome – fitting them into the day's normal interstices – or learn enough via ambient observation that many questions aren't even necessary.
      - corobo 12y ago
        I wish it was only 5 minutes. It can easily take an hour to get back into "the zone" (for lack of a better term) if you're running at peak performance when they interrupt I hate open plan offices so much..
    - frostmatthew 12y ago
      > being in the same office can minimize the frequency/setup/teardown of formal meetings If it makes having meetings easier (by minimizing setup/teardown) it's more likely to cause an increase in the frequency of meetings.
- nemothekid 12y ago
  I don't think this convo is entirely fair to Yishan. While I'm not familiar with Reddit's tech stack or management policies, I can't say they have been a shining example of a remote engineering team. For a site that is simply some text and comments, they have a staggering amount of downtime and timeouts. Whatever they were doing before didn't seem to be working and maybe getting everyone in one place is the fix to that (not to say a remote team doesn' work, as GitHub gets along just fine).
  - cal5k 12y ago
    It's not fair to him at all. DHH is espousing his opinion in his typical loud-mouthed fashion without taking the time to understand the facts on the ground. He had the same style of firebrand exchange with Travis Kalanick over the Lyft recruiting stories.
    - briandear 12y ago
      what facts "on the ground"? It's an internet link-posting company. It isn't engineering hardware. It's a website. Nothing more. This issue is pretty clear. Come bankrupt yourself trying to buy a house in SF and waste hours per week commuting or get fired. Reddit is being f'ing stupid. I hope they go out of business. Unless they cut work hours to compensate for commute times AND pay 80% more AND compensate for transportation costs, then Reddit can rot for all I care. That whole "Same office" nonsense has no quantifiable data to prove it's more effective. None. If I were forced to give up nearly 2 hours per day on commuting and the related tomfoolery, then I better be getting paid for that time. I'd rather spend it with my little kids than on a train on in a car. If the work quality doesn't meet the standard then fire the managers. "Remote" isn't the issue. The issue is the idiots in charge.
      - cal5k 12y ago
        Fire the managers because they disagree with my point of view! All management decisions should be based on double-blind studies! Managing one of the most highly-trafficked sites on the Internet is easy because it isn't hardware!
- deleted 12y ago
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- deleted 12y ago
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- livestyle 12y ago
  New thread on DHH's full comments here -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8404006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8404006
beatpanda 12y ago
Please stop moving your entire team to my city to satisfy your investors. You are destroying its social fabric and distorting its rental market just to relocate people who would happily live and work somewhere else.
- briandear 12y ago
  Exactly. If the investors aren't happy, then why the f'ing heck did they invest? The Reddit execs are cowards and idiots.
- lsb 12y ago
  Whose city is it, exactly? And who isn't invited?
  - deleted 12y ago
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  - beatpanda 12y ago
    Nobody is "not invited". The problem is that the venture capital industry actually forces people and companies to move to San Francisco as a condition of investment. And all I want is for people who do not actually want to live in San Francisco, but are there because either their job or their investors made them move, to be allowed to live wherever it is they actually want to. The software industry could be leading the way toward location independent businesses and bringing economic life to places that have been screwed out of their economic vitality by globalization. Instead, it is forcing businesses, many of which would gladly locate themselves elsewhere, to pack all of their employees into a 7x7 grid that does not contain enough housing both for them and the people who already lived there. I work for an organization that provides services and advocacy for homeless people in San Francisco and I see the effects of this stupidity up close every day. It.needs to stop. We don't need to kick anybody out of the city, we simply need to just let people live where they want.
- icelancer 12y ago
  Ah so you're the mayor since it's "your city?" Or perhaps the dictator of SF?
briandear 12y ago
Screw Reddit. Same crap Yahoo thought was a good idea. Taking a $120K salary remote and then moving to SF. They better be providing a $80K COA or else it's robbery. This whole "remote can't work" meme started by Ms. "I have a private, in-office babysitter Melissa What's-Her-Name at Yahoo" is just 7 kinds of stupid. I've been working remotely for almost 3 years and it works just fine. If I had to waste 2 hours a day on a commute, then that's 10 hours per week I better be compensated for. There is absolutely ZERO reason a software engineer ever needs to work on site. None. F-ck Reddit.
- pbreit 12y ago
  It's not that it can't work. It's that there's a fairly solid sense that locating together is better. I worked with Yishan at paypal and remembr even spitting floors made things noticeably worse. And don't forget that companies are made up of more than just engineers.
  - briandear 12y ago
    How about quantifying that feeling with data? Working on site is one endless string of meetings, ping-pong, interruptions and nonsense. Not to mention the commute. For a simple website, which is really all Reddit is, there's no need to be on site. It isn't like they're building hardware. As far as PayPal goes -- that's not really a company to use as any example of the right way to do things. PayPal sucks and continues to suck.
    - KaoruAoiShiho 12y ago
      So are you saying if they were building hardware, ie building something complicated and creative it would then be important to not be remote?
    - terravion 12y ago
      That endless string of meetings is where the team can make sure you're building what actually needs get built. I'm sure your productivity in lines of code is higher alone in a windowless room, but if the company thinks that it still needs to disseminate and respond to unclear feedback from the market, the cycle to understand that feedback can be much shorter if everyone is in one place. That speed can be worth millions of lines of code.
sadfaceunread 12y ago
The amount of remote worker angst in these comments is pretty ridiculous. Yishan has seemed reasonable enough and has come to terms with the fact that some parts of Reddit's operations aren't being run how they should be. Saying 'fuck reddit' for a reasonable business maneuver is pretty out of line. Reddit had remote people other than just developers, managing those relationships remotely may have been part of the issue.
- schwap 12y ago
  Sorry, but from personal experience relocation is, indeed, a "shit sandwich", no matter how "generous" the relocation package.
  - fernandotakai 12y ago
    specially when we are talking about moving to SF, one of the most expensive cities in the US. even 20% more salary won't cover the cost of living there.
  - FLUX-YOU 12y ago
    Unless you live alone and have nothing holding you down. I would take a relo package in a heartbeat at my current company, but I'm probably in the minority with my circumstances.
- ryanSrich 12y ago
  > reasonable enough Sorry but _how in the fuck_ is forcing your employees and their families to relocate to the most expensive city in the US reasonable enough? > a reasonable business maneuver is pretty out of line How? They haven't said a word in regards to how this move is going to improve their business.
  - bhahn 12y ago
    Huh? Reddit isn't forcing anyone to move to sf. Remote workers have the option to stay where they are and receive 3 months severance on top of that, which is awfully generous. If any side is losing out, it's Reddit because they're shrinking their talent pool.
jonathantm 12y ago
Yeah... bit of a first world problem. If I'm reading it correctly: If somebody decides not to move they have three more months of work, followed by 3 more months of severance pay? That's half a year to get another job. Or start a company. Or whine - whatever floats your boat. No?
- jsnk 12y ago
  Yes definitely a first world problem that will throttle you and your family's existing social life, unsettle your children affecting their education, and probably lower your living standard substantially (cause living small hole in SF...). Yes it's a first world problem of the first order, alright. [edit 1] spelling
pdq 12y ago
I believe this is related and not just a coincidence: in watching "How to Start a Startup" [1], Sam Altman specifically points out his skepticism of remote founders and remote teams. I personally am in agreement. Jump to 28:20 to hear the question/answer. Also note that Sam is the lead investor in the B Round of Reddit. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVfnkM44Urs&t=28m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVfnkM44Urs&t=28m20s
- lockes5hadow 12y ago
  This isn't a start-up though. His 'data' hardly seems applicable to a company that's already the size of Reddit.
  - pdq 12y ago
    Considering Reddit has 51 employees (Wikipedia figures, which could likely be out of date), and considering the site still goes down periodically even after being 9 plus years old, I'd definitely call Reddit a startup.
    - frostmatthew 12y ago
      Since you got the number of employees from Wikipedia I thought I'd link to their definition of a startup[1]. Which, as it turns out, is not actually based on number of employees or amount of downtime... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_company
deleted 12y ago
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- rodgerd 12y ago
  > What is with the backlash against remote workers all the sudden? I don't know, but it doesn't juxtapose very will with the many SV companies insisting high-quality education can be delivered remotely while the trend seems to be demanding all the workers in one building...
  - smsm42 12y ago
    I think it may be that some folks (not necessarily from reddit) sometimes abused the remote thing, and it became hard to control for some managers, and so there was a cyclical shift in the culture from "remote is super-cool" to "remote is da suck!". If so, this cycle will come and pass as all fashions do. I know that sometimes working remote is great (been on both sides - working remote and having to coordinate with remote team) and sometimes it's challenging, especially if timezones are involved. A lot depends on the team and how well people communicate and record things. With education it's less challenging since in most scenarios the lectures are non-interactive anyway, the exercises have to be done individually or in very small groups, and the tutorship can be done online too as it does not require the same amount of communication as full-scale symmetrical collaboration.
- voltagex_ 12y ago
  Citrix? They power many many $BIGCORP remote-work setups, why would they not allow the same thing?
- wbandxx 12y ago
  because shills. People see value and opportunity in other's demise. Sad but true. Reality is , there are enough people in this thread itself that would kill for job of remote worker and joining reddit as employee.
falcolas 12y ago
If they're not offering a pretty major cost of living adjustment to salaries (probably in the realm of doubling salaries), this is going to really suck for those who were previously remote. Having everyone under one roof has its advantages, but having that roof in SF comes with an overwhelming number of disadvantages, both for the company and its workers.
- rodgerd 12y ago
  > If they're not offering a pretty major cost of living adjustment to salaries (probably in the realm of doubling salaries), this is going to really suck for those who were previously remote. Literally no salary adjustment will make it better for many people. Your spouse has a geo-tied job? Your kids love their school (or, hell you just don't want to raise kids there full stop)? Oh, and what salary adjustment will make up for it if you live in the kind of place you can afford a half-acre back yard?
  - smsm42 12y ago
    Some salaries would give you an option for some decent backyard not so far from SF, but I'd have very hard time believing most Reddit developers would get such salaries, unless Reddit intends to significantly beat the market prices. Of course, the situation for 23 yo with no attachments and for 38 yo with a family may differ significantly. I don't know how their team looks like but unless they are all unattached youngsters with no families and no other ties to their locations, 100% retainment under this condition is a pipe dream.
    - velocitypsycho 12y ago
      "unless they are all unattached youngsters with no families and no other ties to their locations" That's the key phrase. Many startups are just that.
  - smackfu 12y ago
    Plus replacing a zero hour commuter with any commute. That's more hours away from home for the same job.
ryanSrich 12y ago
Full disclosure: I am a remote worker. I love working remotely. I will (never say never but..) never work for a company that doesn't have a remote culture. So, even with putting my bias aside, this seems like such a bad move. I am so much more productive as a remote worker than I was as a monkey sitting at a desk everyday. Not only is the quality of my work better but I'm much more efficient (I get more done in 4 hours remotely than I did in a full 8 hour day at an office). I know I'm not special, in fact I believe I'm in the majority. Remote cultures in my opinion are the best. Mostly because: - less meetings (hangouts is glitchy so we make the ones we do have count) - hardly any email at all (async chat ftw) - records records records. Remember that conversation you had about that one awesome improvement but you just can't remember what it was...oh wait it's in chat. - minimal distractions. The only things to distract you are your cat and the internet. If someone pings you online you can leave it an answer it later, a tap on the shoulder? Not so much. Even if you could mimic my points above at a physical office, remote working is far better for work/life balance because: - you can earn a high wage living in a cheaper location. This is a huge benefit of working remotely. - you can stay around your family (since you'll be home more often) - you don't have to commute (of course some use co-working spaces but it's the freedom to choose that matters) Why would Reddit force their remote workers to relocate to the most expensive city in the US? That seems like a huge disadvantage to their employees. A relocation package is nothing compared to being able to afford a house, or spend time with your family. This is just sad.
- zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
  Worse for the employee, better for the company. Companies draw the line between these conflicting goals at various places.
  - ryanSrich 12y ago
    How is it better for the company? That's my whole point. I feel like people produce better work as remote employees.
    - deleted 12y ago
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sama 12y ago
to state what should be obvious, this was a decision by the company not the investors (also, the company made the decision before the round.) i'm skeptical of remote work for early-stage startups. i'm not religious about it for larger companies; i think it works for some and doesn't work for others. if it works, great. if it doesn't, that's fine too. the only thing i felt really strongly about (when yishan explained the challenges they were facing and asked for my advice as a friend and not an investor) was that reddit needed to be super generous to people that were unwilling or unable to move, and i think they have been.
- icelancer 12y ago
  >the only thing i felt really strongly about (when yishan explained the challenges they were facing and asked for my advice as a friend and not an investor) was that reddit needed to be super generous to people that were unwilling or unable to move, and i think they have been. Did he ask you this advice and THEN come to the conclusion that TWO WEEKS was good enough before getting a ton of blowback for it? How is that "super generous?"
  - tdicola 12y ago
    3 months severance is also a bit short. In the recent Microsoft layoffs I've heard of folks getting 6+ months depending on how long they've worked there. It's certainly better than nothing but I'm not sure I'd say 3 months is super generous.
    - aianus 12y ago
      You don't think getting paid 3 months salary to not work is generous? I wouldn't expect anything more than two weeks.
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      3 months is definitely not super generous. Reasonable, sure, but not "super generous". Twice I've gotten 6+ months severance from layoffs, I guess those companies were super duper generous.
trustfundbaby 12y ago
People need to understand that getting remote right is Hard. It is hard unless you get founders and managers and even employees who are pre-disposed to working that way, and know how to do it properly. I'm only good at it, because I was a freelancer for 6+8 years. So I effectively had to learn how to work from home and coffeeshops without wasting all day on reddit etc, or else I couldnt feed myself. Lots of people come from a butts-in-seats background and when thrown into a remote situation, are just not as productive, just as there are people who are. So while I don't agree with the decision (I'm a remote work fan myself). I totally understand what they're doing here. The truth is that this is just a shitty way of someone high up enough in the company saying "Remote isn't working for me" and "lets go to the default" which is butts-in-seats. Its a hard reset, a way to re-build the team culture around a non-remote way of working. Weirdly enough, lots of people thrive in that environment. What I would encourage everyone to do though, is to keep seeking remote employment and starting companies that run on a remote os ... so that in 5-10 years from now. Things like this will be absolutely ridiculous to everybody
chuckcode 12y ago
Seems like a lot of great open source software projects are run almost completely with remote teams - linux, git, apache, R, python, etc. have a lot of "remote" developers. Why do so many companies discourage remote teams? Hard to ignore the fact that you can get access to a much larger pool of developers and often for lower cost. Is there something fundamentally different about software development for a company vs opens source. Are the open source projects managed better/differently in some way to make these remote worker projects succeed?
- judk 12y ago
  Open source projects have better managers than reddit.
  - Istof 12y ago
    isn't reddit's software open source? https://github.com/reddit/reddit https://github.com/reddit/reddit
    - Macha 12y ago
      Yes, but I still wouldn't call Reddit itself an open source project. There's a difference between a project developed by a company which just leaves the code out there, maybe with the occasional outside bugfix (Android, Reddit), and open source projects where the direction is decided at least somewhat by the community (Linux, Apache, etc.)
chrisbennet 12y ago
This might just be a backdoor way to cut head count.
deleted 12y ago
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nitrobeast 12y ago
I don't understand why people think working remotely can be as productive as working together under one roof. Unless you are doing things that does not require a team anyway, there are times when face-to-face conversations are necessary to get things done.
- smackfu 12y ago
  I have certainly worked with people in the office who hurt my productivity.
jordanb 12y ago
I have no family and no car, but I do live in Chicago alone in a big apartment (for about $1000/mo) and I have a sailboat which is cheap to own in Chicago because the marinas are inexpensive. I also save a large part of my take home pay. Practically speaking even for me, to really cover a cost of living, giving like-for-like living situation, luxuries (like the boat) and maintaining my savings rate, double my current salary, or very close to that, would be the proper COL for moving to San Francisco. Ironically when most companies talk about COL it's usually on the order of 20%. I highly doubt reddit is really offering a COL that allows people to reproduce their lifestyle like-for-like in SF. For people like me who are single and have a few luxuries and live in not a particularly cheap city you're looking at double. For a family living in a cheap city you're looking at multiple times that. Really what Reddit is offering (assuming their COL is typical) is that the employee takes a pay cut, or they're fired. If that's not a shit sandwich I don't know what is.
- x0x0 12y ago
  The big apartment will be $3.5k. That's very workable -- the price is a $50k raise to get that $2.5k/mo post taxes. What isn't workable is the price of a home for kids. If you have two kids and want a three bedroom apartment or house, plus parking for a car, in most of sf you're starting at $5k/mo+. Plus probably needing private schools if you're not lucky enough to get into the handful of decent publics in sf. Or you can move to eg San Mateo or Belmont, which have good public schools. A nice 3-bed rental will be ~$4k/mo, but you're eating a 50 minute each-way commute up 101/280.
  - negrit 12y ago
    But you pay more taxes in California, so saving less. And forget about the cheap marina. And you're leaving your friends and family behind. So clearly, it sucks.
  - petercooper 12y ago
    Plus probably needing private schools if you're not lucky enough to get into the handful of decent publics in sf. As a mere visitor to SF, if SF has lots of poor quality public schools, who's going to them? I keep hearing on HN and Twitter about how ridiculously expensive it is to live anywhere in SF so why aren't the schools, funded by taxes like anywhere else, good too?
discardorama 12y ago
In my experience (and take it as just a data point), the success of a remote worker depends on the worker more than anything else. If it's a shitty place to work, even the best remote worker won't accomplish much. I have seen remote workers slacking off; and I have seen remote workers who were so good that I couldn't believe they weren't in the next building over. I'll take a guess and say that if Reddit is doing this, then it felt that the remote workers weren't as productive as they could be; hence the desire to pull them in and keep a closer eye on them.
tdicola 12y ago
I think with the shiny new purse of $50M reddit needs to hire an amazing PR person. Releasing this news now seems like it will kill all the good will from yesterday's announcements. Also have been a lot of weird media moments in the recent past like the CEO saying they wouldn't shut down the 'fappening' right as it was shut down. IMHO reddit is just one more big pedophilia controversy or other major legal issue away from total PR disaster.
kfcm 12y ago
Some thoughts. First, I work with various companies, many of which have remote work options. These options range from a couple days/week remote, to 100% remote. What I'm hearing from employees at the companies which have remote work implemented is they don't want to work for a company which doesn't offer remote work at the same level or better as their current employer. And the more time spent working away from the office, the more adamant the employees are about this. And these employees aren't only technologists either. I'm hearing the same thing from accounting, marketing, etc department employees who get a taste of remote work, and really don't want to go back to butts-in-seats. And their reasons are similar to the tech side--productivity goes up, no commute, fewer meetings and annoying co-workers. Second, there are very few technical reasons (I won't say none) that a company can't enable remote workers and save a ton on real estate costs. Skype, Google Hangouts, Facetime and even WebRTC (even in it's current state), show that individual/team-based video collaboration is possible over commonly available 20-50 Mb/s connections. VoIP enables an employee's "desk phone" to follow them anywhere (I was doing this with a headset/laptop/VPN in 2001). Chat is heavily used, even in the "business side" (accounting, etc) for traceability. The main technical problem is still reliable bandwidth. Even though 20-50 Mb/s suffices, 100 Mb/s or even 1 Gb/s active fiber would be better, to achieve corporate LAN-like speeds at home. Around this region, FTTP-enabled homes are selling like hotcakes. Finally, with the advent of "The Cloud" or just plain old-fashioned datacenter hosting, there's really no difference between working in a cube or working from home. Everything's already remote. In this sense, many corporate employees--with systems and co-workers located in another building/city/country--have a huge head start on this compared to start-up employees.
Hominem 12y ago
I gotta think that this is because reddit admins don't seem to present a united front to users or mods and they can't figure out how to fix it. It seems like there is serious dissension among admins regarding fundamental ethical issues and how to handle things like celeb nude leaks and they think getting everyone in a room together will help.
- icelancer 12y ago
  The admins are a complete joke on the site and empower sub-cults of reddit to flagrantly break the rules (SRS, anyone?) on a regular basis. I doubt putting them all in the same room will fix anything, except to maybe terminate the bad ones.
  - Hominem 12y ago
    They have random DB admins "running" the community however they feel at that moment and according to how much bad press they are getting. If it were me, like game companies hiring economists, I would hire an ethicist and an ombudsman.
    - icelancer 12y ago
      > I would hire an ethicist and an ombudsman. Absolutely. My smallish company even has an ombudsman on retainer, and we deal in physical goods. It exists for customer-company disputes and internal affairs issues. We've never used it, but it's totally ridiculous not to call up the local premier law firm and just get one on retainer. Very common service.
pasbesoin 12y ago
I, too, would like to know the real reasons for all the pushback against remote work, currently. In my experience, the best coworkers I've had have been full-time remote or those who craved their days working from home because they were so much more effective and so less stressed by "noise", both literal and figurative, at the office. Those who "excelled" onsite and especially who further "embraced" open space? Most of them we were endlessly correcting and making up for. No depth. No insight. There ARE circumstances where I've felt and experienced the synergy of working together, in meatspace. Those were, in turn, meatspace type activities. Not software and systems development. I like Reddit as a property I use, although at the same time I can't help harboring a bit of resentment at it and Google-ified Dejanews for marginalizing newsgroups. But if they're going to go all Management on me -- on us -- well, I won't cry if and when things turn on a dime... If they still can, in our increasingly colonized Internet.
Istof 12y ago
Does reddit still have 51 employees? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit
NateDad 12y ago
Any reddit workers that want to stay remote are welcome to apply to Canonical - all remote work, no VC's ever, and it's open source - http://www.canonical.com/careers http://www.canonical.com/careers
- NateDad 12y ago
  And for my thoughts on working there (written a year ago but still true): http://blog.natefinch.com/2013/11/working-at-canonical.html http://blog.natefinch.com/2013/11/working-at-canonical.html
- atiaxi 12y ago
  Done and done!
jack-r-abbit 12y ago
Just because the Reddit office in in SF, doesn't mean you have to live in SF. So all those people talking about how SF is shit and expensive and horrible for raising a family must not realize that you can find better/cheaper/bigger places to live by going a short distance out side of SF proper. I have a family and spent over 4 years working in SF and never once lived there.
slantedview 12y ago
SF is the most expensive city in the world (according to recent data.) Spending company money to not only relocate, but to pay salary adjustments for half the company to come live there isn't just irresponsible, it's idiotic.
ed898 12y ago
If you are looking for remote jobs, checkout www.remoyo.com

163 points by malyk 12y ago

malyk 12y ago

Confirmation from Yishan Wong: https://twitter.com/yishan/status/517364923320385536 https://twitter.com/yishan/status/517364923320385536

gk1 12y ago

Here's the Twitter conversation between DHH and Yishan Wong, as of right now: DHH: Story I heard about Reddit post-$50M investment includes everyone not in San Francisco getting 1 week to decide whether to move or GTFO. o.0 Yishan Wong: Yes, we are relocating ppl back to SF w/generous relo package & COL adjustment, +3mos severance for anyone who can’t make the move, and no, the timeline for the move is not 1 week, but through the end of the year. Decision was also independent of fundraising. DHH: Very sad to hear. Especially for a company like Reddit that's all about bringing people together for causes regardless of location. Also, are you claiming that there never was a deadline of 1 week? That it was "through end of year" from the beginning? Yishan: Intention is to get whole team under one roof for optimal teamwork. Our goal is to retain 100% of the team. DHH: Hey, at least the shit sandwich comes with a smile and a thank you. Guess everything is peachy then. Yishan: Originally we asked for decision in 2 weeks but realized almost immediately that was too short and extended the timeline to EOY. DHH: Man, that is some cruel shit. Was that such that you could have a full headcount before the $50M check cleared?

hashberry 12y ago
"Optimal teamwork" = filling your day with meetings meetings and more meetings!
- zimpenfish 12y ago
  Ooh, I'm snaffling that for some passive-aggressively pointed status updating tomorrow. Ta.
- gojomo 12y ago
  Depending on other aspects of team culture, being in the same office can minimize the frequency/setup/teardown of formal meetings.
  - noir_lord 12y ago
    > being in the same office can minimize the frequency/setup/teardown of formal meetings. Aka "You won't get shit done because person B saves five seconds by asking you and costs you 5 minutes by them asking while you try to remember what you where doing". Been there, done that, never again.
    - icelancer 12y ago
      > costs you 5 minutes Yeah, if it happens once. Context-switching is cumulative. 5 minutes for the first disruption, 10 minutes for the second, 30 for the next, and you just quit working after the fourth.
    - gojomo 12y ago
      Not all same-place cultures encourage such interruptions. At their best, same-place cultures still have taboos and barriers against distruptive cross-talk. (And the sorts of IM/chat/conferencing tools most celebrated by distributed teams can deliver just as many derailing interruptions, if team habits encourage that.) Co-present team members can often sense when a question is most welcome – fitting them into the day's normal interstices – or learn enough via ambient observation that many questions aren't even necessary.
    - corobo 12y ago
      I wish it was only 5 minutes. It can easily take an hour to get back into "the zone" (for lack of a better term) if you're running at peak performance when they interrupt I hate open plan offices so much..
  - frostmatthew 12y ago
    > being in the same office can minimize the frequency/setup/teardown of formal meetings If it makes having meetings easier (by minimizing setup/teardown) it's more likely to cause an increase in the frequency of meetings.
nemothekid 12y ago
I don't think this convo is entirely fair to Yishan. While I'm not familiar with Reddit's tech stack or management policies, I can't say they have been a shining example of a remote engineering team. For a site that is simply some text and comments, they have a staggering amount of downtime and timeouts. Whatever they were doing before didn't seem to be working and maybe getting everyone in one place is the fix to that (not to say a remote team doesn' work, as GitHub gets along just fine).
- cal5k 12y ago
  It's not fair to him at all. DHH is espousing his opinion in his typical loud-mouthed fashion without taking the time to understand the facts on the ground. He had the same style of firebrand exchange with Travis Kalanick over the Lyft recruiting stories.
  - briandear 12y ago
    what facts "on the ground"? It's an internet link-posting company. It isn't engineering hardware. It's a website. Nothing more. This issue is pretty clear. Come bankrupt yourself trying to buy a house in SF and waste hours per week commuting or get fired. Reddit is being f'ing stupid. I hope they go out of business. Unless they cut work hours to compensate for commute times AND pay 80% more AND compensate for transportation costs, then Reddit can rot for all I care. That whole "Same office" nonsense has no quantifiable data to prove it's more effective. None. If I were forced to give up nearly 2 hours per day on commuting and the related tomfoolery, then I better be getting paid for that time. I'd rather spend it with my little kids than on a train on in a car. If the work quality doesn't meet the standard then fire the managers. "Remote" isn't the issue. The issue is the idiots in charge.
    - cal5k 12y ago
      Fire the managers because they disagree with my point of view! All management decisions should be based on double-blind studies! Managing one of the most highly-trafficked sites on the Internet is easy because it isn't hardware!
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livestyle 12y ago
New thread on DHH's full comments here -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8404006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8404006

beatpanda 12y ago

Please stop moving your entire team to my city to satisfy your investors. You are destroying its social fabric and distorting its rental market just to relocate people who would happily live and work somewhere else.

briandear 12y ago
Exactly. If the investors aren't happy, then why the f'ing heck did they invest? The Reddit execs are cowards and idiots.
lsb 12y ago
Whose city is it, exactly? And who isn't invited?
- deleted 12y ago
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- beatpanda 12y ago
  Nobody is "not invited". The problem is that the venture capital industry actually forces people and companies to move to San Francisco as a condition of investment. And all I want is for people who do not actually want to live in San Francisco, but are there because either their job or their investors made them move, to be allowed to live wherever it is they actually want to. The software industry could be leading the way toward location independent businesses and bringing economic life to places that have been screwed out of their economic vitality by globalization. Instead, it is forcing businesses, many of which would gladly locate themselves elsewhere, to pack all of their employees into a 7x7 grid that does not contain enough housing both for them and the people who already lived there. I work for an organization that provides services and advocacy for homeless people in San Francisco and I see the effects of this stupidity up close every day. It.needs to stop. We don't need to kick anybody out of the city, we simply need to just let people live where they want.
icelancer 12y ago
Ah so you're the mayor since it's "your city?" Or perhaps the dictator of SF?

briandear 12y ago

Screw Reddit. Same crap Yahoo thought was a good idea. Taking a $120K salary remote and then moving to SF. They better be providing a $80K COA or else it's robbery. This whole "remote can't work" meme started by Ms. "I have a private, in-office babysitter Melissa What's-Her-Name at Yahoo" is just 7 kinds of stupid. I've been working remotely for almost 3 years and it works just fine. If I had to waste 2 hours a day on a commute, then that's 10 hours per week I better be compensated for. There is absolutely ZERO reason a software engineer ever needs to work on site. None. F-ck Reddit.

pbreit 12y ago
It's not that it can't work. It's that there's a fairly solid sense that locating together is better. I worked with Yishan at paypal and remembr even spitting floors made things noticeably worse. And don't forget that companies are made up of more than just engineers.
- briandear 12y ago
  How about quantifying that feeling with data? Working on site is one endless string of meetings, ping-pong, interruptions and nonsense. Not to mention the commute. For a simple website, which is really all Reddit is, there's no need to be on site. It isn't like they're building hardware. As far as PayPal goes -- that's not really a company to use as any example of the right way to do things. PayPal sucks and continues to suck.
  - KaoruAoiShiho 12y ago
    So are you saying if they were building hardware, ie building something complicated and creative it would then be important to not be remote?
  - terravion 12y ago
    That endless string of meetings is where the team can make sure you're building what actually needs get built. I'm sure your productivity in lines of code is higher alone in a windowless room, but if the company thinks that it still needs to disseminate and respond to unclear feedback from the market, the cycle to understand that feedback can be much shorter if everyone is in one place. That speed can be worth millions of lines of code.

sadfaceunread 12y ago

The amount of remote worker angst in these comments is pretty ridiculous. Yishan has seemed reasonable enough and has come to terms with the fact that some parts of Reddit's operations aren't being run how they should be. Saying 'fuck reddit' for a reasonable business maneuver is pretty out of line. Reddit had remote people other than just developers, managing those relationships remotely may have been part of the issue.

schwap 12y ago
Sorry, but from personal experience relocation is, indeed, a "shit sandwich", no matter how "generous" the relocation package.
- fernandotakai 12y ago
  specially when we are talking about moving to SF, one of the most expensive cities in the US. even 20% more salary won't cover the cost of living there.
- FLUX-YOU 12y ago
  Unless you live alone and have nothing holding you down. I would take a relo package in a heartbeat at my current company, but I'm probably in the minority with my circumstances.
ryanSrich 12y ago
> reasonable enough Sorry but _how in the fuck_ is forcing your employees and their families to relocate to the most expensive city in the US reasonable enough? > a reasonable business maneuver is pretty out of line How? They haven't said a word in regards to how this move is going to improve their business.
- bhahn 12y ago
  Huh? Reddit isn't forcing anyone to move to sf. Remote workers have the option to stay where they are and receive 3 months severance on top of that, which is awfully generous. If any side is losing out, it's Reddit because they're shrinking their talent pool.

jonathantm 12y ago

Yeah... bit of a first world problem. If I'm reading it correctly: If somebody decides not to move they have three more months of work, followed by 3 more months of severance pay? That's half a year to get another job. Or start a company. Or whine - whatever floats your boat. No?

jsnk 12y ago
Yes definitely a first world problem that will throttle you and your family's existing social life, unsettle your children affecting their education, and probably lower your living standard substantially (cause living small hole in SF...). Yes it's a first world problem of the first order, alright. [edit 1] spelling

pdq 12y ago

I believe this is related and not just a coincidence: in watching "How to Start a Startup" [1], Sam Altman specifically points out his skepticism of remote founders and remote teams. I personally am in agreement. Jump to 28:20 to hear the question/answer. Also note that Sam is the lead investor in the B Round of Reddit. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVfnkM44Urs&t=28m20s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVfnkM44Urs&t=28m20s

lockes5hadow 12y ago
This isn't a start-up though. His 'data' hardly seems applicable to a company that's already the size of Reddit.
- pdq 12y ago
  Considering Reddit has 51 employees (Wikipedia figures, which could likely be out of date), and considering the site still goes down periodically even after being 9 plus years old, I'd definitely call Reddit a startup.
  - frostmatthew 12y ago
    Since you got the number of employees from Wikipedia I thought I'd link to their definition of a startup[1]. Which, as it turns out, is not actually based on number of employees or amount of downtime... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_company

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rodgerd 12y ago
> What is with the backlash against remote workers all the sudden? I don't know, but it doesn't juxtapose very will with the many SV companies insisting high-quality education can be delivered remotely while the trend seems to be demanding all the workers in one building...
- smsm42 12y ago
  I think it may be that some folks (not necessarily from reddit) sometimes abused the remote thing, and it became hard to control for some managers, and so there was a cyclical shift in the culture from "remote is super-cool" to "remote is da suck!". If so, this cycle will come and pass as all fashions do. I know that sometimes working remote is great (been on both sides - working remote and having to coordinate with remote team) and sometimes it's challenging, especially if timezones are involved. A lot depends on the team and how well people communicate and record things. With education it's less challenging since in most scenarios the lectures are non-interactive anyway, the exercises have to be done individually or in very small groups, and the tutorship can be done online too as it does not require the same amount of communication as full-scale symmetrical collaboration.
voltagex_ 12y ago
Citrix? They power many many $BIGCORP remote-work setups, why would they not allow the same thing?
wbandxx 12y ago
because shills. People see value and opportunity in other's demise. Sad but true. Reality is , there are enough people in this thread itself that would kill for job of remote worker and joining reddit as employee.

falcolas 12y ago

If they're not offering a pretty major cost of living adjustment to salaries (probably in the realm of doubling salaries), this is going to really suck for those who were previously remote. Having everyone under one roof has its advantages, but having that roof in SF comes with an overwhelming number of disadvantages, both for the company and its workers.

rodgerd 12y ago
> If they're not offering a pretty major cost of living adjustment to salaries (probably in the realm of doubling salaries), this is going to really suck for those who were previously remote. Literally no salary adjustment will make it better for many people. Your spouse has a geo-tied job? Your kids love their school (or, hell you just don't want to raise kids there full stop)? Oh, and what salary adjustment will make up for it if you live in the kind of place you can afford a half-acre back yard?
- smsm42 12y ago
  Some salaries would give you an option for some decent backyard not so far from SF, but I'd have very hard time believing most Reddit developers would get such salaries, unless Reddit intends to significantly beat the market prices. Of course, the situation for 23 yo with no attachments and for 38 yo with a family may differ significantly. I don't know how their team looks like but unless they are all unattached youngsters with no families and no other ties to their locations, 100% retainment under this condition is a pipe dream.
  - velocitypsycho 12y ago
    "unless they are all unattached youngsters with no families and no other ties to their locations" That's the key phrase. Many startups are just that.
- smackfu 12y ago
  Plus replacing a zero hour commuter with any commute. That's more hours away from home for the same job.

ryanSrich 12y ago

Full disclosure: I am a remote worker. I love working remotely. I will (never say never but..) never work for a company that doesn't have a remote culture. So, even with putting my bias aside, this seems like such a bad move. I am so much more productive as a remote worker than I was as a monkey sitting at a desk everyday. Not only is the quality of my work better but I'm much more efficient (I get more done in 4 hours remotely than I did in a full 8 hour day at an office). I know I'm not special, in fact I believe I'm in the majority. Remote cultures in my opinion are the best. Mostly because: - less meetings (hangouts is glitchy so we make the ones we do have count) - hardly any email at all (async chat ftw) - records records records. Remember that conversation you had about that one awesome improvement but you just can't remember what it was...oh wait it's in chat. - minimal distractions. The only things to distract you are your cat and the internet. If someone pings you online you can leave it an answer it later, a tap on the shoulder? Not so much. Even if you could mimic my points above at a physical office, remote working is far better for work/life balance because: - you can earn a high wage living in a cheaper location. This is a huge benefit of working remotely. - you can stay around your family (since you'll be home more often) - you don't have to commute (of course some use co-working spaces but it's the freedom to choose that matters) Why would Reddit force their remote workers to relocate to the most expensive city in the US? That seems like a huge disadvantage to their employees. A relocation package is nothing compared to being able to afford a house, or spend time with your family. This is just sad.

zak_mc_kracken 12y ago
Worse for the employee, better for the company. Companies draw the line between these conflicting goals at various places.
- ryanSrich 12y ago
  How is it better for the company? That's my whole point. I feel like people produce better work as remote employees.
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sama 12y ago

to state what should be obvious, this was a decision by the company not the investors (also, the company made the decision before the round.) i'm skeptical of remote work for early-stage startups. i'm not religious about it for larger companies; i think it works for some and doesn't work for others. if it works, great. if it doesn't, that's fine too. the only thing i felt really strongly about (when yishan explained the challenges they were facing and asked for my advice as a friend and not an investor) was that reddit needed to be super generous to people that were unwilling or unable to move, and i think they have been.

icelancer 12y ago
>the only thing i felt really strongly about (when yishan explained the challenges they were facing and asked for my advice as a friend and not an investor) was that reddit needed to be super generous to people that were unwilling or unable to move, and i think they have been. Did he ask you this advice and THEN come to the conclusion that TWO WEEKS was good enough before getting a ton of blowback for it? How is that "super generous?"
- tdicola 12y ago
  3 months severance is also a bit short. In the recent Microsoft layoffs I've heard of folks getting 6+ months depending on how long they've worked there. It's certainly better than nothing but I'm not sure I'd say 3 months is super generous.
  - aianus 12y ago
    You don't think getting paid 3 months salary to not work is generous? I wouldn't expect anything more than two weeks.
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    3 months is definitely not super generous. Reasonable, sure, but not "super generous". Twice I've gotten 6+ months severance from layoffs, I guess those companies were super duper generous.

trustfundbaby 12y ago

People need to understand that getting remote right is Hard. It is hard unless you get founders and managers and even employees who are pre-disposed to working that way, and know how to do it properly. I'm only good at it, because I was a freelancer for 6+8 years. So I effectively had to learn how to work from home and coffeeshops without wasting all day on reddit etc, or else I couldnt feed myself. Lots of people come from a butts-in-seats background and when thrown into a remote situation, are just not as productive, just as there are people who are. So while I don't agree with the decision (I'm a remote work fan myself). I totally understand what they're doing here. The truth is that this is just a shitty way of someone high up enough in the company saying "Remote isn't working for me" and "lets go to the default" which is butts-in-seats. Its a hard reset, a way to re-build the team culture around a non-remote way of working. Weirdly enough, lots of people thrive in that environment. What I would encourage everyone to do though, is to keep seeking remote employment and starting companies that run on a remote os ... so that in 5-10 years from now. Things like this will be absolutely ridiculous to everybody

chuckcode 12y ago

Seems like a lot of great open source software projects are run almost completely with remote teams - linux, git, apache, R, python, etc. have a lot of "remote" developers. Why do so many companies discourage remote teams? Hard to ignore the fact that you can get access to a much larger pool of developers and often for lower cost. Is there something fundamentally different about software development for a company vs opens source. Are the open source projects managed better/differently in some way to make these remote worker projects succeed?

judk 12y ago
Open source projects have better managers than reddit.
- Istof 12y ago
  isn't reddit's software open source? https://github.com/reddit/reddit https://github.com/reddit/reddit
  - Macha 12y ago
    Yes, but I still wouldn't call Reddit itself an open source project. There's a difference between a project developed by a company which just leaves the code out there, maybe with the occasional outside bugfix (Android, Reddit), and open source projects where the direction is decided at least somewhat by the community (Linux, Apache, etc.)

chrisbennet 12y ago

This might just be a backdoor way to cut head count.

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nitrobeast 12y ago

I don't understand why people think working remotely can be as productive as working together under one roof. Unless you are doing things that does not require a team anyway, there are times when face-to-face conversations are necessary to get things done.

smackfu 12y ago
I have certainly worked with people in the office who hurt my productivity.

jordanb 12y ago

I have no family and no car, but I do live in Chicago alone in a big apartment (for about $1000/mo) and I have a sailboat which is cheap to own in Chicago because the marinas are inexpensive. I also save a large part of my take home pay. Practically speaking even for me, to really cover a cost of living, giving like-for-like living situation, luxuries (like the boat) and maintaining my savings rate, double my current salary, or very close to that, would be the proper COL for moving to San Francisco. Ironically when most companies talk about COL it's usually on the order of 20%. I highly doubt reddit is really offering a COL that allows people to reproduce their lifestyle like-for-like in SF. For people like me who are single and have a few luxuries and live in not a particularly cheap city you're looking at double. For a family living in a cheap city you're looking at multiple times that. Really what Reddit is offering (assuming their COL is typical) is that the employee takes a pay cut, or they're fired. If that's not a shit sandwich I don't know what is.

x0x0 12y ago
The big apartment will be $3.5k. That's very workable -- the price is a $50k raise to get that $2.5k/mo post taxes. What isn't workable is the price of a home for kids. If you have two kids and want a three bedroom apartment or house, plus parking for a car, in most of sf you're starting at $5k/mo+. Plus probably needing private schools if you're not lucky enough to get into the handful of decent publics in sf. Or you can move to eg San Mateo or Belmont, which have good public schools. A nice 3-bed rental will be ~$4k/mo, but you're eating a 50 minute each-way commute up 101/280.
- negrit 12y ago
  But you pay more taxes in California, so saving less. And forget about the cheap marina. And you're leaving your friends and family behind. So clearly, it sucks.
- petercooper 12y ago
  Plus probably needing private schools if you're not lucky enough to get into the handful of decent publics in sf. As a mere visitor to SF, if SF has lots of poor quality public schools, who's going to them? I keep hearing on HN and Twitter about how ridiculously expensive it is to live anywhere in SF so why aren't the schools, funded by taxes like anywhere else, good too?

discardorama 12y ago

In my experience (and take it as just a data point), the success of a remote worker depends on the worker more than anything else. If it's a shitty place to work, even the best remote worker won't accomplish much. I have seen remote workers slacking off; and I have seen remote workers who were so good that I couldn't believe they weren't in the next building over. I'll take a guess and say that if Reddit is doing this, then it felt that the remote workers weren't as productive as they could be; hence the desire to pull them in and keep a closer eye on them.

tdicola 12y ago

I think with the shiny new purse of $50M reddit needs to hire an amazing PR person. Releasing this news now seems like it will kill all the good will from yesterday's announcements. Also have been a lot of weird media moments in the recent past like the CEO saying they wouldn't shut down the 'fappening' right as it was shut down. IMHO reddit is just one more big pedophilia controversy or other major legal issue away from total PR disaster.

kfcm 12y ago

Some thoughts. First, I work with various companies, many of which have remote work options. These options range from a couple days/week remote, to 100% remote. What I'm hearing from employees at the companies which have remote work implemented is they don't want to work for a company which doesn't offer remote work at the same level or better as their current employer. And the more time spent working away from the office, the more adamant the employees are about this. And these employees aren't only technologists either. I'm hearing the same thing from accounting, marketing, etc department employees who get a taste of remote work, and really don't want to go back to butts-in-seats. And their reasons are similar to the tech side--productivity goes up, no commute, fewer meetings and annoying co-workers. Second, there are very few technical reasons (I won't say none) that a company can't enable remote workers and save a ton on real estate costs. Skype, Google Hangouts, Facetime and even WebRTC (even in it's current state), show that individual/team-based video collaboration is possible over commonly available 20-50 Mb/s connections. VoIP enables an employee's "desk phone" to follow them anywhere (I was doing this with a headset/laptop/VPN in 2001). Chat is heavily used, even in the "business side" (accounting, etc) for traceability. The main technical problem is still reliable bandwidth. Even though 20-50 Mb/s suffices, 100 Mb/s or even 1 Gb/s active fiber would be better, to achieve corporate LAN-like speeds at home. Around this region, FTTP-enabled homes are selling like hotcakes. Finally, with the advent of "The Cloud" or just plain old-fashioned datacenter hosting, there's really no difference between working in a cube or working from home. Everything's already remote. In this sense, many corporate employees--with systems and co-workers located in another building/city/country--have a huge head start on this compared to start-up employees.

Hominem 12y ago

I gotta think that this is because reddit admins don't seem to present a united front to users or mods and they can't figure out how to fix it. It seems like there is serious dissension among admins regarding fundamental ethical issues and how to handle things like celeb nude leaks and they think getting everyone in a room together will help.

icelancer 12y ago
The admins are a complete joke on the site and empower sub-cults of reddit to flagrantly break the rules (SRS, anyone?) on a regular basis. I doubt putting them all in the same room will fix anything, except to maybe terminate the bad ones.
- Hominem 12y ago
  They have random DB admins "running" the community however they feel at that moment and according to how much bad press they are getting. If it were me, like game companies hiring economists, I would hire an ethicist and an ombudsman.
  - icelancer 12y ago
    > I would hire an ethicist and an ombudsman. Absolutely. My smallish company even has an ombudsman on retainer, and we deal in physical goods. It exists for customer-company disputes and internal affairs issues. We've never used it, but it's totally ridiculous not to call up the local premier law firm and just get one on retainer. Very common service.

pasbesoin 12y ago

I, too, would like to know the real reasons for all the pushback against remote work, currently. In my experience, the best coworkers I've had have been full-time remote or those who craved their days working from home because they were so much more effective and so less stressed by "noise", both literal and figurative, at the office. Those who "excelled" onsite and especially who further "embraced" open space? Most of them we were endlessly correcting and making up for. No depth. No insight. There ARE circumstances where I've felt and experienced the synergy of working together, in meatspace. Those were, in turn, meatspace type activities. Not software and systems development. I like Reddit as a property I use, although at the same time I can't help harboring a bit of resentment at it and Google-ified Dejanews for marginalizing newsgroups. But if they're going to go all Management on me -- on us -- well, I won't cry if and when things turn on a dime... If they still can, in our increasingly colonized Internet.

Istof 12y ago

Does reddit still have 51 employees? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit

NateDad 12y ago

Any reddit workers that want to stay remote are welcome to apply to Canonical - all remote work, no VC's ever, and it's open source - http://www.canonical.com/careers http://www.canonical.com/careers

NateDad 12y ago
And for my thoughts on working there (written a year ago but still true): http://blog.natefinch.com/2013/11/working-at-canonical.html http://blog.natefinch.com/2013/11/working-at-canonical.html
atiaxi 12y ago
Done and done!

jack-r-abbit 12y ago

Just because the Reddit office in in SF, doesn't mean you have to live in SF. So all those people talking about how SF is shit and expensive and horrible for raising a family must not realize that you can find better/cheaper/bigger places to live by going a short distance out side of SF proper. I have a family and spent over 4 years working in SF and never once lived there.

slantedview 12y ago

SF is the most expensive city in the world (according to recent data.) Spending company money to not only relocate, but to pay salary adjustments for half the company to come live there isn't just irresponsible, it's idiotic.

ed898 12y ago

If you are looking for remote jobs, checkout www.remoyo.com