6 ms·

Denmark tackles youth unemployment with university cuts

29 points by MrJagil 12y ago

I thought it was interesting with this discussion in mind: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394136 As other countries have shown some socialist movements in recent years (Obamacare, weed legalization, Germany making universities free etc), we in Denmark, praised for equality and happiness, are tightening the screw. We are not studying for knowledge anymore, but for profits. Though I am Danish, I am not trying to complain or be overly emotional. It just seems very interesting that we're all, globally, moving towards the middle. Yes, I am painting with _very_ broad strokes. Pressed for time to find more evidence. Will update.

MrJagil 12y ago
I thought it was interesting with this discussion in mind: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394136 As other countries have shown some socialist movements in recent years (Obamacare, weed legalization, Germany making universities free etc), we in Denmark, praised for equality and happiness, are tightening the screw. We are not studying for knowledge anymore, but for profits. Though I am Danish, I am not trying to complain or be overly emotional. It just seems very interesting that we're all, globally, moving towards the middle. Yes, I am painting with _very_ broad strokes.
- taylodl 12y ago
  At some point in time the University stopped being the place to gain knowledge and instead became a trade school to gain a job. It's a reflection of society's values: money and the things it buys is more important than knowledge. Maybe it always was and we were just kidding ourselves thinking we ever really valued knowledge. Anyway this will be interesting to see how it plays out.
  - fennecfoxen 12y ago
    Well, let's be realistic. At some point in time the University also stopped being the place where privileged elites, noblemen and merchants and the like, sent their children (already destined for reasonably lucrative careers) to become better people and to appreciate refinement in things like Knowledge and Philosophy, rather than just in Money. It's now a really democratic institution, with large sums of taxpayer funding available to people from all walks of life. This is probably a net win, and it shouldn't be seen as ostentatiously degrading to pay some heed to the exigencies of The Real World and outcomes there. The question, naturally, is one of balance, how to avoid both "university as trade school" and ivory-tower head-in-the-clouds detachment from reality.
  - jerf 12y ago
    It was when we decided to send everybody to University instead of just a certain set. A different group of people went in with different expectations. If you understand it properly it's hard to even call it wrong. As it is often easy for the elites to forget, knowledge-focused university training is a luxury, in the sense that we can only have it if we also have a solid enough social foundation that we have the excess resources to dedicate people to not-immediately-productive tasks. Lately I'd say our elites have done a fairly poor job tending the foundation.
  - MrJagil 12y ago
    It just seems strange to me that despite swaths of evidence, people in position of power _still_ think in short terms. Though we all agree computer science is very important these days, who can deny the societal importance of philosophy, psychology etc despite the job market being narrower. Even fringe studies such as eskimology (the study of Eskimo's, and yes, you can study that in DK) will certainly have value in some way or another, same as going to the moon. Knowledge for knowledge's sake is important exactly because we don't know it's importance or value.
    - lordnacho 12y ago
      "It just seems strange to me that despite swaths of evidence, people in position of power _still_ think in short terms." Are you kidding me? There's an election every four years and under the current government there's been umpteen reshuffles. Politicians have to respond to incentives, I mean opinion polls. As a fellow Dane I am not surprised at all that our politicians, many of whom are only partway through (the same) degree when they are elected, would take the short view of things.
      - mkaziz 12y ago
        Does that mean the inability to think for the long term is a fundamental limitation of modern democracies?
        lordnacho 12y ago
        Well, I don't know if it's fundamental. I hope not. Perhaps you could change the constitution somehow. You could mess with term lengths or limit someone's tenure. Or you could have a part time parliament like in Switzerland. That way the politicians need normal jobs and are not dependent on the voters for a livelihood. The question is, once you have the current system, how are you going to get the incumbents to vote themselves out of work?
        lordnacho 12y ago
        Well, I don't know if it's fundamental. I hope not. Perhaps you could change the constitution somehow. You could mess with term lengths or limit someone's tenure. Or you could have a part time parliament like in Switzerland. That way the politicians need normal jobs and are not dependent on the voters for a livelihood. The question is, once you have the current system, how are you going to get the incumbents to vote themselves out of work?
- nextos 12y ago
  At the risk of oversimplifying, I have also noted that Denmark is becoming less Scandinavian in many areas. Which is sad, as people running the country got so many things right in the 1980-2000s. Many KU or DTU departments that ranked amongst the very best have fallen apart. As a foreigner, I have sensed an alarming increase in nepotism.
mukundmr 12y ago
So the 15000 students will be forced to join the courses in demand and that will dry up due to increased supply. Then what? Will they keep moving courses around every year? What happens to the teaching faculty for some course that goes away and comes back?
- ThomPete 12y ago
  Denmark have had a longstanding issue with too many students choosing humanistic fields and going straight out to unemployment. It's a welcome decision.
  - JamisonM 12y ago
    It is at least a perceived longstanding issue, how large a problem is it really? How large an economic impact does it have? I suspect that the government did not actually investigate those factors. Denmark's unemployment rate stands well below the EU average, better than Finland, France, Estonia, Belgium, and comparable to the Czech Republic. Fixing possible non-problems with solutions that may have long-term negative consequences is usually bad policy. No one knows what the future of employment is going to look like.
    - ThomPete 12y ago
      It's not a non-problem its a big problem especially in a country where education is free. Unemployment is low because the public sector is huge and take a lot of those people in. But a smaller and smaller percentage of the population pays for that and so they can't continue growing it. This is the main reason why they are cutting down. With some of the highest taxes in the world and also free health care plus very liberal social welfare model this is unsustainable. And you could might as well turn it around. How big a problem is it really that they minimize their approval of humanistic applicants. Denmark is doing bad when it comes to building companies. It's very easy to start a company but growing it is extremely difficult and not financially as rewarding. They need more people to start doing stuff not just getting hired. And then we haven't even touched on the more fundamental issue with the way Denmark thought and still think about education.
wisienkas 12y ago
From what I further read about this issue, was that in south denmark, more directly "University of Southern Denmark" was being cut by up to 50% in some courses, but the unemployment in that area only being about 5-10%. What I don't understand is that the danish government didn't plan the cutdown with any specialists or people already working with the problem.
- ThomPete 12y ago
  I am not sure what you mean. Danish government is cutting down primarily in the humanistic fields around 4000 chairs all in all. A lot of people who live in Copenhagen go to "University of Southern Denmark" it's not so important where it happens. Denmark have way too many people in the humanistic field and they are rightfully cutting that down. Also keep in mind. Education is 100% free plus you get subsidized when you take education.
  - wisienkas 12y ago
    I just think theirs a higher chance that you'll stay in the area where you took your education. so in that regard some areas might go short on workforce in a few years. Apart from that you are all right. I get "paid" for studying, which of course comes at the cost of my earning being cut in half or well less for the rest of my life, do I decide to work in Denmark. I think and have thought for a long time that you should lend the money instead, so that you won't have any people just studying to "leech". But maybe that's a discussing for elsewhere.
    - ThomPete 12y ago
      Everyone is moving to Copenhagen. Denmark is a small country. Even people who live in southern Denmark work in Copenhagen the drive is 1-2 hours max I actually left for the US but I am more or less autodidact so I didn't leech :)
      - wisienkas 12y ago
        You are right that Denmark is a small country, I've been to USA too, and I talked to a lot of people working in cities 2-3 hours drive away. So by that yes. However, and I might be somewhat wrong, but I've seen more people beginning to crowd around either Odense, Aarhus or Aalborg the last few years. This is however my own observation from students who finished their education that I've run into.
BrianEatWorld 12y ago
Doesn't supply and demand dictate that keeping population constant and limiting career options will lead to an increase in supply in the still available career paths? This will either be met by a decline in real wages or, if real wages can't adapt due to regulations, an increase in unemployment in those fields? This seems a lot like trying to cure a symptom without understanding the actual sickness.
crazy1van 12y ago
I am for people choosing whatever major they want and taking on as much debt as they feel comfortable. However, that freedom comes with the responsibility of dealing with the job prospects attached to that major and the financial burden of repaying those student loans. Many students seem to think they should be able to choose a major with poor job prospects, take on a lot of debt, and then complain to government and society to fix their unemployment and debt woes. Well, this kind of policy is what that leads to. If people want the government to insure they have a job and absolve them of their debt, they should be prepared for a world where the government also dictates what they can study.
- ThomPete 12y ago
  That is exactly the problem. There is a generation of young people who grew up believing that education is a right rather a privilege and are now complaining that they spent all this time educating themselves and now there are no jobs. You would be surprised how much airtime this kind of entitlement gets in the press in Denmark. The sad truth is that education isn't what it used to be because educating one-self in a world where new information is added in ever increasing quantity is a never ending process. And so if you only think you need to really learn and study when you are at the university you couldn't be more wrong it starts in your childhood. This unfortunately is lost on most.
  - x0x0 12y ago
    You know, those students didn't get that idea out of thin air...
vesinisa 12y ago
In Scandinavia, the universities are generally almost 100% tax-funded, so one might say it's right for the government to demand a higher "Return Of Investment". Surely there could also be private tuition-funded universities and/or tuition-funded programs in public universities for those who can and want to finance a decree in a purely humanistic field.

29 points by MrJagil 12y ago

MrJagil 12y ago

I thought it was interesting with this discussion in mind: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394136 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8394136 As other countries have shown some socialist movements in recent years (Obamacare, weed legalization, Germany making universities free etc), we in Denmark, praised for equality and happiness, are tightening the screw. We are not studying for knowledge anymore, but for profits. Though I am Danish, I am not trying to complain or be overly emotional. It just seems very interesting that we're all, globally, moving towards the middle. Yes, I am painting with _very_ broad strokes.

taylodl 12y ago
At some point in time the University stopped being the place to gain knowledge and instead became a trade school to gain a job. It's a reflection of society's values: money and the things it buys is more important than knowledge. Maybe it always was and we were just kidding ourselves thinking we ever really valued knowledge. Anyway this will be interesting to see how it plays out.
- fennecfoxen 12y ago
  Well, let's be realistic. At some point in time the University also stopped being the place where privileged elites, noblemen and merchants and the like, sent their children (already destined for reasonably lucrative careers) to become better people and to appreciate refinement in things like Knowledge and Philosophy, rather than just in Money. It's now a really democratic institution, with large sums of taxpayer funding available to people from all walks of life. This is probably a net win, and it shouldn't be seen as ostentatiously degrading to pay some heed to the exigencies of The Real World and outcomes there. The question, naturally, is one of balance, how to avoid both "university as trade school" and ivory-tower head-in-the-clouds detachment from reality.
- jerf 12y ago
  It was when we decided to send everybody to University instead of just a certain set. A different group of people went in with different expectations. If you understand it properly it's hard to even call it wrong. As it is often easy for the elites to forget, knowledge-focused university training is a luxury, in the sense that we can only have it if we also have a solid enough social foundation that we have the excess resources to dedicate people to not-immediately-productive tasks. Lately I'd say our elites have done a fairly poor job tending the foundation.
- MrJagil 12y ago
  It just seems strange to me that despite swaths of evidence, people in position of power _still_ think in short terms. Though we all agree computer science is very important these days, who can deny the societal importance of philosophy, psychology etc despite the job market being narrower. Even fringe studies such as eskimology (the study of Eskimo's, and yes, you can study that in DK) will certainly have value in some way or another, same as going to the moon. Knowledge for knowledge's sake is important exactly because we don't know it's importance or value.
  - lordnacho 12y ago
    "It just seems strange to me that despite swaths of evidence, people in position of power _still_ think in short terms." Are you kidding me? There's an election every four years and under the current government there's been umpteen reshuffles. Politicians have to respond to incentives, I mean opinion polls. As a fellow Dane I am not surprised at all that our politicians, many of whom are only partway through (the same) degree when they are elected, would take the short view of things.
    - mkaziz 12y ago
      Does that mean the inability to think for the long term is a fundamental limitation of modern democracies?
      - lordnacho 12y ago
        Well, I don't know if it's fundamental. I hope not. Perhaps you could change the constitution somehow. You could mess with term lengths or limit someone's tenure. Or you could have a part time parliament like in Switzerland. That way the politicians need normal jobs and are not dependent on the voters for a livelihood. The question is, once you have the current system, how are you going to get the incumbents to vote themselves out of work?
      - lordnacho 12y ago
        Well, I don't know if it's fundamental. I hope not. Perhaps you could change the constitution somehow. You could mess with term lengths or limit someone's tenure. Or you could have a part time parliament like in Switzerland. That way the politicians need normal jobs and are not dependent on the voters for a livelihood. The question is, once you have the current system, how are you going to get the incumbents to vote themselves out of work?
nextos 12y ago
At the risk of oversimplifying, I have also noted that Denmark is becoming less Scandinavian in many areas. Which is sad, as people running the country got so many things right in the 1980-2000s. Many KU or DTU departments that ranked amongst the very best have fallen apart. As a foreigner, I have sensed an alarming increase in nepotism.

mukundmr 12y ago

So the 15000 students will be forced to join the courses in demand and that will dry up due to increased supply. Then what? Will they keep moving courses around every year? What happens to the teaching faculty for some course that goes away and comes back?

ThomPete 12y ago
Denmark have had a longstanding issue with too many students choosing humanistic fields and going straight out to unemployment. It's a welcome decision.
- JamisonM 12y ago
  It is at least a perceived longstanding issue, how large a problem is it really? How large an economic impact does it have? I suspect that the government did not actually investigate those factors. Denmark's unemployment rate stands well below the EU average, better than Finland, France, Estonia, Belgium, and comparable to the Czech Republic. Fixing possible non-problems with solutions that may have long-term negative consequences is usually bad policy. No one knows what the future of employment is going to look like.
  - ThomPete 12y ago
    It's not a non-problem its a big problem especially in a country where education is free. Unemployment is low because the public sector is huge and take a lot of those people in. But a smaller and smaller percentage of the population pays for that and so they can't continue growing it. This is the main reason why they are cutting down. With some of the highest taxes in the world and also free health care plus very liberal social welfare model this is unsustainable. And you could might as well turn it around. How big a problem is it really that they minimize their approval of humanistic applicants. Denmark is doing bad when it comes to building companies. It's very easy to start a company but growing it is extremely difficult and not financially as rewarding. They need more people to start doing stuff not just getting hired. And then we haven't even touched on the more fundamental issue with the way Denmark thought and still think about education.

wisienkas 12y ago

From what I further read about this issue, was that in south denmark, more directly "University of Southern Denmark" was being cut by up to 50% in some courses, but the unemployment in that area only being about 5-10%. What I don't understand is that the danish government didn't plan the cutdown with any specialists or people already working with the problem.

ThomPete 12y ago
I am not sure what you mean. Danish government is cutting down primarily in the humanistic fields around 4000 chairs all in all. A lot of people who live in Copenhagen go to "University of Southern Denmark" it's not so important where it happens. Denmark have way too many people in the humanistic field and they are rightfully cutting that down. Also keep in mind. Education is 100% free plus you get subsidized when you take education.
- wisienkas 12y ago
  I just think theirs a higher chance that you'll stay in the area where you took your education. so in that regard some areas might go short on workforce in a few years. Apart from that you are all right. I get "paid" for studying, which of course comes at the cost of my earning being cut in half or well less for the rest of my life, do I decide to work in Denmark. I think and have thought for a long time that you should lend the money instead, so that you won't have any people just studying to "leech". But maybe that's a discussing for elsewhere.
  - ThomPete 12y ago
    Everyone is moving to Copenhagen. Denmark is a small country. Even people who live in southern Denmark work in Copenhagen the drive is 1-2 hours max I actually left for the US but I am more or less autodidact so I didn't leech :)
    - wisienkas 12y ago
      You are right that Denmark is a small country, I've been to USA too, and I talked to a lot of people working in cities 2-3 hours drive away. So by that yes. However, and I might be somewhat wrong, but I've seen more people beginning to crowd around either Odense, Aarhus or Aalborg the last few years. This is however my own observation from students who finished their education that I've run into.

BrianEatWorld 12y ago

Doesn't supply and demand dictate that keeping population constant and limiting career options will lead to an increase in supply in the still available career paths? This will either be met by a decline in real wages or, if real wages can't adapt due to regulations, an increase in unemployment in those fields? This seems a lot like trying to cure a symptom without understanding the actual sickness.

crazy1van 12y ago

I am for people choosing whatever major they want and taking on as much debt as they feel comfortable. However, that freedom comes with the responsibility of dealing with the job prospects attached to that major and the financial burden of repaying those student loans. Many students seem to think they should be able to choose a major with poor job prospects, take on a lot of debt, and then complain to government and society to fix their unemployment and debt woes. Well, this kind of policy is what that leads to. If people want the government to insure they have a job and absolve them of their debt, they should be prepared for a world where the government also dictates what they can study.

ThomPete 12y ago
That is exactly the problem. There is a generation of young people who grew up believing that education is a right rather a privilege and are now complaining that they spent all this time educating themselves and now there are no jobs. You would be surprised how much airtime this kind of entitlement gets in the press in Denmark. The sad truth is that education isn't what it used to be because educating one-self in a world where new information is added in ever increasing quantity is a never ending process. And so if you only think you need to really learn and study when you are at the university you couldn't be more wrong it starts in your childhood. This unfortunately is lost on most.
- x0x0 12y ago
  You know, those students didn't get that idea out of thin air...

vesinisa 12y ago

In Scandinavia, the universities are generally almost 100% tax-funded, so one might say it's right for the government to demand a higher "Return Of Investment". Surely there could also be private tuition-funded universities and/or tuition-funded programs in public universities for those who can and want to finance a decree in a purely humanistic field.