8 ms·

I have to agree with the initial comment on the article, this is a fear mongering piece. Anyone that has a working knowledge of firearms can put together a usab

I have to agree with the initial comment on the article, this is a fear mongering piece. Anyone that has a working knowledge of firearms can put together a usable weapon using readily available parts. In fact, a trip to home depot is all you need in order to build a crude (and pretty dangerous) shotgun. I also think it goes without saying that a criminal would probably opt to spend the $1,200 required to buy this CNC device on a weapon (or weapons) that have already been assembled.

drzaiusapelord 12y ago
Not to mention, its been trivial to build "zip guns" with basic tools. Crude pistols aren't that tough to make, especially when the heavy lifting (making of reliable and safe ammo) is already done for you.
- diydsp 12y ago
  >> crude (and pretty dangerous) shotgun > "zip guns" This helps people make a fully automatic machine gun, an AR-15, not a single-shot gun.
  - hga 12y ago
    No, it takes a semi-auto 80% receiver and finished the remaining 20%. (And after that, "Some assembly is required," e.g http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11004/learn/ http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11004/learn/ .) But if you want to be concerned, look at how utterly simple a full auto (simpler that way, e.g. firing pin is a bump in the bolt face) 9mm Sten gun is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten (A semi-auto AR15 is a much more capable weapon, BTW.)
    - angersock 12y ago
      What's darkly funny to me is that those things are illegal. Perhaps the biggest event in favor of keeping such weapons outlawed was the North Hollywood shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout, basically IRL Payday), and yet only two people--the robbers--were killed!
      - hga 12y ago
        Actually not. Only ones manufactured after 1986; there are roughly 250,000 in private circulation (and I can dig up a current case where a police department is selling a vintage 1920s Thompson sub-machinegun so they can buy stuff they need). ADDED: per the NRA's page on California gun laws, in theory its even legal to have and transport one, although evidently the permits to do so are never granted (well, I assume except for Hollywood...). 2 known illegal uses of legal machine guns in private hands in the US ... one by a cop....
    - diydsp 12y ago
      Sorry, i forgot to mention the numerous modifications which can make an AR-15 automatic. It's true this device alone doesn't make an automatic weapon, but it certainly catalyzes the process of making an untraceable automatic weapon. Once you have made an untraceable semi-auto AR-15 with this device, you can then make it untraceable auto with numerous ways.
      - hga 12y ago
        It turns out the BATF has a metric in terms of tools, skill and time needed to turn a semi-auto gun into full auto, and has banned ones that fall below that threshold, like MAC-10 and -11 clones with fixed firing pins in the bolt face. And, no, it doesn't catalyze this, or at least no more than allowing the sale of millions of finished AR-15s. Those are a lot closer than a 80% receiver and a pile of parts, "Some assembly required".
        diydsp 12y ago
        > the sale of millions of finished AR-15s ITYM millions of traceable AR-15s. If someone wants an untraceable machine gun, they can buy this device and perform mods. ∴ This device catalyzes making untraceable machine guns.
        seanflyon 12y ago
        What makes those guns traceable? The fact that they have a serial number on them (which can easily be filed off)?
        hga 12y ago
        And why do we give a damn about tracing? It very seldom solves crimes, since the vast majority of guns used in crimes are stolen, or otherwise illegally procured, like most machine guns (all but 2 used in crimes to our knowledge. If you really want this you have probably either watched too much TV or want to score political points and harass gun stores, distributors and/or manufacturers. See Fast and Furious for the most notorious example of this.
    - sudowhodoido 12y ago
      This. Sten plans to give you an idea how easy this is: http://stevespages.com/pdf/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instructions.pdf http://stevespages.com/pdf/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instruc... Really don't need much of a machine shop to knock one of them out.
  - igetspam 12y ago
    No. It helps them make a semi automatic rifle, an AR-15, not a machine gun. One pull, one shot.
  - rgrieselhuber 12y ago
    This is why gun owners get nervous when people who don't understand firearms try to legislate their ownership.
    - tjradcliffe 12y ago
      Your comment implies that there are two classes of people, "gun owners who understand firearms" and "non-gun owners who do not understand firearms". A casual glance at the deplorable accidental and unintentional discharge rates in the US statistics should make it immediately clear that gun ownership and understanding firearms have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I say this as a non-gun-owner who was taught to shoot the old fashion way, by a 12 year old friend who got a rifle for Christmas when I was 11, and have subsequently taken enough firearms training, including in the armed forces, to understand firearms well enough to be terrified of the huge number of ignorant clowns who own them, no matter how well-informed and responsible the majority of gun owners are most of the time. It is also worth pointing out that since the point of firearms is to make it really easy to kill things it would be disingenuous and stupid to claim anything other than "a gun owner only needs to fail in their understanding or self control for a moment to kill someone", and anyone who believes of their fellow gun-owners, "we never make mistakes"... well, people like that have good company in murderous tyrants the world over. Everyone makes mistakes now and then. When people with guns make mistakes, other people die. Because the purpose of guns is to make killing really easy, and when you have a technology that makes something really easy you get more of it. To claim otherwise is to claim that intercontinental travel was as common before steamships as after, which is false. Guns are a tool to solve a problem: killing things. Gun advocates in the US claim that this tool, and this tool alone, can be applied to the unrelated problem of personal safety. I say this is an unrelated problem because it is: in every other developed nation it has been solved more effectively than it has been solved in the US, without substantial reference to guns. Let me say this again: the problem of personal safety has been solved better (people are safer) in every other developed nation without ubiquitous firearms. This is just a fact. Murder rates in Canada are lower than in the US. Murder rates in England, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Switzerland (where firearms are all inaccessible, remember), etc are all lower than in the US. People in those countries are safer than in the US, despite the freedom of all Americans to carry firearms and the overwhelming victory of the gun lobby in the US in the past couple of decades. So anyone who advocates firearms as a good solution to the problem of personal safety is like someone advocating bloodletting for personal health. It is a solution that has been tried and failed. It's time to move on to something else, like civilization and the rule of law.
  - venomsnake 12y ago
    So? Every person in US has legal access to 4 tons of screaming death on demand. The amount of assaults done by car is minuscule.
jboggan 12y ago
As an illustration of the above point about Home Depot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwCP2Og__Go#t=94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwCP2Og__Go#t=94
mcmancini 12y ago
And to underscore how a usable rifle may be constructed with readily available parts, I present a personal favorite, the AK-47 built from a receiver recycled from a shovel: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DI...
- gknoy 12y ago
  I will admit that I rather wish I had the skills and knowledge necessary to do something like that. Amazing.
  - ctdonath 12y ago
    Easily acquired. Your new hobby awaits you.
- poopchute 12y ago
  I wouldn't exactly say those are readily available parts. The guy needed all sorts of metal working tools and a kiln to melt the shovel down.
  - mcmancini 12y ago
    Everything he used can be found in a home workshop, especially the workshop of someone with metalworking experience. I'd guess you'd have easier time finding these tools than a home CNC mill that can handle Al.
venomsnake 12y ago
Don't say that. They will outlaw education next. Any person with high school knowledge of physics and chemistry can mcguyver himself a lot of really deadly stuff. Or just buy a drone, strap something light and sharp to it, and just nodedive it into the target.
- neverminder 12y ago
  They already did that. Roguesci (Rogue Science) Explosives & Weapons forum was brought down by US government. That place was the most solid source of information I've ever seen in this particular area. http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/3641-what-happened-to-the-rogue-science-ew-forum/ http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/3641-what-happened-t...
ChuckMcM 12y ago
Exactly, and it never too "tens of thousands" of dollars to buy a mill unless you were buying one new. A used Bridgeport that can turn out all the parts for say .45 cal automatics (or lower receivers for an AR15) can be had with minimal tooling for less than $10K and usually less than $5K.

drzaiusapelord 12y ago

Not to mention, its been trivial to build "zip guns" with basic tools. Crude pistols aren't that tough to make, especially when the heavy lifting (making of reliable and safe ammo) is already done for you.

diydsp 12y ago
>> crude (and pretty dangerous) shotgun > "zip guns" This helps people make a fully automatic machine gun, an AR-15, not a single-shot gun.
- hga 12y ago
  No, it takes a semi-auto 80% receiver and finished the remaining 20%. (And after that, "Some assembly is required," e.g http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11004/learn/ http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=11004/learn/ .) But if you want to be concerned, look at how utterly simple a full auto (simpler that way, e.g. firing pin is a bump in the bolt face) 9mm Sten gun is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sten (A semi-auto AR15 is a much more capable weapon, BTW.)
  - angersock 12y ago
    What's darkly funny to me is that those things are illegal. Perhaps the biggest event in favor of keeping such weapons outlawed was the North Hollywood shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout, basically IRL Payday), and yet only two people--the robbers--were killed!
    - hga 12y ago
      Actually not. Only ones manufactured after 1986; there are roughly 250,000 in private circulation (and I can dig up a current case where a police department is selling a vintage 1920s Thompson sub-machinegun so they can buy stuff they need). ADDED: per the NRA's page on California gun laws, in theory its even legal to have and transport one, although evidently the permits to do so are never granted (well, I assume except for Hollywood...). 2 known illegal uses of legal machine guns in private hands in the US ... one by a cop....
  - diydsp 12y ago
    Sorry, i forgot to mention the numerous modifications which can make an AR-15 automatic. It's true this device alone doesn't make an automatic weapon, but it certainly catalyzes the process of making an untraceable automatic weapon. Once you have made an untraceable semi-auto AR-15 with this device, you can then make it untraceable auto with numerous ways.
    - hga 12y ago
      It turns out the BATF has a metric in terms of tools, skill and time needed to turn a semi-auto gun into full auto, and has banned ones that fall below that threshold, like MAC-10 and -11 clones with fixed firing pins in the bolt face. And, no, it doesn't catalyze this, or at least no more than allowing the sale of millions of finished AR-15s. Those are a lot closer than a 80% receiver and a pile of parts, "Some assembly required".
      - diydsp 12y ago
        > the sale of millions of finished AR-15s ITYM millions of traceable AR-15s. If someone wants an untraceable machine gun, they can buy this device and perform mods. ∴ This device catalyzes making untraceable machine guns.
        seanflyon 12y ago
        What makes those guns traceable? The fact that they have a serial number on them (which can easily be filed off)?
        hga 12y ago
        And why do we give a damn about tracing? It very seldom solves crimes, since the vast majority of guns used in crimes are stolen, or otherwise illegally procured, like most machine guns (all but 2 used in crimes to our knowledge. If you really want this you have probably either watched too much TV or want to score political points and harass gun stores, distributors and/or manufacturers. See Fast and Furious for the most notorious example of this.
  - sudowhodoido 12y ago
    This. Sten plans to give you an idea how easy this is: http://stevespages.com/pdf/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instructions.pdf http://stevespages.com/pdf/sten_mk2_complete_machine_instruc... Really don't need much of a machine shop to knock one of them out.
- igetspam 12y ago
  No. It helps them make a semi automatic rifle, an AR-15, not a machine gun. One pull, one shot.
- rgrieselhuber 12y ago
  This is why gun owners get nervous when people who don't understand firearms try to legislate their ownership.
  - tjradcliffe 12y ago
    Your comment implies that there are two classes of people, "gun owners who understand firearms" and "non-gun owners who do not understand firearms". A casual glance at the deplorable accidental and unintentional discharge rates in the US statistics should make it immediately clear that gun ownership and understanding firearms have absolutely nothing to do with each other. I say this as a non-gun-owner who was taught to shoot the old fashion way, by a 12 year old friend who got a rifle for Christmas when I was 11, and have subsequently taken enough firearms training, including in the armed forces, to understand firearms well enough to be terrified of the huge number of ignorant clowns who own them, no matter how well-informed and responsible the majority of gun owners are most of the time. It is also worth pointing out that since the point of firearms is to make it really easy to kill things it would be disingenuous and stupid to claim anything other than "a gun owner only needs to fail in their understanding or self control for a moment to kill someone", and anyone who believes of their fellow gun-owners, "we never make mistakes"... well, people like that have good company in murderous tyrants the world over. Everyone makes mistakes now and then. When people with guns make mistakes, other people die. Because the purpose of guns is to make killing really easy, and when you have a technology that makes something really easy you get more of it. To claim otherwise is to claim that intercontinental travel was as common before steamships as after, which is false. Guns are a tool to solve a problem: killing things. Gun advocates in the US claim that this tool, and this tool alone, can be applied to the unrelated problem of personal safety. I say this is an unrelated problem because it is: in every other developed nation it has been solved more effectively than it has been solved in the US, without substantial reference to guns. Let me say this again: the problem of personal safety has been solved better (people are safer) in every other developed nation without ubiquitous firearms. This is just a fact. Murder rates in Canada are lower than in the US. Murder rates in England, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, Switzerland (where firearms are all inaccessible, remember), etc are all lower than in the US. People in those countries are safer than in the US, despite the freedom of all Americans to carry firearms and the overwhelming victory of the gun lobby in the US in the past couple of decades. So anyone who advocates firearms as a good solution to the problem of personal safety is like someone advocating bloodletting for personal health. It is a solution that has been tried and failed. It's time to move on to something else, like civilization and the rule of law.
- venomsnake 12y ago
  So? Every person in US has legal access to 4 tons of screaming death on demand. The amount of assaults done by car is minuscule.

jboggan 12y ago

As an illustration of the above point about Home Depot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwCP2Og__Go#t=94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwCP2Og__Go#t=94

mcmancini 12y ago

And to underscore how a usable rifle may be constructed with readily available parts, I present a personal favorite, the AK-47 built from a receiver recycled from a shovel: http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel-AK-photo-tsunami-warning http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DI...

gknoy 12y ago
I will admit that I rather wish I had the skills and knowledge necessary to do something like that. Amazing.
- ctdonath 12y ago
  Easily acquired. Your new hobby awaits you.
poopchute 12y ago
I wouldn't exactly say those are readily available parts. The guy needed all sorts of metal working tools and a kiln to melt the shovel down.
- mcmancini 12y ago
  Everything he used can be found in a home workshop, especially the workshop of someone with metalworking experience. I'd guess you'd have easier time finding these tools than a home CNC mill that can handle Al.

venomsnake 12y ago

Don't say that. They will outlaw education next. Any person with high school knowledge of physics and chemistry can mcguyver himself a lot of really deadly stuff. Or just buy a drone, strap something light and sharp to it, and just nodedive it into the target.

neverminder 12y ago
They already did that. Roguesci (Rogue Science) Explosives & Weapons forum was brought down by US government. That place was the most solid source of information I've ever seen in this particular area. http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/3641-what-happened-to-the-rogue-science-ew-forum/ http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/3641-what-happened-t...

ChuckMcM 12y ago

Exactly, and it never too "tens of thousands" of dollars to buy a mill unless you were buying one new. A used Bridgeport that can turn out all the parts for say .45 cal automatics (or lower receivers for an AR15) can be had with minimal tooling for less than $10K and usually less than $5K.