7 ms·

Immigration Crackdown on Digital Nomads in Chiang Mai, Thailand

78 points by cbovis 12y ago

cbovis 12y ago
What initially seemed like an issue turned out to be a potential win for digital nomads (at least in Thailand). "Although one of the people detained is extremely worried and does not want her name associated at all with todays events, in the long run, I believe this is a win for location independent entrepreneurs. After checking my passport and seeing that I'm on a valid tourist visa and haven't overstayed, and that I have no blacklist or warrants internationally, I was free to go. I even hung out at immigration a tiny bit longer and got my 30 day extension while I was there. The owners of PunSpace were also nice enough to give us all another month for free for the trouble."
- ashconnor 12y ago
  Exactly. It does indeed look like Chiang Mai will not enforce laws prohibiting digital nomads from working. If anyone wants to know more about Thai immigration law in regards to Digital Nomads: http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-and-immigration-law/ http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-...
  - corv 12y ago
    According to the Alien Working Act of 2008 quoted in the article even using a washing machine would be considered work by Thai Law: “work” means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit;
latch 12y ago
Although this appears to have been a misunderstanding, the government has warned that it would stop visa-runs [1]. So it's possible the people here won't be able to get a new tourist visa for some time. [1] http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investigation/423791/coming-to-the-end-of-the-run http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investigation/423791/coming-...
- BenC88 12y ago
  Most digital nomads have an actual visa (albeit a tourist one) rather than a visa exempt stamp, so the crackdown on visa runs isn't really an issue.
- apatters 12y ago
  The government has been applying more scrutiny to foreigners who repeatedly leave and re-enter on 30 day visa exemptions. Actual visas (tourist or otherwise) have not been affected by this (though some have had other, minor changes). Immigration provides Thai consulates with guidelines for how to assess visa applications, but each consulate's process is different. In the case of acquiring a tourist visa from the Thai consulate in Vientiane, Laos (one of the looser ones where a lot of visa runners go), they tend not to ask many questions until you've acquired at least three back-to-back tourist visas. Considering that one tourist visa can be extended to provide around 90 days in the Kingdom, that's a lot of time in Thailand! For the digital nomad crowd, 9 months in Thailand is still pretty easy to do with a visa run to Laos every 90 days. People are doing it every day and I haven't heard of anyone getting knocked back as long as they have their paperwork in order and pay their visa fees.
bertil 12y ago
I'm assuming the wage disparity between digital nomad and local thai would be wide and offensive to the immigration officers — but that would really help explain why anyone would want to do that. It also shows the importance of having well-informed civil servants.
- peteretep 12y ago
  > I'm assuming the wage disparity between digital nomad > and local thai would be wide and offensive to the > immigration officers The standard Thai response to foreigners having lots of money is not offence, it's opportunity.
  - vidarh 12y ago
    Indeed it's usually wealthy countries that tends to have the strictest immigration laws. Many poorer countries will even let you buy full residency for a near pittance by western standards.
cageface 12y ago
They ever showed the officers letters saying that they were operation a coworking space which is similar to an internet cafe, and that no one here is working for a Thai company or making Thai wages, meaning they are not taking Thai jobs or working illegally. Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind of thing. If you're earning money in Thailand then you need all the right permits and paperwork. It doesn't matter if you're not working for a Thai company or doing business in Thailand. They've let this kind of thing slide for a long time but the new junta is cracking down hard on all kinds of visa violations. Those of us in Vietnam and Cambodia are expecting an influx of Thai expat refugees.
- guard-of-terra 12y ago
  That's a stupid thing to do. I know from podcasts that there are Russian companies who let their Russian developers stay in Thailand on a business visa, developing their product for Russian audience. What does Thailand gains by scaring those people? After all they spend a lot of their wage money there. What's the downside?
  - curiouscats 12y ago
    Yes it would be unwise. The authorities let everyone go once they figure out what was going on - they seemed to think the people were employees of the cafe... The policy is fairly straightforward, but letting people do "digital nomad" work while trying to stop those taking jobs in a country isn't so easy. A bunch of countries in SE Asia seem to have economic development people in favor of attracting these people to their country. But coordinating with the immigration enforcement authorities isn't very well developed (given the systems in place this isn't an easy problem it will likely be messy for awhile). And if long term visitors are seen as negative (often for acting out and making asses of themselves) this can lead to crackdowns. A few jerks are very noticeable, so a large community of good visitors can be seen as a negative based on just a few bad actors.
  - riffraff 12y ago
    thinking as a thai junta member: if you want to stay here, and work here, please be kind enough as to pay 40% of your wage in taxes rather than spend 5% on fried rice.
tomp 12y ago
TL;DR: Some people are idiots and don't carry passports with them AT ALL TIMES when travelling abroad. AFAIK, having a legal identification document at all times is a legal requirement even for citizens in the EU, or at least in Slovenia.
- BenC88 12y ago
  Some would argue what carrying your passport at all times is riskier than facing a small fine.
  - nraynaud 12y ago
    I would advise you to at least keep a copy of it. In France that I know best, they could book you up to four hours to find your identity without any suspicion of wrongdoing. But if you carry a copy of it, everything changes, because now they have to either accept it as true or make a case for falsification of papers ID.
    - wila 12y ago
      Same in Thailand. The copy is not legally valid, but helps a lot when asked for your ID. If you show enough respect to the officer then it might be sufficient. Side note I lived in Thailand for several years and was never asked for an ID.
- cageface 12y ago
  Carrying a copy of your passport is an excellent idea. Carrying your actual passport around is a great way to lose it and spend the rest of your vacation in an immigration office dealing with paperwork.
  - qwerta 12y ago
    + driving license as valid ID.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
redgetan 12y ago
Wonder if this is just a simple case of misinterpretation. Nomads talking to person1: We work at PunSpace, you should check it out! person1: Cool! So you guys must have work visas then? Nomads: No, you don't need a visa to work there :) person1: Oh really! That's awesome. Then someone else overheard and thought Nomads are actually working for PunSpace company.
archagon 12y ago
The title is misleading. There was no crackdown on digital nomads. It was a misunderstanding.
- ricardonunez 12y ago
  The title was not misleading when he created the post. The update ended up clarifying the situation later.
rdlecler1 12y ago
It seems that they should just creste a nomad visa. Charge 3% income tax when people are being payed by an out of country entity.
godzilla82 12y ago
But don't all countries have laws like that? If you are paid in country x, you have to have a work visa for x and have to pay taxes on it. In some countries, you pay taxes on the money you make abroad as well, even if you don't ever intend to bring the money. For example, on an L visa in US, I was paid salary in my home country and an allowance in US. At home I got taxed on just the salary, but in US I had to pay taxes for the salary I got back home as well.
knotty66 12y ago
I personally wouldn't work from Punspace or anywhere similar in Thailand until the laws are clarified. It's too risky. Even when not under military rule, the Thai state, police and immigration change laws - or their interpretation of them - on a whim. One day the laws will change without notice or they'll come looking for tea-money and all the rich farang workers (on tourist visas) herded together in somewhere like Punspace will be like shooting fish in a barrel for them. It won't matter that the work is being done for foreign companies. The digital-nomad type aren't the priority of Thailands tourist board. They typically spend very little compared to the rich Chinese and Japanese tourist they try to attract. I'd rather do any work from my hotel room or condo or from somewhere like wawee coffee where you would have plausible deniability than a designated 'co-workers space' - where the only reason you would be there is to work.
impe83 12y ago
yep the title its a bit misleading, makes you think that you guys where doing something illegal lol, but it was just an ordinary check, thats all
clamprecht 12y ago
UPDATES From the article: Update: The last of us volunteered to come to immigration on our own. We drove there unescorted. Turns out they thought we were employees of Punspace which is untrue. We're all still here but good news so far is that they aren't targeting digital nomads. Update: At Thai immigration near the airport, everyone got interviewed but were treated extremely kindly. It ended up taking a few hours and felt like a big waste of time, but nothing bad actually happened. The owners of PunSpace were even nice enough to bring us lunch. - See more at: http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html#sthash.EnYX5xno.dpuf http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-cra...
jagtesh 12y ago
I'm not surprised at all. In Canada, nobody is allowed to work on a Visitor Permit (Tourist Visa). Here, the definition of work is earning money in any way. In fact, they take it a step further: you can't even volunteer for a job that others get paid for! A Work Permit is required (getting which is a lengthy and tedious process without any guarantees whatsoever). US too is similar in this regard, although many companies misuse the B1/B2 business visa for work. Though legally speaking, it's not allowed.
joshdance 12y ago
The title is in-accurate and should be changed to "Digital Nomads caught in mistaken police raid". They are not cracking down.

78 points by cbovis 12y ago

What initially seemed like an issue turned out to be a potential win for digital nomads (at least in Thailand). "Although one of the people detained is extremely worried and does not want her name associated at all with todays events, in the long run, I believe this is a win for location independent entrepreneurs. After checking my passport and seeing that I'm on a valid tourist visa and haven't overstayed, and that I have no blacklist or warrants internationally, I was free to go. I even hung out at immigration a tiny bit longer and got my 30 day extension while I was there. The owners of PunSpace were also nice enough to give us all another month for free for the trouble."

ashconnor 12y ago
Exactly. It does indeed look like Chiang Mai will not enforce laws prohibiting digital nomads from working. If anyone wants to know more about Thai immigration law in regards to Digital Nomads: http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-and-immigration-law/ http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-...
- corv 12y ago
  According to the Alien Working Act of 2008 quoted in the article even using a washing machine would be considered work by Thai Law: “work” means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit;

latch 12y ago

Although this appears to have been a misunderstanding, the government has warned that it would stop visa-runs [1]. So it's possible the people here won't be able to get a new tourist visa for some time. [1] http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investigation/423791/coming-to-the-end-of-the-run http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/investigation/423791/coming-...

BenC88 12y ago
Most digital nomads have an actual visa (albeit a tourist one) rather than a visa exempt stamp, so the crackdown on visa runs isn't really an issue.
apatters 12y ago
The government has been applying more scrutiny to foreigners who repeatedly leave and re-enter on 30 day visa exemptions. Actual visas (tourist or otherwise) have not been affected by this (though some have had other, minor changes). Immigration provides Thai consulates with guidelines for how to assess visa applications, but each consulate's process is different. In the case of acquiring a tourist visa from the Thai consulate in Vientiane, Laos (one of the looser ones where a lot of visa runners go), they tend not to ask many questions until you've acquired at least three back-to-back tourist visas. Considering that one tourist visa can be extended to provide around 90 days in the Kingdom, that's a lot of time in Thailand! For the digital nomad crowd, 9 months in Thailand is still pretty easy to do with a visa run to Laos every 90 days. People are doing it every day and I haven't heard of anyone getting knocked back as long as they have their paperwork in order and pay their visa fees.

bertil 12y ago

I'm assuming the wage disparity between digital nomad and local thai would be wide and offensive to the immigration officers — but that would really help explain why anyone would want to do that. It also shows the importance of having well-informed civil servants.

peteretep 12y ago
> I'm assuming the wage disparity between digital nomad > and local thai would be wide and offensive to the > immigration officers The standard Thai response to foreigners having lots of money is not offence, it's opportunity.
- vidarh 12y ago
  Indeed it's usually wealthy countries that tends to have the strictest immigration laws. Many poorer countries will even let you buy full residency for a near pittance by western standards.

cageface 12y ago

They ever showed the officers letters saying that they were operation a coworking space which is similar to an internet cafe, and that no one here is working for a Thai company or making Thai wages, meaning they are not taking Thai jobs or working illegally. Unfortunately this is not how Thai law views this kind of thing. If you're earning money in Thailand then you need all the right permits and paperwork. It doesn't matter if you're not working for a Thai company or doing business in Thailand. They've let this kind of thing slide for a long time but the new junta is cracking down hard on all kinds of visa violations. Those of us in Vietnam and Cambodia are expecting an influx of Thai expat refugees.

guard-of-terra 12y ago
That's a stupid thing to do. I know from podcasts that there are Russian companies who let their Russian developers stay in Thailand on a business visa, developing their product for Russian audience. What does Thailand gains by scaring those people? After all they spend a lot of their wage money there. What's the downside?
- curiouscats 12y ago
  Yes it would be unwise. The authorities let everyone go once they figure out what was going on - they seemed to think the people were employees of the cafe... The policy is fairly straightforward, but letting people do "digital nomad" work while trying to stop those taking jobs in a country isn't so easy. A bunch of countries in SE Asia seem to have economic development people in favor of attracting these people to their country. But coordinating with the immigration enforcement authorities isn't very well developed (given the systems in place this isn't an easy problem it will likely be messy for awhile). And if long term visitors are seen as negative (often for acting out and making asses of themselves) this can lead to crackdowns. A few jerks are very noticeable, so a large community of good visitors can be seen as a negative based on just a few bad actors.
- riffraff 12y ago
  thinking as a thai junta member: if you want to stay here, and work here, please be kind enough as to pay 40% of your wage in taxes rather than spend 5% on fried rice.

tomp 12y ago

TL;DR: Some people are idiots and don't carry passports with them AT ALL TIMES when travelling abroad. AFAIK, having a legal identification document at all times is a legal requirement even for citizens in the EU, or at least in Slovenia.

BenC88 12y ago
Some would argue what carrying your passport at all times is riskier than facing a small fine.
- nraynaud 12y ago
  I would advise you to at least keep a copy of it. In France that I know best, they could book you up to four hours to find your identity without any suspicion of wrongdoing. But if you carry a copy of it, everything changes, because now they have to either accept it as true or make a case for falsification of papers ID.
  - wila 12y ago
    Same in Thailand. The copy is not legally valid, but helps a lot when asked for your ID. If you show enough respect to the officer then it might be sufficient. Side note I lived in Thailand for several years and was never asked for an ID.
cageface 12y ago
Carrying a copy of your passport is an excellent idea. Carrying your actual passport around is a great way to lose it and spend the rest of your vacation in an immigration office dealing with paperwork.
- qwerta 12y ago
  + driving license as valid ID.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago

redgetan 12y ago

Wonder if this is just a simple case of misinterpretation. Nomads talking to person1: We work at PunSpace, you should check it out! person1: Cool! So you guys must have work visas then? Nomads: No, you don't need a visa to work there :) person1: Oh really! That's awesome. Then someone else overheard and thought Nomads are actually working for PunSpace company.

archagon 12y ago

The title is misleading. There was no crackdown on digital nomads. It was a misunderstanding.

ricardonunez 12y ago
The title was not misleading when he created the post. The update ended up clarifying the situation later.

rdlecler1 12y ago

It seems that they should just creste a nomad visa. Charge 3% income tax when people are being payed by an out of country entity.

godzilla82 12y ago

But don't all countries have laws like that? If you are paid in country x, you have to have a work visa for x and have to pay taxes on it. In some countries, you pay taxes on the money you make abroad as well, even if you don't ever intend to bring the money. For example, on an L visa in US, I was paid salary in my home country and an allowance in US. At home I got taxed on just the salary, but in US I had to pay taxes for the salary I got back home as well.

knotty66 12y ago

I personally wouldn't work from Punspace or anywhere similar in Thailand until the laws are clarified. It's too risky. Even when not under military rule, the Thai state, police and immigration change laws - or their interpretation of them - on a whim. One day the laws will change without notice or they'll come looking for tea-money and all the rich farang workers (on tourist visas) herded together in somewhere like Punspace will be like shooting fish in a barrel for them. It won't matter that the work is being done for foreign companies. The digital-nomad type aren't the priority of Thailands tourist board. They typically spend very little compared to the rich Chinese and Japanese tourist they try to attract. I'd rather do any work from my hotel room or condo or from somewhere like wawee coffee where you would have plausible deniability than a designated 'co-workers space' - where the only reason you would be there is to work.

impe83 12y ago

yep the title its a bit misleading, makes you think that you guys where doing something illegal lol, but it was just an ordinary check, thats all

clamprecht 12y ago

UPDATES From the article: Update: The last of us volunteered to come to immigration on our own. We drove there unescorted. Turns out they thought we were employees of Punspace which is untrue. We're all still here but good news so far is that they aren't targeting digital nomads. Update: At Thai immigration near the airport, everyone got interviewed but were treated extremely kindly. It ended up taking a few hours and felt like a big waste of time, but nothing bad actually happened. The owners of PunSpace were even nice enough to bring us lunch. - See more at: http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-crackdown-in.html#sthash.EnYX5xno.dpuf http://www.johnnyfd.com/2014/09/live-updates-immigration-cra...

jagtesh 12y ago

I'm not surprised at all. In Canada, nobody is allowed to work on a Visitor Permit (Tourist Visa). Here, the definition of work is earning money in any way. In fact, they take it a step further: you can't even volunteer for a job that others get paid for! A Work Permit is required (getting which is a lengthy and tedious process without any guarantees whatsoever). US too is similar in this regard, although many companies misuse the B1/B2 business visa for work. Though legally speaking, it's not allowed.

joshdance 12y ago

The title is in-accurate and should be changed to "Digital Nomads caught in mistaken police raid". They are not cracking down.