6 ms·

Since when did defending your territory became 'ethnic cleansing'? Remind me, who went over the border? In a Ukrainian conflict, why do we keep hearing about R

by ydevnow 12y ago

Since when did defending your territory became 'ethnic cleansing'? Remind me, who went over the border? In a Ukrainian conflict, why do we keep hearing about Russian soldiers? Oh, and by the way, where did the bodies of 4000 dead Russian soldiers go? Wait, how did they get to Ukraine in the first place? http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/27/rights-activist-4000-russian-soldiers-missing-or-dead-in-east-%E2%80%8Eukraine%E2%80%AC/ http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/27/rights-activist-4000-r... And please, don't quite RT.

Mikeb85 12y ago
Defending your territory? From what, the people who already live there? The operations in the east were essentially punitive, simply because they didn't support the new government. Yanukovych never sent the army after the protesters, yet the new Kyiv government did... I don't know if you remember the sequence of events, but Donetsk never separated and formed an army until after the massive escalation of violence by the pro-western Ukrainians... > Oh, and by the way, where did the bodies of 4000 dead Russian soldiers go? Wait, how did they get to Ukraine in the first place? If you honestly believe the completely incompetent and inept Ukrainian armed forces could kill 4000 Russian soldiers you're insane... The fact they were routed by a separatist force composed mostly of retired soldiers and volunteers with a few Russian advisers, despite having superior numbers and actually having air forces speaks to their competence, or lack thereof. By the way, the ceasefire was called because the Ukrainian military had basically given up, and many, if not most of the soldiers were on the verge of disbanding... Odds are they didn't even kill that many separatists...
- ydevnow 12y ago
  Incompetence is not with the Ukrainian army (maybe lack of finance is). The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/what-does-russia-tell-the-mothers-of-soldiers-killed-in-ukraine-not-much/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29... If you still think there aren't any Russian soldiers, in Ukraine, there is a label for that: a troll. Russian soldiers have been killed, interviewed, captured, and shipped back to Russia (not in that particular order, of course) http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-t... And yes, defending your country from a Russian invasion is not 'ethnic cleansing': it's just defending your territory. It's not a conspiracy.
  - trhway 12y ago
    > The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. Russia had invaded Ukraine and Ukraine could do nothing - Crimea. The war in Donbass isn't "defending your country from a Russian invasion", it is volunteer battalions of nationalists, heavily armed and supported by Kiev government airforce, trying to pacify the region. Russia is supporting the rebels of course (for historic precedents read about "Zaporozskaya Sech" - it is amazing how history repeats itself). If Russia actually invaded, there wouldn't be any war already, like in Crimea. Several paratrooper battalions and tank assault groups occasionally performing some combat incursions isn't an invasion, just a favor to the rebels when it was absolutely critical for the survival of the rebellion (in August, months after Kiev started the "pacifying" operation).
  - e12e 12y ago
    Yes, there are Russian soldiers unofficially in Ukraine. There are US soldiers there too: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/22/pentagon-team-dispatched-to-ukraine-amid-crisis-wi/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/22/pentagon-tea... Doesn't mean the US has invaded Ukraine.
    - steauengeglase 12y ago
      Do you have a non-Washington Times link? W.T. is often dubious. When not dubious it is inflammatory.
  - vetinari 12y ago
    > The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. That's bullshit. Quoting Euromaidan sourced "news" is worse than quoting RT. If Russians were invading Ukraine, we would not talk about months long conflict. We would be talking about one week, tops. And they would not stay in Donbass, they would stop in Chop. How such operation works, see Czechoslovakia in 1968. Basically, your top brass wakes up in the morning and is looking into a barrel being held by some polite people.
    - ydevnow 12y ago
      Well, 1968 was almost half a century ago. And USSR is not the same thing as Russia. (Ukraine was unfortunately a part this godforsaken union, and was forced to fight on the side of the empire.) Needless to say, Russia did not invade Czechoslovakia by itself. USSR invaded Czechoslovakia. (If you want to put Russia in the subject, perhaps: Russia invaded Czechoslovakia with the help of its USSR union members.) Again, Russia ≠ USSR. Putin realizes this difference, which is why he employs these dirty tactics by lying that "soldiers on vacation" are volunteering to fight along side the terrorists in Ukraine. How these Russian soldiers on T-72 tanks entered Ukraine's territory 20km in is beyond me. http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-t... Kremlin claims they were lost. If they were indeed lost, this proves Russian army's incompetence, otherwise it is another case against Putin and his imperialistic ambitions. Over time the pile of lies and lies gets bigger, and it starts to crumble. This pile of lies has grown and overgrown Putin (~> 1.7m), and it is starting to lean towards him, and he has to pile some more and more lies to keep it from crumbling. But it is falling apart. As Obama pointed out, Russia is only a "regional power." That region ends where Russian border begins, and this is what we are seeing in Eastern Ukraine: a failing Russian invasion along with a pile of "bullshit" to compensate for incompetence. > That's bullshit. Quoting Euromaidan sourced "news" is worse than quoting RT. As per Euromaidan, if you are not happy, perhaps I can entertain you with Ukraine's own RT alternative: Ukraine Today (UT). You can watch it directly on youtube. (a little spoiler: it's not funded by Kremlin nor by the CIA) https://www.youtube.com/ut https://www.youtube.com/ut It is quite impressive how quickly they sprung up as a functioning international TV channel. I didn't know you could have a fully functional news station within a couple of months. But then again, we live in a new era, year 2014; not 1968.
trhway 12y ago
if not for Russian volunteers and hardware (and soldiers in the August) the Donbass would be blood bathed. It is a duty of the international community to stop crimes against humanity perpetrated by a government against its own people. Notice the difference between Crimea and Donbass - nobody shells the cities in Crimea - why? Because of full military presence of Russia. Putin of course didn't care about people and so he didn't send full force to Donbass unfortunately. Otherwise there wouldn't be that war on Donbass. >Since when did defending your territory became 'ethnic cleansing'? short answer - when you start defend your territory from the people leaving on that territory. Long - it is well recognized international law and practice (voiced very loudly by the Western countries in case of Kosovo for example) that a government/country perpetrating systemic discrimination and other crimes against a given ethnicity on a given territory loses the right to that territory. Clear case of Crimea and Donbass (and other Ukranian regions with significant Russian population)
- ydevnow 12y ago
  > Clear case of Crimea Yes. It is quite clear. Please explain me why Crimean Tatars have been kidnapped, murdered, interrogated, and repressed since Russia took over? (rhetorical) http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1404852996 http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1404852996 http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-hotili-zirvati-vistup-tatar-u-nyu-yorku-ale-ukrayina-ne-dala-cogo-zrobiti-369655.html http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-hotili-zirvati-vistup-tatar-u-... You can call it Imperial Racism - or just Rusczism.
  - trhway 12y ago
    if you know the centuries old history of that region and in particular of relations between Crimean Tatars and the rest of the population there, Russians included - you wouldn't be that surprised. Of course, Russia has a bunch of territories/ethnicities that wish (and have a lot of valid reasons to) they could go free like Estonia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, ... did. Chechnya would be among the first coming to mind, and if somebody asked me i'd say let them go. Like Eltsin did in 91' - "take as much sovereignty as you can carry away". Well, as you said - Empire. And it is trying to come back. And it isn't a good Empire if there are any. And trying to oppress Russian minority on the border with that Empire - not a smart move by any accounts. Hoping that Western countries would help - not a smart hope as Western countries tend to not like (at least not publicly) oppressions of minorities these days.

by ydevnow 12y ago

Mikeb85 12y ago

Defending your territory? From what, the people who already live there? The operations in the east were essentially punitive, simply because they didn't support the new government. Yanukovych never sent the army after the protesters, yet the new Kyiv government did... I don't know if you remember the sequence of events, but Donetsk never separated and formed an army until after the massive escalation of violence by the pro-western Ukrainians... > Oh, and by the way, where did the bodies of 4000 dead Russian soldiers go? Wait, how did they get to Ukraine in the first place? If you honestly believe the completely incompetent and inept Ukrainian armed forces could kill 4000 Russian soldiers you're insane... The fact they were routed by a separatist force composed mostly of retired soldiers and volunteers with a few Russian advisers, despite having superior numbers and actually having air forces speaks to their competence, or lack thereof. By the way, the ceasefire was called because the Ukrainian military had basically given up, and many, if not most of the soldiers were on the verge of disbanding... Odds are they didn't even kill that many separatists...

ydevnow 12y ago
Incompetence is not with the Ukrainian army (maybe lack of finance is). The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/what-does-russia-tell-the-mothers-of-soldiers-killed-in-ukraine-not-much/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29... If you still think there aren't any Russian soldiers, in Ukraine, there is a label for that: a troll. Russian soldiers have been killed, interviewed, captured, and shipped back to Russia (not in that particular order, of course) http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-t... And yes, defending your country from a Russian invasion is not 'ethnic cleansing': it's just defending your territory. It's not a conspiracy.
- trhway 12y ago
  > The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. Russia had invaded Ukraine and Ukraine could do nothing - Crimea. The war in Donbass isn't "defending your country from a Russian invasion", it is volunteer battalions of nationalists, heavily armed and supported by Kiev government airforce, trying to pacify the region. Russia is supporting the rebels of course (for historic precedents read about "Zaporozskaya Sech" - it is amazing how history repeats itself). If Russia actually invaded, there wouldn't be any war already, like in Crimea. Several paratrooper battalions and tank assault groups occasionally performing some combat incursions isn't an invasion, just a favor to the rebels when it was absolutely critical for the survival of the rebellion (in August, months after Kiev started the "pacifying" operation).
- e12e 12y ago
  Yes, there are Russian soldiers unofficially in Ukraine. There are US soldiers there too: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/22/pentagon-team-dispatched-to-ukraine-amid-crisis-wi/ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/22/pentagon-tea... Doesn't mean the US has invaded Ukraine.
  - steauengeglase 12y ago
    Do you have a non-Washington Times link? W.T. is often dubious. When not dubious it is inflammatory.
- vetinari 12y ago
  > The facts are there: Russia is invading Ukraine. That's bullshit. Quoting Euromaidan sourced "news" is worse than quoting RT. If Russians were invading Ukraine, we would not talk about months long conflict. We would be talking about one week, tops. And they would not stay in Donbass, they would stop in Chop. How such operation works, see Czechoslovakia in 1968. Basically, your top brass wakes up in the morning and is looking into a barrel being held by some polite people.
  - ydevnow 12y ago
    Well, 1968 was almost half a century ago. And USSR is not the same thing as Russia. (Ukraine was unfortunately a part this godforsaken union, and was forced to fight on the side of the empire.) Needless to say, Russia did not invade Czechoslovakia by itself. USSR invaded Czechoslovakia. (If you want to put Russia in the subject, perhaps: Russia invaded Czechoslovakia with the help of its USSR union members.) Again, Russia ≠ USSR. Putin realizes this difference, which is why he employs these dirty tactics by lying that "soldiers on vacation" are volunteering to fight along side the terrorists in Ukraine. How these Russian soldiers on T-72 tanks entered Ukraine's territory 20km in is beyond me. http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-truth-behind-putins-secret-war-269227.html http://www.newsweek.com/2014/09/19/russian-soldiers-reveal-t... Kremlin claims they were lost. If they were indeed lost, this proves Russian army's incompetence, otherwise it is another case against Putin and his imperialistic ambitions. Over time the pile of lies and lies gets bigger, and it starts to crumble. This pile of lies has grown and overgrown Putin (~> 1.7m), and it is starting to lean towards him, and he has to pile some more and more lies to keep it from crumbling. But it is falling apart. As Obama pointed out, Russia is only a "regional power." That region ends where Russian border begins, and this is what we are seeing in Eastern Ukraine: a failing Russian invasion along with a pile of "bullshit" to compensate for incompetence. > That's bullshit. Quoting Euromaidan sourced "news" is worse than quoting RT. As per Euromaidan, if you are not happy, perhaps I can entertain you with Ukraine's own RT alternative: Ukraine Today (UT). You can watch it directly on youtube. (a little spoiler: it's not funded by Kremlin nor by the CIA) https://www.youtube.com/ut https://www.youtube.com/ut It is quite impressive how quickly they sprung up as a functioning international TV channel. I didn't know you could have a fully functional news station within a couple of months. But then again, we live in a new era, year 2014; not 1968.

trhway 12y ago

if not for Russian volunteers and hardware (and soldiers in the August) the Donbass would be blood bathed. It is a duty of the international community to stop crimes against humanity perpetrated by a government against its own people. Notice the difference between Crimea and Donbass - nobody shells the cities in Crimea - why? Because of full military presence of Russia. Putin of course didn't care about people and so he didn't send full force to Donbass unfortunately. Otherwise there wouldn't be that war on Donbass. >Since when did defending your territory became 'ethnic cleansing'? short answer - when you start defend your territory from the people leaving on that territory. Long - it is well recognized international law and practice (voiced very loudly by the Western countries in case of Kosovo for example) that a government/country perpetrating systemic discrimination and other crimes against a given ethnicity on a given territory loses the right to that territory. Clear case of Crimea and Donbass (and other Ukranian regions with significant Russian population)

ydevnow 12y ago
> Clear case of Crimea Yes. It is quite clear. Please explain me why Crimean Tatars have been kidnapped, murdered, interrogated, and repressed since Russia took over? (rhetorical) http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1404852996 http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1404852996 http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-hotili-zirvati-vistup-tatar-u-nyu-yorku-ale-ukrayina-ne-dala-cogo-zrobiti-369655.html http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiya-hotili-zirvati-vistup-tatar-u-... You can call it Imperial Racism - or just Rusczism.
- trhway 12y ago
  if you know the centuries old history of that region and in particular of relations between Crimean Tatars and the rest of the population there, Russians included - you wouldn't be that surprised. Of course, Russia has a bunch of territories/ethnicities that wish (and have a lot of valid reasons to) they could go free like Estonia, Ukraine, Uzbekistan, ... did. Chechnya would be among the first coming to mind, and if somebody asked me i'd say let them go. Like Eltsin did in 91' - "take as much sovereignty as you can carry away". Well, as you said - Empire. And it is trying to come back. And it isn't a good Empire if there are any. And trying to oppress Russian minority on the border with that Empire - not a smart move by any accounts. Hoping that Western countries would help - not a smart hope as Western countries tend to not like (at least not publicly) oppressions of minorities these days.