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Wait who abandoned Ukraine?

by xnull 12y ago

socceroos 12y ago
Sanctions don't count. When people are dying sanctions don't count.
- xnull 12y ago
  There are nuclear treaties that prevent stationing and mobility of NATO troops and armaments in the Baltic, Ukraine isn't even a member of NATO, and they are getting far more than mere sanctions - intelligence, equipment, financial aid, strategic advice, political and global media support to name a few. NATO can't just abandon nuclear treaties. And trust that, as it controls 90% of the pipeline of oil between Russia and Europe and that because the conflict arose during highly contented offers for Ukraine to join the EU, that NATO is doing everything it can.
- powertower 12y ago
  When Kiev is sending in troops to indiscriminately kill eastern Ukrainians that don't want anything to do with the new regime, while Russia is doing everything it can to stabilize the situation, and the western media is spouting nonsense about Russian aggression, yes, sanctions against Russia don't count. There is a geo-political game going on in Ukraine right now. If you think you are getting an accurate assessment of the situation on CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News, you'd be about as right as you where on Libya, Iraq, and the other dozen or so major conflicts that ended up being nothing but full of lies. It's in US's best interest to see Ukraine fall into a state of constant chaos. It's in Russia best interest to see Ukraine stabilize. From those two points you pretty much can infer who the aggressor is going to be.
e12e 12y ago
No one abandoned Ukraine -- there's still a proxy war brewing there, between NATO and Russia. One might argue that it would be better for Ukraine if it was actually "abandoned". Between Russian "volunteers" and neo-nazis with EU/NATO support, I predict the ones loosing are "most everyone else".
- dctoedt 12y ago
  > neo-nazis with EU/NATO support Apart from Putin and his supporters, who says the Ukrainian government are neo-Nazis, and on what basis?
  - tedks 12y ago
    The parent commenter may not have been talking about the Ukranian government, but of the numerous paramilitary nationalist groups that were instrumental in the protests that destabilized the previous regime. This is not a disputed fact. What's unknown is the degree to which those groups were supported by the EU or NATO, but the CIA has backed worse.
  - Mikeb85 12y ago
    Right Sector and Svoboda both have representation in the new Ukrainian government. Both are right wing, fascist parties, and Right Sector even has paramilitary forces which engaged in attacks on political opponents, for instance the attack in Odessa in which they killed and burned alive dozens of Russian-speaking Ukrainians in the Odessa trade union building... Prior to the 'revolution', Svoboda was denounced by many European nations and the EU. Now they form a fairly significant part of the Ukrainian government, and they were a large part of the 'revolution'...
    - trhway 12y ago
      >Prior to the 'revolution', Svoboda was denounced by many European nations and the EU. yep. EU and US are at very interesting place. In order to fight Russia the EU and US are forced to support new Ukrainian government which performs "anti-terrorist operation" in the East (de-facto amounting to ethnic cleansing of Russians there) by mostly using the volunteer forces built of Right Sector and similar nationalist people. It it a big political skill to talk about freedoms, human rights, democracy (it is ok for Scotland to vote for separation, yet not ok for Crimea or Donetsk) and to not notice the stench coming from Kiev. And this new "lustration" law champined by Svoboda and making its successful way through the Ukranian parliament - setting up committees on "un-Ukranian activities" with people identified by the committees (read Russians and all opposition) banished from all the _elected_ , government, education, military, etc.. positions.

Wait who abandoned Ukraine?

by xnull 12y ago

Wait who abandoned Ukraine?

socceroos 12y ago

Sanctions don't count. When people are dying sanctions don't count.

xnull 12y ago
There are nuclear treaties that prevent stationing and mobility of NATO troops and armaments in the Baltic, Ukraine isn't even a member of NATO, and they are getting far more than mere sanctions - intelligence, equipment, financial aid, strategic advice, political and global media support to name a few. NATO can't just abandon nuclear treaties. And trust that, as it controls 90% of the pipeline of oil between Russia and Europe and that because the conflict arose during highly contented offers for Ukraine to join the EU, that NATO is doing everything it can.
powertower 12y ago
When Kiev is sending in troops to indiscriminately kill eastern Ukrainians that don't want anything to do with the new regime, while Russia is doing everything it can to stabilize the situation, and the western media is spouting nonsense about Russian aggression, yes, sanctions against Russia don't count. There is a geo-political game going on in Ukraine right now. If you think you are getting an accurate assessment of the situation on CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News, you'd be about as right as you where on Libya, Iraq, and the other dozen or so major conflicts that ended up being nothing but full of lies. It's in US's best interest to see Ukraine fall into a state of constant chaos. It's in Russia best interest to see Ukraine stabilize. From those two points you pretty much can infer who the aggressor is going to be.

e12e 12y ago

No one abandoned Ukraine -- there's still a proxy war brewing there, between NATO and Russia. One might argue that it would be better for Ukraine if it was actually "abandoned". Between Russian "volunteers" and neo-nazis with EU/NATO support, I predict the ones loosing are "most everyone else".

dctoedt 12y ago
> neo-nazis with EU/NATO support Apart from Putin and his supporters, who says the Ukrainian government are neo-Nazis, and on what basis?
- tedks 12y ago
  The parent commenter may not have been talking about the Ukranian government, but of the numerous paramilitary nationalist groups that were instrumental in the protests that destabilized the previous regime. This is not a disputed fact. What's unknown is the degree to which those groups were supported by the EU or NATO, but the CIA has backed worse.
- Mikeb85 12y ago
  Right Sector and Svoboda both have representation in the new Ukrainian government. Both are right wing, fascist parties, and Right Sector even has paramilitary forces which engaged in attacks on political opponents, for instance the attack in Odessa in which they killed and burned alive dozens of Russian-speaking Ukrainians in the Odessa trade union building... Prior to the 'revolution', Svoboda was denounced by many European nations and the EU. Now they form a fairly significant part of the Ukrainian government, and they were a large part of the 'revolution'...
  - trhway 12y ago
    >Prior to the 'revolution', Svoboda was denounced by many European nations and the EU. yep. EU and US are at very interesting place. In order to fight Russia the EU and US are forced to support new Ukrainian government which performs "anti-terrorist operation" in the East (de-facto amounting to ethnic cleansing of Russians there) by mostly using the volunteer forces built of Right Sector and similar nationalist people. It it a big political skill to talk about freedoms, human rights, democracy (it is ok for Scotland to vote for separation, yet not ok for Crimea or Donetsk) and to not notice the stench coming from Kiev. And this new "lustration" law champined by Svoboda and making its successful way through the Ukranian parliament - setting up committees on "un-Ukranian activities" with people identified by the committees (read Russians and all opposition) banished from all the _elected_ , government, education, military, etc.. positions.