5 ms·

For Shanghai Jobs, Only ‘Normal Size’ Need Apply

41 points by GabrielF00 12y ago

clamprecht 12y ago
I remember seeing Chinese job postings on Indeed.com that included not only physical measurements for a receptionist position, but also attractiveness requirements. It totally surprised us (we were in the US), but I guess it's a cultural thing? Then I realized that 60 years ago, US job postings probably had the same kinds of requirements.
- redmattred 12y ago
  That's true. http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/wp-content/blogs.dir/36/files/2013/02/1971-Kelly-Girl-ad.jpg http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/wp-content/blogs.dir/36/...
  - freditup 12y ago
    I think you may be misconstruing the purpose of the poster. In my opinion, it's mostly about the low-risk and high-upside potential of using the temporary workers that Kelly Services offered much more than physical qualities.
- jamii 12y ago
  A friend of mine works in PR in Beijing. Makeup and high-heels are mandatory despite the fact that she has never worn either before.
- freditup 12y ago
  US jobs postings still often have those requirements, albeit implicitly. For example: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/abercrombie-discrimination-france_n_3653357.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/abercrombie-discrim...
  - nemothekid 12y ago
    Not entirely sure, but I've heard Abercrombie gets around this be having the job titles of all their floor workers be "models"
    - psychometry 12y ago
      Even if they didn't do that, I'm sure they could successfully argue that for that position, attractiveness is a bona-fide occupational qualification.
- bowlofpetunias 12y ago
  The requirements are still there, they're just not in writing anymore. Receptionists are rarely unattractive people, are they?
redmattred 12y ago
Ugh, don't even know where to begin with all the things wrong here
- w1ntermute 12y ago
  How about with all the Westerners snidely judging Chinese culture through a Western cultural lens?
  - iopq 12y ago
    Being 6'4" actually is a huge advantage for me. I've never failed an in-person interview in my life. I'm surprised it's also cut off at the top.
    - iopq 12y ago
      All I'm saying is this is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against me!
    - Taniwha 12y ago
      I've walked around in Taipei (where people seem particularly short) every so often you see some westerner who's 6'4 or so (do people still measure themselves with 'feet' any more) walking around - a head above everyone else - they do look weird. (I'm a westerner who's considered 'short' in the west and 'tall' there). I'm afraid that in the right context you are a freak :-) but yes height shouldn't be an issue
  - alxp 12y ago
    China’s sexist culture – from the point of view of a Chinese girl http://telcontarrulz.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/chinas-sexist-culture-from-the-point-of-view-of-a-chinese-girl/ http://telcontarrulz.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/chinas-sexist-...
    - jquery 12y ago
      If you're seeking evidence for a conclusion you've already made, you will surely find it.
readerrrr 12y ago
Aren't some jobs legitimately asking for certain traits in their workers? Just as actors and models are in fact sometimes hired by their looks, why is it wrong to ask that when the specifics of the job depend on it. Just to clarify; I'm not trying to defend unreasonable job conditions.
- GeneralMayhem 12y ago
  It's for the civil service. Office jobs. Museum workers. The article lists "women might be afraid of the dark, so we can't hire them for a job that would have night shifts" as a reason. That's wrong.
kjackson2012 12y ago
The same thing happens in all of Asia. In Japan, you have to apply with a picture on your resume, and hiring managers will ask married women if they intend to get pregnant, because they won't hire them. I'm sure it's similar across other countries. My friend, who is white, and his wife who is Japanese moved to Japan and after 9 months came back to the US because the conditions were so bad compared to the US. Not only do they work you to the bone, the pay is incredibly low and you are subject to blatant sexism and racism.
- contingencies 12y ago
  I heard the other day that in Japan the employers routinely pay a percentage of a man's salary direct to his wife such that that portion money remains outside of his control. Maybe someone with a better idea of Japanese society can weigh in with some analysis. Here in China, I don't think the problem's quite as bad as they make out in the article... only in government and some big businesses (eg. probably airline flight attendants).
  - ics 12y ago
    I've never heard of a company paying an employee's wife directly (except after a death), but it is common for married salarymen in Japan to turn over their finances to their spouse. In return they are given kozukai or "pocket money/allowance" as a percentage as a way of curtailing unnecessary expenditures.
    - nsxwolf 12y ago
      My wife does this to me, except I don't get the kozukai.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
  - wodenokoto 12y ago
    Usually the wife cashes the husbands pay check and gives the him an allowance, while she manages the household budget.
GabrielF00 12y ago
I really appreciate the extent to which American laws make it difficult for employers to eliminate candidates based on factors that are irrelevant to the job. In 2012, I considered applying for a fellowship in Israel. The application form required you to say whether you had consulted a mental health professional in the last two years and to list any medications you were currently taking and for what purpose. In the United States, it is completely illegal to put questions like this on a job application form (and for very good reason). You are allowed to ask these types of questions after you've made an offer and even then you have to demonstrate that the person cannot do the job in order to rescind the offer. I asked the organization why they collected this information, and they told me it was for the safety of the participants and that they "couldn't in good conscience" not ask these questions. I didn't apply for the fellowship.
bootload 12y ago
"... Here is more detail on a widespread phenomenon in China dubbed “carrot job ads,” for the notion that each job can be filled by only one, very specific, person, just as each carrot fills just one hole in a garden: ..." Isn't this the way software/hi-tech companies hire in the west?
- bagels 12y ago
  Yes, you have to know how to write software in order to get a job writing software :(
pravda 12y ago
I wish we had this in America, for certain jobs. For example, Police Officers. Male police officers should be required to be at least six feet tall. Don't need no short cops. (Let the downvoting commence!)
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  Why would male police officers have distinct height requirements? To the extent that one might have a reasonable argument that height is a bona fide job qualification for a police officer, why would the minimum acceptable level be different by sex?
  - pravda 12y ago
    I think on average, tall men are better-adjusted then short men. Also, tall men bring more authority. It has to be different by sex because there are not too many six-foot tall women out there! The UK used to have a height requirement for constables: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_Kingdom#Height http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_K...
- PhasmaFelis 12y ago
  Oh dear. You've got a lot to learn about trolling, I'm afraid. Subtle is the key.
DanAndersen 12y ago
A couple years ago, I spent a year as an English teacher in Guangxi Province, China. Hiring on the basis of physical or racial characteristics was very blatant in that area and industry. It's difficult for non-white laowai to get ESL positions, because many training centers choose not to hire those who don't "look like a native English speaker" -- either because the school administrators believe this, or they think it'll drive away parents/customers who think their child isn't getting a "real education" from a "real English-speaking foreigner." It was a new and very uncomfortable feeling to be so blatantly valued (and used in marketing) for being little more than a white-faced billboard by the school/business I was working at.
- withdavidli 12y ago
  Think about any other race trying for ESL jobs in Asia. One of my teachers was very upfront about it and asked me if anyone has ever spoke with me about being asian and trying to teach in Asia. Never ended up doing going. It is marketing, and it's perceived to be much better to know American English than British English. Resume info from other countries are also very different as others have mentioned. Mandatory pictures, age, gender, marital status, children, passport, driver's license, etc are all expected. It's scary to think how easily identities can be stolen.
- marak830 12y ago
  Same as in Japan where im currently working as an english teacher. I see it quite often from management tdiscarding resumes from non-obvious english background people(by how they look).
glurgh 12y ago
There were reports over a decade ago of people successfully challenging such requirements through the legal system http://www.economist.com/node/1011419 http://www.economist.com/node/1011419 is one, there were others but it doesn't seem to have brought about significant change.
yitchelle 12y ago
Not surprise to read this. The Chinese culture is a very racially discriminatory culture. Not only are suitable candidates for jobs selected based upon physical attributes and racial backgrounds, social interactions are also racially based, I am talking simple things like having sharing a table at a crowded eating place. Even within the Chinese, they are separated into Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka etc, each with their own cultural character. Thankfully, the younger generations are starting to change this mindset as the world gets smaller via the internet and fast air travel. However, with hiring practices such as that mentioned in the post, it will may take a couple of generations before we see a significant change.
westiseast 12y ago
I've been trying to think for a while of a comment that explains or even defends this from a cultural perspective but there's nothing. while this probably doesn't reflect public policy or the aspirations of the Chinese people, it's just another of those signs that for all the trains/sports stadiums/airports being built, Chinese society is still sometimes the kid of idiocracy we would associate with the UK a hundred years ago. it's a shame.

41 points by GabrielF00 12y ago

I remember seeing Chinese job postings on Indeed.com that included not only physical measurements for a receptionist position, but also attractiveness requirements. It totally surprised us (we were in the US), but I guess it's a cultural thing? Then I realized that 60 years ago, US job postings probably had the same kinds of requirements.

redmattred 12y ago
That's true. http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/wp-content/blogs.dir/36/files/2013/02/1971-Kelly-Girl-ad.jpg http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/wp-content/blogs.dir/36/...
- freditup 12y ago
  I think you may be misconstruing the purpose of the poster. In my opinion, it's mostly about the low-risk and high-upside potential of using the temporary workers that Kelly Services offered much more than physical qualities.
jamii 12y ago
A friend of mine works in PR in Beijing. Makeup and high-heels are mandatory despite the fact that she has never worn either before.
freditup 12y ago
US jobs postings still often have those requirements, albeit implicitly. For example: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/abercrombie-discrimination-france_n_3653357.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/abercrombie-discrim...
- nemothekid 12y ago
  Not entirely sure, but I've heard Abercrombie gets around this be having the job titles of all their floor workers be "models"
  - psychometry 12y ago
    Even if they didn't do that, I'm sure they could successfully argue that for that position, attractiveness is a bona-fide occupational qualification.
bowlofpetunias 12y ago
The requirements are still there, they're just not in writing anymore. Receptionists are rarely unattractive people, are they?

redmattred 12y ago

Ugh, don't even know where to begin with all the things wrong here

w1ntermute 12y ago
How about with all the Westerners snidely judging Chinese culture through a Western cultural lens?
- iopq 12y ago
  Being 6'4" actually is a huge advantage for me. I've never failed an in-person interview in my life. I'm surprised it's also cut off at the top.
  - iopq 12y ago
    All I'm saying is this is the worst kind of discrimination. The kind against me!
  - Taniwha 12y ago
    I've walked around in Taipei (where people seem particularly short) every so often you see some westerner who's 6'4 or so (do people still measure themselves with 'feet' any more) walking around - a head above everyone else - they do look weird. (I'm a westerner who's considered 'short' in the west and 'tall' there). I'm afraid that in the right context you are a freak :-) but yes height shouldn't be an issue
- alxp 12y ago
  China’s sexist culture – from the point of view of a Chinese girl http://telcontarrulz.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/chinas-sexist-culture-from-the-point-of-view-of-a-chinese-girl/ http://telcontarrulz.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/chinas-sexist-...
  - jquery 12y ago
    If you're seeking evidence for a conclusion you've already made, you will surely find it.

readerrrr 12y ago

Aren't some jobs legitimately asking for certain traits in their workers? Just as actors and models are in fact sometimes hired by their looks, why is it wrong to ask that when the specifics of the job depend on it. Just to clarify; I'm not trying to defend unreasonable job conditions.

GeneralMayhem 12y ago
It's for the civil service. Office jobs. Museum workers. The article lists "women might be afraid of the dark, so we can't hire them for a job that would have night shifts" as a reason. That's wrong.

kjackson2012 12y ago

The same thing happens in all of Asia. In Japan, you have to apply with a picture on your resume, and hiring managers will ask married women if they intend to get pregnant, because they won't hire them. I'm sure it's similar across other countries. My friend, who is white, and his wife who is Japanese moved to Japan and after 9 months came back to the US because the conditions were so bad compared to the US. Not only do they work you to the bone, the pay is incredibly low and you are subject to blatant sexism and racism.

contingencies 12y ago
I heard the other day that in Japan the employers routinely pay a percentage of a man's salary direct to his wife such that that portion money remains outside of his control. Maybe someone with a better idea of Japanese society can weigh in with some analysis. Here in China, I don't think the problem's quite as bad as they make out in the article... only in government and some big businesses (eg. probably airline flight attendants).
- ics 12y ago
  I've never heard of a company paying an employee's wife directly (except after a death), but it is common for married salarymen in Japan to turn over their finances to their spouse. In return they are given kozukai or "pocket money/allowance" as a percentage as a way of curtailing unnecessary expenditures.
  - nsxwolf 12y ago
    My wife does this to me, except I don't get the kozukai.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- wodenokoto 12y ago
  Usually the wife cashes the husbands pay check and gives the him an allowance, while she manages the household budget.

GabrielF00 12y ago

I really appreciate the extent to which American laws make it difficult for employers to eliminate candidates based on factors that are irrelevant to the job. In 2012, I considered applying for a fellowship in Israel. The application form required you to say whether you had consulted a mental health professional in the last two years and to list any medications you were currently taking and for what purpose. In the United States, it is completely illegal to put questions like this on a job application form (and for very good reason). You are allowed to ask these types of questions after you've made an offer and even then you have to demonstrate that the person cannot do the job in order to rescind the offer. I asked the organization why they collected this information, and they told me it was for the safety of the participants and that they "couldn't in good conscience" not ask these questions. I didn't apply for the fellowship.

bootload 12y ago

"... Here is more detail on a widespread phenomenon in China dubbed “carrot job ads,” for the notion that each job can be filled by only one, very specific, person, just as each carrot fills just one hole in a garden: ..." Isn't this the way software/hi-tech companies hire in the west?

bagels 12y ago
Yes, you have to know how to write software in order to get a job writing software :(

pravda 12y ago

I wish we had this in America, for certain jobs. For example, Police Officers. Male police officers should be required to be at least six feet tall. Don't need no short cops. (Let the downvoting commence!)

dragonwriter 12y ago
Why would male police officers have distinct height requirements? To the extent that one might have a reasonable argument that height is a bona fide job qualification for a police officer, why would the minimum acceptable level be different by sex?
- pravda 12y ago
  I think on average, tall men are better-adjusted then short men. Also, tall men bring more authority. It has to be different by sex because there are not too many six-foot tall women out there! The UK used to have a height requirement for constables: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_Kingdom#Height http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_K...
PhasmaFelis 12y ago
Oh dear. You've got a lot to learn about trolling, I'm afraid. Subtle is the key.

DanAndersen 12y ago

A couple years ago, I spent a year as an English teacher in Guangxi Province, China. Hiring on the basis of physical or racial characteristics was very blatant in that area and industry. It's difficult for non-white laowai to get ESL positions, because many training centers choose not to hire those who don't "look like a native English speaker" -- either because the school administrators believe this, or they think it'll drive away parents/customers who think their child isn't getting a "real education" from a "real English-speaking foreigner." It was a new and very uncomfortable feeling to be so blatantly valued (and used in marketing) for being little more than a white-faced billboard by the school/business I was working at.

withdavidli 12y ago
Think about any other race trying for ESL jobs in Asia. One of my teachers was very upfront about it and asked me if anyone has ever spoke with me about being asian and trying to teach in Asia. Never ended up doing going. It is marketing, and it's perceived to be much better to know American English than British English. Resume info from other countries are also very different as others have mentioned. Mandatory pictures, age, gender, marital status, children, passport, driver's license, etc are all expected. It's scary to think how easily identities can be stolen.
marak830 12y ago
Same as in Japan where im currently working as an english teacher. I see it quite often from management tdiscarding resumes from non-obvious english background people(by how they look).

glurgh 12y ago

There were reports over a decade ago of people successfully challenging such requirements through the legal system http://www.economist.com/node/1011419 http://www.economist.com/node/1011419 is one, there were others but it doesn't seem to have brought about significant change.

yitchelle 12y ago

Not surprise to read this. The Chinese culture is a very racially discriminatory culture. Not only are suitable candidates for jobs selected based upon physical attributes and racial backgrounds, social interactions are also racially based, I am talking simple things like having sharing a table at a crowded eating place. Even within the Chinese, they are separated into Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka etc, each with their own cultural character. Thankfully, the younger generations are starting to change this mindset as the world gets smaller via the internet and fast air travel. However, with hiring practices such as that mentioned in the post, it will may take a couple of generations before we see a significant change.

westiseast 12y ago

I've been trying to think for a while of a comment that explains or even defends this from a cultural perspective but there's nothing. while this probably doesn't reflect public policy or the aspirations of the Chinese people, it's just another of those signs that for all the trains/sports stadiums/airports being built, Chinese society is still sometimes the kid of idiocracy we would associate with the UK a hundred years ago. it's a shame.