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@3:12: "There are much easier ways of getting rich." Could I get some examples? Thank you!

by smuss77 12y ago

hawkice 12y ago
Get a job programming. 10-year average pay gap is about 33%, which is not an insubstantial amount closer to "rich".
tdicola 12y ago
Marry into a rich family.
lukasm 12y ago
steal, inherit or create value.
robomartin 12y ago
Waiting for that very answer here: www.ProjectAmericanDream.com
blobbers 12y ago
This could be helpful to you for purposes of comparison: https://www.wealthfront.com/tools/startup-salary-equity-compensation https://www.wealthfront.com/tools/startup-salary-equity-comp...
foobarqux 12y ago
Go into finance?
petersouth 12y ago
I had a few of those moments where I found something really interesting and wanted to hear more detail, but then the subject just changed.
TimPC 12y ago
So here is a simple idea. If you're going to work 80h/week anyway and you're a talented coder: source one contract job billing hourly in London and another in SF. Working out of EST you work 5AM-9PM on a 10-6 in both places -- Billing $80/hr with a good corporate setup and working 4000 hours/year you can get 320,000/year, if you have EU citizenship (potentially from one of the return countries) and US citizenship you can probably setup a decent double irish and keep about 280,000+ of that in offshore money. If you want the money in the US and are clever about it you can keep over 250,000 of that money. I suggest London and SF because the 8h timezone difference and high cost of living in both cities. But to give you an idea this is basically $2.5M after-tax locked in the time it takes to make a 10 year exit. That's 1/4 of the first example and way more than 25% of start-ups fail. Admittedly $2.5M isn't the kind of resources that lets you go after solving the biggest problems in the world, but it's pretty solid by developer standards. 1.8X is a good return for a venture capital fund and they have more favourable stock than employees or founders, so you have to think the average start-up return for founders, even enormously talented ones is far worse than that. Edit corrected typo in time worked.
- e12e 12y ago
  While I agree with the idea that working like crazy is likely to net more than a failed startup, a couple of comments: > If you're going to work 80h/week anyway and you're a talented coder: source one contract job billing hourly in London and another in SF. Working out of EST you work 5AM-9PM on a 10-6 in both places -- Billing $80/hr with a good corporate setup and working 4000 hours/year you can get 320,000/year I seriously doubt most people can produce 40 billable, quality architecture/programming hours a week, let alone 80 -- especially over a long period of time. Anyway 80/hour is way low for quality work as a consultant; 100 usd/hour should be a minimum. Target a more manageable 2300 hours a year (6 day work week or 5 long days) and invoice 230 000/year. > if you have EU citizenship (potentially from one of the return countries) and US citizenship you can probably setup a decent double irish and keep about 280,000+ of that in offshore money. Yeah, stealing (or tax evasion) is an easy way to get rich. If you want to break the law, you might want to look into smuggling or credit card fraud/skimming as well...
  - TimPC 12y ago
    For a second issue, there is a certain perception that start-up founders can produce far more than 40 hours/week of quality architecture and programming. Founding a company involves believing in that at some level. I agree it's not in the category of most people, but neither is start-up founder. If you have a serious belief in your ability to do so, try working like crazy on 3 month contracts and see if you actually can. Over 3 months you're unlikely to burn out completely, and you can adjust your expectations of the kind of hours you're capable of accordingly.
    - e12e 12y ago
      Perhaps. But working 4000 hours a year, and producing 4000 billable hours a year, aren't the same thing. There's lots of "fluff" that goes into running a business. Sure, if you can show me someone that are able to produce quality code for 4000 hours a year, that'd be great. But sounds like the EA death marches to me. On the other hand those games, bugs and all, do rack in a tidy profit. So maybe I'm wrong, and you can throw shit at people for a year, and still have them come back for more shitty code the next year?
stevewilhelm 12y ago
Get a reasonably paying technical job at large firm and switch jobs every two or three years. Invest most of your disposable income: some in real estate, some in a broad equity fund, and some in a handful of technology stocks in fields you know something about. For the majority of people who go this route instead of starting their own company, they will be better off economically in ten years time.
patio11 12y ago
Get a job at AmaGooBookSoft. Execute competently, getting the standard bonus and equity packages. Continue for 10 years. Congrats, you're a millionaire. [This was even easier for folks who joined Google / Facebook between the times when they were clearly unstoppable juggernauts and when they IPOed.] Start a boutique consultancy with a buddy. Hire up until you get to ~8 employees. Continue for 10 years. Congrats, you're a millionaire. Everyone knows the management consulting / investment banking career path, right? Congrats, you're a millionaire. Go to med school. Specialize in whatever the high-demand fields are, like e.g. anesthesiology. Execute competently for 10 years. Congrats, you're a millionaire.
- martinwnet 12y ago
  Really? 10 years at one of these companies (AmaGooBookSoft) and you're a millionaire?
  - jasonkester 12y ago
    Yes. Within the first four years, a million dollars will have flowed through your bank account. By 10 years, somebody with a rudimentary ability to save money and a disinclination to purchase sailboats or lease BMWs should have a million dollar net worth after taxes. It's a really good time to in history to know how to program computers.
    - martinwnet 12y ago
      So you're indicating a $250k salary, is that realistic?
      - jasonkester 12y ago
        Again, yes. You can choose not to believe that, but it's not in your best interest to do so. The market really is this good.
        martinwnet 12y ago

@3:12: "There are much easier ways of getting rich." Could I get some examples? Thank you!

by smuss77 12y ago

@3:12: "There are much easier ways of getting rich." Could I get some examples? Thank you!

hawkice 12y ago

Get a job programming. 10-year average pay gap is about 33%, which is not an insubstantial amount closer to "rich".

tdicola 12y ago

Marry into a rich family.

lukasm 12y ago

steal, inherit or create value.

robomartin 12y ago

Waiting for that very answer here: www.ProjectAmericanDream.com

blobbers 12y ago

This could be helpful to you for purposes of comparison: https://www.wealthfront.com/tools/startup-salary-equity-compensation https://www.wealthfront.com/tools/startup-salary-equity-comp...

foobarqux 12y ago

Go into finance?

petersouth 12y ago

I had a few of those moments where I found something really interesting and wanted to hear more detail, but then the subject just changed.

TimPC 12y ago

So here is a simple idea. If you're going to work 80h/week anyway and you're a talented coder: source one contract job billing hourly in London and another in SF. Working out of EST you work 5AM-9PM on a 10-6 in both places -- Billing $80/hr with a good corporate setup and working 4000 hours/year you can get 320,000/year, if you have EU citizenship (potentially from one of the return countries) and US citizenship you can probably setup a decent double irish and keep about 280,000+ of that in offshore money. If you want the money in the US and are clever about it you can keep over 250,000 of that money. I suggest London and SF because the 8h timezone difference and high cost of living in both cities. But to give you an idea this is basically $2.5M after-tax locked in the time it takes to make a 10 year exit. That's 1/4 of the first example and way more than 25% of start-ups fail. Admittedly $2.5M isn't the kind of resources that lets you go after solving the biggest problems in the world, but it's pretty solid by developer standards. 1.8X is a good return for a venture capital fund and they have more favourable stock than employees or founders, so you have to think the average start-up return for founders, even enormously talented ones is far worse than that. Edit corrected typo in time worked.

e12e 12y ago
While I agree with the idea that working like crazy is likely to net more than a failed startup, a couple of comments: > If you're going to work 80h/week anyway and you're a talented coder: source one contract job billing hourly in London and another in SF. Working out of EST you work 5AM-9PM on a 10-6 in both places -- Billing $80/hr with a good corporate setup and working 4000 hours/year you can get 320,000/year I seriously doubt most people can produce 40 billable, quality architecture/programming hours a week, let alone 80 -- especially over a long period of time. Anyway 80/hour is way low for quality work as a consultant; 100 usd/hour should be a minimum. Target a more manageable 2300 hours a year (6 day work week or 5 long days) and invoice 230 000/year. > if you have EU citizenship (potentially from one of the return countries) and US citizenship you can probably setup a decent double irish and keep about 280,000+ of that in offshore money. Yeah, stealing (or tax evasion) is an easy way to get rich. If you want to break the law, you might want to look into smuggling or credit card fraud/skimming as well...
- TimPC 12y ago
  For a second issue, there is a certain perception that start-up founders can produce far more than 40 hours/week of quality architecture and programming. Founding a company involves believing in that at some level. I agree it's not in the category of most people, but neither is start-up founder. If you have a serious belief in your ability to do so, try working like crazy on 3 month contracts and see if you actually can. Over 3 months you're unlikely to burn out completely, and you can adjust your expectations of the kind of hours you're capable of accordingly.
  - e12e 12y ago
    Perhaps. But working 4000 hours a year, and producing 4000 billable hours a year, aren't the same thing. There's lots of "fluff" that goes into running a business. Sure, if you can show me someone that are able to produce quality code for 4000 hours a year, that'd be great. But sounds like the EA death marches to me. On the other hand those games, bugs and all, do rack in a tidy profit. So maybe I'm wrong, and you can throw shit at people for a year, and still have them come back for more shitty code the next year?

stevewilhelm 12y ago

Get a reasonably paying technical job at large firm and switch jobs every two or three years. Invest most of your disposable income: some in real estate, some in a broad equity fund, and some in a handful of technology stocks in fields you know something about. For the majority of people who go this route instead of starting their own company, they will be better off economically in ten years time.

patio11 12y ago

Get a job at AmaGooBookSoft. Execute competently, getting the standard bonus and equity packages. Continue for 10 years. Congrats, you're a millionaire. [This was even easier for folks who joined Google / Facebook between the times when they were clearly unstoppable juggernauts and when they IPOed.] Start a boutique consultancy with a buddy. Hire up until you get to ~8 employees. Continue for 10 years. Congrats, you're a millionaire. Everyone knows the management consulting / investment banking career path, right? Congrats, you're a millionaire. Go to med school. Specialize in whatever the high-demand fields are, like e.g. anesthesiology. Execute competently for 10 years. Congrats, you're a millionaire.

martinwnet 12y ago
Really? 10 years at one of these companies (AmaGooBookSoft) and you're a millionaire?
- jasonkester 12y ago
  Yes. Within the first four years, a million dollars will have flowed through your bank account. By 10 years, somebody with a rudimentary ability to save money and a disinclination to purchase sailboats or lease BMWs should have a million dollar net worth after taxes. It's a really good time to in history to know how to program computers.
  - martinwnet 12y ago
    So you're indicating a $250k salary, is that realistic?
    - jasonkester 12y ago
      Again, yes. You can choose not to believe that, but it's not in your best interest to do so. The market really is this good.
      - martinwnet 12y ago