9 ms·

Switch default desktop to Gnome

91 points by dfc 12y ago

ealexhudson 12y ago
"(I will not be answering media enquiries related to this commit.)" - take note, Sam Varghese It's a shame that such a commit is so obviously political (in terms of how it will be taken, not why it was done). I think this is technically the right call, but I doubt much of the argument will be on technicals.
Touche 12y ago
I think this is the right choice if only because Gnome is the only choice that handles HiDPI well.
- adamors 12y ago
  Doesn't KDE?
  - jeorgun 12y ago
    Not really. It sort of side-steps the issue by having extremely configurable icon, font, window, etc. sizes, but it has no real, OSX-style high-DPI support like GNOME does.
    - _ZeD_ 12y ago
      You mean ... it has a better HiDPI support than that OSX-style configuration GNOME does.
      - jeorgun 12y ago
        More configurable, but certainly not better. It's a major pain to set up, since everything (fonts, titlebars, desktop panels, icons in various contexts, scrollbars, cursors, GTK equivalents to the above) has to be set independently, and many things still aren't capable of automatically scaling at all, like checkboxes, anything using KWebView (like konqueror or khelpcenter) or Aurora themes. Some parts of (say) Amarok's interfaces completely glitch out when scaled past a certain point. For this particular subject, my money's definitely on the "just works" solution.
      - marcosdumay 12y ago
        Nah... It just sidesteps the issue by solving the actual problem.
    - Crito 12y ago
      That sounds plainly better. Being pixel agnostic by allowing everything to scale as the user pleases will allow a broader range of users to configure their system as they prefer it. (Last I checked, OSX on retina devices couldn't even use the actual resolution of the screen without third party extensions... A problem I don't have in Linux with a high-dpi screen).
- toll 12y ago
  Cinnamon seems to handle HiDPI well.
  - fmoralesc 12y ago
    It uses the same technologies GNOME does.
    - adestefan 12y ago
      Because it is GNOME with just a replaced shell.
- worklogin 12y ago
  http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2014/03/hi-dpi-support-for-cinnamon/ http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2014/03/hi-dpi-support-for-cin... This is from March.
  - wlesieutre 12y ago
    Is it really only integer scaling? Bit of a bummer if so. I'd have hoped they'd design arbitrary scales into this or it'll be stuck behind Windows and OS X for potentially a long time (until someone fixes it and all of the 3rd party software is updated to work right at other scales). I run my Windows computer at 1.5 scale, which gives me sharp but readable text and a whole ton of screen real estate. Who wants to buy an expensive 28" 4K screen and either choose between huge interface with 1080p effective resolution or an unusably tiny interface at native 4K?
    - JoshTriplett 12y ago
      Scaling of arbitrary widgets is integer scale, but you can scale fonts by arbitrary factors.
      - wlesieutre 12y ago
        Is "arbitrary widgets" everything that isn't text, including the overall layout of a window? That sounds a lot like Windows' "Change only the text size" option, which has been around for a long time and isn't a good substitute for UI scale. Size of all of the mouse targets is as big a deal as the text; they need a middle ground between "impossible to hit" and "gigantic waste of space". I'd just been getting in to Linux (via the LF course on edX) and have it dual booting on my old laptop, but all of my newer computers have higher res screens that fit best at fractional upscaling from the "standard" size of old UIs. Guess I'll keep working on it because I'm enjoying the CLI and playing around with a web server, but I'm now a lot less excited about the prospects of Linux as a Windows / OS X replacement. Year of the Linux desktop...
        JoshTriplett 12y ago
- philsnow 12y ago
  hidpi support doesn't matter so much if you don't have any window chrome or widgets to speak of. minimalism has always served me well in window manager choice. I hope with systemd it doesn't / didn't become harder to use a "brand X" window manager.
  - gtaylor 12y ago
    > hidpi support doesn't matter so much if you don't have any window chrome or widgets to speak of. But if you do, it stinks. Gnome isn't my favorite DE, but it's probably a safer default for a very general-purpose distro. You can always switch to XFCE if you care.
  - comex 12y ago
    Since "desktop environment" includes some core applications each comes with, it's not just about the window manager's chrome.
  - fmoralesc 12y ago
    What does systemd have to do with wms? (desktop managers, yes, but wms, no) There will be more issues with the move towards wayland. Just yesterday I read openbox development had stalled, so it is doubtful it will survive unless someone takes over. OTOH, there are not many tiling window managers with wayland support yet.
    - philsnow 12y ago
      I recall having to run gnome-settings-daemon even if I wasnt running the rest of gnome to fix some absurd issue or other. I can see systemd easily "leaking" dependencies up the stack, making my life as a "fringe"/non-gnome user harder. The people working on it don't seem to have any aversion at all to scope creep. In fact, the politics of it all make it seem like a "land grab" and they'd in fact be happy if systemd takes over more and more responsibilities.
      - fmoralesc 12y ago
        > I recall having to run gnome-settings-daemon even if I wasnt running the rest of gnome to fix some absurd issue or other. Sure, that is the typical cost of using a patched up desktop environment instead of a full DE. A wm is just a wm.
samuell 12y ago
That's interesting. I have been planning switch to Debian/XFCE on next computer / upgrade, from Xubuntu, so I do hope that XFCE will at least keep in good shape on Debian. But as default, I can not tell what would be best, other than that Gnome 3 indeed seems to have improved lots lately. Tried the Gnome "classic desktop" version of it recently, and found that I could definitely stand it, although XFCE feels a little better to me. One upside over XFCE is that Gnome 3 looks a lot better by default than XFCE. XFCE is easier to configure, and so can be made to look even better, but default looks has some significance too, as it means less modifications needed for those who just want to install and get stuff done.
- macco 12y ago
  I tried Gnome 3 too lately, and I am kind of thrilled by the experience. The whole desktop is very thoughfully crafted. The creators really care about the user experience.
  - alex_duf 12y ago
    Yes, they managed to keep it dead simple (which is a very hard task). Some people don't like it, but I personally love the lack of noise.
JacobEdelman 12y ago
I am happy to see this as since Gnome 3 came out distros only seem to have been leaving Gnome.
jwildeboer 12y ago
Cue "Red Hat conspiracy!" And "Lennart kills Linux and my kittens"
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  Debian has preferred GNOME for a long time, so this is nothing surprising. Cue straw man is what I'd say.
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    Depending on what forums you follow, yeah, this is the sentiment. GNOME has a reputation (deserved or not is up for debate) for the same kind of "we'll do it our way and go fork it if you don't like it" attitude that people (including Linus) take systemd to task for. Example: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695371 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695371
sciurus 12y ago
XFCE's next release is 18 months overdue, and afaict it won't be ready anytime soon. In contrast, GNOME has a regular 6-month release cadence and their next one should be out tomorrow. https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointThirteen https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointThirteen
- bsg75 12y ago
  Does Gnome get more backing from companies like RedHat, where XFCE is all / mostly volunteer?
  - sciurus 12y ago
    I think that's the case. From http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2010/07/28/gnome-census/ http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2010/07/28/gnome-census/ - "While over 70% of GNOME developers identify themselves as volunteers, over 70% of the commits to the GNOME releases are made by paid contributors Red Hat are the biggest contributor to the GNOME project and its core dependencies. Red Hat employees have made almost 17% of all commits we measured, and 11 of the top 20 GNOME committers of all time are current or past Red Hat employees. Novell and Collabora are also on the podium."
derengel 12y ago
I'm not a KDE user, but from reading on the internetz I have this feeling that KDE in general is evaded by users, users don't see it as much of a option or as the last option, this commit also doesn't mention KDE. Some say the problem with KDE is that you have to drink the whole koolaid, but not sure if that is really the reason.
- pjmlp 12y ago
  KDE suffered in the beginning by being the C++ developers desktop, using a library with a license that many in the FOSS world didn't agree with. This was sorted out eventually, but the distributions that had KDE as main desktop (Mandrake, SuSE,...) are mostly gone.
  - zanny 12y ago
    OpenSUSE still exists. It is a pretty beast KDE desktop. There is a lot of effort around Netrunner / Manjaro / Chakra to make some good KDE desktop based on Arch, but that has never come to fruition mostly in my mind due to NIH and no pooled effort. And Kubuntu is still solid and stable. If I were pushing Linux in an office environment, 14.04 LTS Kubuntu would almost certainly be my pick for its stability.
    - pjmlp 12y ago
      OpenSUSE has lost its place among many GNU/Linux fans since their agreement with Microsoft. In Germany, once the home of SuSE, nowadays you get to see very few installations.
- xiaomai 12y ago
  KDE doesn't do a ton of stuff that many (most?) people care about like handle add/removing displays frequently. Accessibility is pretty good in GNOME (but not in KDE) which makes it a better default option too. Also most of the desktop plumbing (freedesktop.org stuff) seems to start in GNOME and works better there.
  - 12y ago
linguafranca 12y ago
Am I the only one who is frustrated by the plethora of desktop environments available for Linux? Why not just have just a single, highly extensible desktop environment instead? Is there any sane reason for having so many[1] mainstream DEs? [1]: Gnome, KDE, XFDE, LXDE, are the ones I know off the top of my head
- tom9729 12y ago
  Problem is that not everyone agrees on what that means, or if that is a good thing. Gnome is getting less and less extensible, while KDE is almost too extensible. LXDE is focused on low resource usage, and I'm not sure what XFCE's goal is. There is also the toolkit schism (GTK vs Qt) to take into account.
- andmarios 12y ago
  So why don't you create the SHE DE (single, highly extensible desktop environment)? Then we will have KDE, GNOME, XFCE, LXDE, SHEDE, etc. :)
- danford 12y ago
  Horrible idea. If you tried to unify them you would have one bloated piece of crap or a desktop 90% of people hate. I like having the choice between a few good DEs. What I don't understand is why Apple or Microsoft have yet to create a DE that is really better than something from the open source community. Sure each desktop is better at somethings than others, but it's hard to say that the ones that are being developed for proprietary OS's are objectively better than their open source counter-parts. You would think putting all your eggs in one basket would allow you to create a "super OS". Guess not.
- zanny 12y ago
  Gnome is practically only usable through extensions. If you want an example of Gnome 3 done right, look at Zorin - which is a Gnome reskin designed to emulate modern Windows. Likewise, KDE is highly modular and configurable - you can develop whatever widgets you want and drop them in wherever you want. That is how they now have a mobile and desktop variant of Plasma. And the configuration means you can do everything from featureless software rendered uncomposited desktop to exploding windows and spinning cubes in OpenGL. The thing is highly extensible means more space use, and LXDE / XFCE in part originate in a desire for smaller footprint installs. They also use less memory on average, albeit the usage of Gnome / KDE and them is minute relative to modern memory footprints (XFCE might use 100MB, KDE sans semantic desktop search might use 200).
adambatkin 12y ago
I really don't understand how any serious developer can use Gnome 3. I have tried for the past couple of months to use the out-of-the-box Gnome setup under Fedora (with the Adwaita theme) and the whole experience was maddening. I've finally switched back to KDE (which I haven't used for almost 5 years) and if this doesn't work out I'll go back to XFCE (which is what I used in-between). Some problems include: * Focused and unfocused windows look almost identical * Expected features like tray icons, virtual desktops, alt+drag to move/resize windows, even alt+tab don't work out-of-the-box * Window focus seems completely broken * Eclipse looks terrible (and I spend much of my time there) - I'm told "no, that's an SWT issue", but it looks great under KDE * IntelliJ's menus don't track the moue properly - again, probably a Java issue, but still works great under KDE * Having to "drag" the screensaver thing away is annoying * gkrellm seems to make all of my window focus issues even worse I know most of the issues can be blamed on application/third-party framework bugs, but the fact is that I just want to get my work done and KDE/XFCE both work great. Go look at some of the Gnome source code comments and Bugzillas and you will see the very opinionated "do it my way" thinking that the Gnome developers have. In some cases, it's almost hostile. If I wanted a desktop that valued form over function, I'd use a Mac.
- ayrx 12y ago
  I consider myself a serious developer and I'm perfectly happy with Gnome 3. It's clean, simple and allows me to focus on what's really important -- my editor and terminal. Having your own opinions is fine but please do not generalize.
  - adambatkin 12y ago
    Out of curiosity, what theme do you use? I really wanted to be happy with Gnome 3, but the focus issues (strange stacking order issues, sometimes closing dialogs would leave no window with focus, launching certain apps with global hotkeys wouldn't bring them to the front) made it impossible for me to keep track of what I was trying to do. I'm curious if maybe there's something about my setup that's different than everyone else (because I know there are plenty of people who are happy with it) or if maybe I'm more keyboard oriented or something.
scythe 12y ago
Luckily enough, I just installed Debian with Xfce on my laptop next night... I suppose you might call this a close call. However, their Xfce support is, good, but lacking polish. The panel tools are comprehensive but the selector is hard to use; you just wish the automatic setup made sense. The default programs include such gems as quodlibet and xterm. Apparently Xfce isn't portable enough for Debian? Nonetheless, it's fast, tearing is minimal, wallpaper changing mostly just works (IceWeasel can't xdg-wallpaper or whatever), and it's nice to have a working Firefo-err, IceWeasel. The blue-grey default theme is still one of the most depressing default desktop looks I've ever seen and it hasn't changed in five years. So, like, 7/10.

91 points by dfc 12y ago

"(I will not be answering media enquiries related to this commit.)" - take note, Sam Varghese It's a shame that such a commit is so obviously political (in terms of how it will be taken, not why it was done). I think this is technically the right call, but I doubt much of the argument will be on technicals.

Touche 12y ago

I think this is the right choice if only because Gnome is the only choice that handles HiDPI well.

adamors 12y ago
Doesn't KDE?
- jeorgun 12y ago
  Not really. It sort of side-steps the issue by having extremely configurable icon, font, window, etc. sizes, but it has no real, OSX-style high-DPI support like GNOME does.
  - _ZeD_ 12y ago
    You mean ... it has a better HiDPI support than that OSX-style configuration GNOME does.
    - jeorgun 12y ago
      More configurable, but certainly not better. It's a major pain to set up, since everything (fonts, titlebars, desktop panels, icons in various contexts, scrollbars, cursors, GTK equivalents to the above) has to be set independently, and many things still aren't capable of automatically scaling at all, like checkboxes, anything using KWebView (like konqueror or khelpcenter) or Aurora themes. Some parts of (say) Amarok's interfaces completely glitch out when scaled past a certain point. For this particular subject, my money's definitely on the "just works" solution.
    - marcosdumay 12y ago
      Nah... It just sidesteps the issue by solving the actual problem.
  - Crito 12y ago
    That sounds plainly better. Being pixel agnostic by allowing everything to scale as the user pleases will allow a broader range of users to configure their system as they prefer it. (Last I checked, OSX on retina devices couldn't even use the actual resolution of the screen without third party extensions... A problem I don't have in Linux with a high-dpi screen).
toll 12y ago
Cinnamon seems to handle HiDPI well.
- fmoralesc 12y ago
  It uses the same technologies GNOME does.
  - adestefan 12y ago
    Because it is GNOME with just a replaced shell.
worklogin 12y ago
http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2014/03/hi-dpi-support-for-cinnamon/ http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2014/03/hi-dpi-support-for-cin... This is from March.
- wlesieutre 12y ago
  Is it really only integer scaling? Bit of a bummer if so. I'd have hoped they'd design arbitrary scales into this or it'll be stuck behind Windows and OS X for potentially a long time (until someone fixes it and all of the 3rd party software is updated to work right at other scales). I run my Windows computer at 1.5 scale, which gives me sharp but readable text and a whole ton of screen real estate. Who wants to buy an expensive 28" 4K screen and either choose between huge interface with 1080p effective resolution or an unusably tiny interface at native 4K?
  - JoshTriplett 12y ago
    Scaling of arbitrary widgets is integer scale, but you can scale fonts by arbitrary factors.
    - wlesieutre 12y ago
      Is "arbitrary widgets" everything that isn't text, including the overall layout of a window? That sounds a lot like Windows' "Change only the text size" option, which has been around for a long time and isn't a good substitute for UI scale. Size of all of the mouse targets is as big a deal as the text; they need a middle ground between "impossible to hit" and "gigantic waste of space". I'd just been getting in to Linux (via the LF course on edX) and have it dual booting on my old laptop, but all of my newer computers have higher res screens that fit best at fractional upscaling from the "standard" size of old UIs. Guess I'll keep working on it because I'm enjoying the CLI and playing around with a web server, but I'm now a lot less excited about the prospects of Linux as a Windows / OS X replacement. Year of the Linux desktop...
      - JoshTriplett 12y ago
philsnow 12y ago
hidpi support doesn't matter so much if you don't have any window chrome or widgets to speak of. minimalism has always served me well in window manager choice. I hope with systemd it doesn't / didn't become harder to use a "brand X" window manager.
- gtaylor 12y ago
  > hidpi support doesn't matter so much if you don't have any window chrome or widgets to speak of. But if you do, it stinks. Gnome isn't my favorite DE, but it's probably a safer default for a very general-purpose distro. You can always switch to XFCE if you care.
- comex 12y ago
  Since "desktop environment" includes some core applications each comes with, it's not just about the window manager's chrome.
- fmoralesc 12y ago
  What does systemd have to do with wms? (desktop managers, yes, but wms, no) There will be more issues with the move towards wayland. Just yesterday I read openbox development had stalled, so it is doubtful it will survive unless someone takes over. OTOH, there are not many tiling window managers with wayland support yet.
  - philsnow 12y ago
    I recall having to run gnome-settings-daemon even if I wasnt running the rest of gnome to fix some absurd issue or other. I can see systemd easily "leaking" dependencies up the stack, making my life as a "fringe"/non-gnome user harder. The people working on it don't seem to have any aversion at all to scope creep. In fact, the politics of it all make it seem like a "land grab" and they'd in fact be happy if systemd takes over more and more responsibilities.
    - fmoralesc 12y ago
      > I recall having to run gnome-settings-daemon even if I wasnt running the rest of gnome to fix some absurd issue or other. Sure, that is the typical cost of using a patched up desktop environment instead of a full DE. A wm is just a wm.

samuell 12y ago

That's interesting. I have been planning switch to Debian/XFCE on next computer / upgrade, from Xubuntu, so I do hope that XFCE will at least keep in good shape on Debian. But as default, I can not tell what would be best, other than that Gnome 3 indeed seems to have improved lots lately. Tried the Gnome "classic desktop" version of it recently, and found that I could definitely stand it, although XFCE feels a little better to me. One upside over XFCE is that Gnome 3 looks a lot better by default than XFCE. XFCE is easier to configure, and so can be made to look even better, but default looks has some significance too, as it means less modifications needed for those who just want to install and get stuff done.

macco 12y ago
I tried Gnome 3 too lately, and I am kind of thrilled by the experience. The whole desktop is very thoughfully crafted. The creators really care about the user experience.
- alex_duf 12y ago
  Yes, they managed to keep it dead simple (which is a very hard task). Some people don't like it, but I personally love the lack of noise.

JacobEdelman 12y ago

I am happy to see this as since Gnome 3 came out distros only seem to have been leaving Gnome.

jwildeboer 12y ago

Cue "Red Hat conspiracy!" And "Lennart kills Linux and my kittens"

vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Debian has preferred GNOME for a long time, so this is nothing surprising. Cue straw man is what I'd say.
- Karunamon 12y ago
  Depending on what forums you follow, yeah, this is the sentiment. GNOME has a reputation (deserved or not is up for debate) for the same kind of "we'll do it our way and go fork it if you don't like it" attitude that people (including Linus) take systemd to task for. Example: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695371 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=695371

sciurus 12y ago

XFCE's next release is 18 months overdue, and afaict it won't be ready anytime soon. In contrast, GNOME has a regular 6-month release cadence and their next one should be out tomorrow. https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointThirteen https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointThirteen

bsg75 12y ago
Does Gnome get more backing from companies like RedHat, where XFCE is all / mostly volunteer?
- sciurus 12y ago
  I think that's the case. From http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2010/07/28/gnome-census/ http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2010/07/28/gnome-census/ - "While over 70% of GNOME developers identify themselves as volunteers, over 70% of the commits to the GNOME releases are made by paid contributors Red Hat are the biggest contributor to the GNOME project and its core dependencies. Red Hat employees have made almost 17% of all commits we measured, and 11 of the top 20 GNOME committers of all time are current or past Red Hat employees. Novell and Collabora are also on the podium."

derengel 12y ago

I'm not a KDE user, but from reading on the internetz I have this feeling that KDE in general is evaded by users, users don't see it as much of a option or as the last option, this commit also doesn't mention KDE. Some say the problem with KDE is that you have to drink the whole koolaid, but not sure if that is really the reason.

pjmlp 12y ago
KDE suffered in the beginning by being the C++ developers desktop, using a library with a license that many in the FOSS world didn't agree with. This was sorted out eventually, but the distributions that had KDE as main desktop (Mandrake, SuSE,...) are mostly gone.
- zanny 12y ago
  OpenSUSE still exists. It is a pretty beast KDE desktop. There is a lot of effort around Netrunner / Manjaro / Chakra to make some good KDE desktop based on Arch, but that has never come to fruition mostly in my mind due to NIH and no pooled effort. And Kubuntu is still solid and stable. If I were pushing Linux in an office environment, 14.04 LTS Kubuntu would almost certainly be my pick for its stability.
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    OpenSUSE has lost its place among many GNU/Linux fans since their agreement with Microsoft. In Germany, once the home of SuSE, nowadays you get to see very few installations.
xiaomai 12y ago
KDE doesn't do a ton of stuff that many (most?) people care about like handle add/removing displays frequently. Accessibility is pretty good in GNOME (but not in KDE) which makes it a better default option too. Also most of the desktop plumbing (freedesktop.org stuff) seems to start in GNOME and works better there.
- 12y ago

linguafranca 12y ago

Am I the only one who is frustrated by the plethora of desktop environments available for Linux? Why not just have just a single, highly extensible desktop environment instead? Is there any sane reason for having so many[1] mainstream DEs? [1]: Gnome, KDE, XFDE, LXDE, are the ones I know off the top of my head

tom9729 12y ago
Problem is that not everyone agrees on what that means, or if that is a good thing. Gnome is getting less and less extensible, while KDE is almost too extensible. LXDE is focused on low resource usage, and I'm not sure what XFCE's goal is. There is also the toolkit schism (GTK vs Qt) to take into account.
andmarios 12y ago
So why don't you create the SHE DE (single, highly extensible desktop environment)? Then we will have KDE, GNOME, XFCE, LXDE, SHEDE, etc. :)
danford 12y ago
Horrible idea. If you tried to unify them you would have one bloated piece of crap or a desktop 90% of people hate. I like having the choice between a few good DEs. What I don't understand is why Apple or Microsoft have yet to create a DE that is really better than something from the open source community. Sure each desktop is better at somethings than others, but it's hard to say that the ones that are being developed for proprietary OS's are objectively better than their open source counter-parts. You would think putting all your eggs in one basket would allow you to create a "super OS". Guess not.
zanny 12y ago
Gnome is practically only usable through extensions. If you want an example of Gnome 3 done right, look at Zorin - which is a Gnome reskin designed to emulate modern Windows. Likewise, KDE is highly modular and configurable - you can develop whatever widgets you want and drop them in wherever you want. That is how they now have a mobile and desktop variant of Plasma. And the configuration means you can do everything from featureless software rendered uncomposited desktop to exploding windows and spinning cubes in OpenGL. The thing is highly extensible means more space use, and LXDE / XFCE in part originate in a desire for smaller footprint installs. They also use less memory on average, albeit the usage of Gnome / KDE and them is minute relative to modern memory footprints (XFCE might use 100MB, KDE sans semantic desktop search might use 200).

adambatkin 12y ago

I really don't understand how any serious developer can use Gnome 3. I have tried for the past couple of months to use the out-of-the-box Gnome setup under Fedora (with the Adwaita theme) and the whole experience was maddening. I've finally switched back to KDE (which I haven't used for almost 5 years) and if this doesn't work out I'll go back to XFCE (which is what I used in-between). Some problems include: * Focused and unfocused windows look almost identical * Expected features like tray icons, virtual desktops, alt+drag to move/resize windows, even alt+tab don't work out-of-the-box * Window focus seems completely broken * Eclipse looks terrible (and I spend much of my time there) - I'm told "no, that's an SWT issue", but it looks great under KDE * IntelliJ's menus don't track the moue properly - again, probably a Java issue, but still works great under KDE * Having to "drag" the screensaver thing away is annoying * gkrellm seems to make all of my window focus issues even worse I know most of the issues can be blamed on application/third-party framework bugs, but the fact is that I just want to get my work done and KDE/XFCE both work great. Go look at some of the Gnome source code comments and Bugzillas and you will see the very opinionated "do it my way" thinking that the Gnome developers have. In some cases, it's almost hostile. If I wanted a desktop that valued form over function, I'd use a Mac.

ayrx 12y ago
I consider myself a serious developer and I'm perfectly happy with Gnome 3. It's clean, simple and allows me to focus on what's really important -- my editor and terminal. Having your own opinions is fine but please do not generalize.
- adambatkin 12y ago
  Out of curiosity, what theme do you use? I really wanted to be happy with Gnome 3, but the focus issues (strange stacking order issues, sometimes closing dialogs would leave no window with focus, launching certain apps with global hotkeys wouldn't bring them to the front) made it impossible for me to keep track of what I was trying to do. I'm curious if maybe there's something about my setup that's different than everyone else (because I know there are plenty of people who are happy with it) or if maybe I'm more keyboard oriented or something.

scythe 12y ago

Luckily enough, I just installed Debian with Xfce on my laptop next night... I suppose you might call this a close call. However, their Xfce support is, good, but lacking polish. The panel tools are comprehensive but the selector is hard to use; you just wish the automatic setup made sense. The default programs include such gems as quodlibet and xterm. Apparently Xfce isn't portable enough for Debian? Nonetheless, it's fast, tearing is minimal, wallpaper changing mostly just works (IceWeasel can't xdg-wallpaper or whatever), and it's nice to have a working Firefo-err, IceWeasel. The blue-grey default theme is still one of the most depressing default desktop looks I've ever seen and it hasn't changed in five years. So, like, 7/10.