4 ms·

You're conflating 'social' with 'moral'. Everything you mentioned is morally questionable, not socially harmful.

by m52go 12y ago

atmosx 12y ago
Geez we all enjoy the benefits of the 2008 financial crisis. Society was never happier.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- spindritf 12y ago
  The 2008 financial crisis was not brought on by people avoiding taxes. I don't think any crisis can be caused this way because the US government can easily borrow money when it needs and clamp down on tax avoidance or raise taxes later.
- m52go 12y ago
  That was almost entirely caused by an institution known as the BANK. Banks and hedge funds are totally different things. Likening one to the other is like saying Google and Square are both evil just because they're technology companies. You seem to lack a fundamental understanding of the financial system.
  - atmosx 12y ago
    Oh really? So in your dictionary AIG is a bank, like say BoA. You seem like having a deep understanding of the financial system. Don't forget to edit the wikipedia page, these guys got it all wrong[2] oh yes the WSJ[1] too! [1] http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB123734123180365061 http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB123734123180365061 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_International_Group#Liquidity_crisis_and_government_bailout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_International_Group#Li...
    - m52go 12y ago
      There were many types of institutions involved in the 2008 crash, from traditional banks to investment banks to ratings agencies to insurance firms to mortgage brokers to governmental bodies and more. The root cause of the crash was unquestionably the banks. It was the banks that lowered their standards, made bad loans, and packaged them up into MBSs and CLOs to ship them off to other institutions to trade and insure so they could make more bad loans. If the banks didn't make these loans, AIG would have had nothing to insure. Goldman would have nothing to trade. S&P would have nothing to rate. Et cetera. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying as vindicating everyone else. They all royally messed up too. It's just that the banks started and perpetuated it all.
bksenior 12y ago
No, you are conflating 'social' with 'legal.'
- m52go 12y ago
  I should have said moral AND legal. Those companies' actions are morally wrong and legally wrong. Social good is totally different. Are you assuming money paid in taxes is socially good?
simonster 12y ago
Most moral wrongs are also social wrongs. Laws and regulations exist for the good of society, and flouting those laws is bad for the public good. If you pay less in taxes than you ought to, that means that the average citizen either pays more in taxes or doesn't get the social services those taxes would have paid for. Insider trading means that the insiders profit at the expense of the outsiders, who are typically far more numerous.
- m52go 12y ago
  > If you pay less in taxes than you ought to, that means that the average citizen either pays more in taxes or doesn't get the social services those taxes would have paid for. No, it means SOMEONE is paying more. That someone could be a rich person, another company, or a smorgasbord of other taxpayers. You can't assume it's Joe the Plumber who's paying more taxes (on average, because proportionally, corporations and rich people pay most taxes). Also, don't assume those taxes would have paid for social services. They could have also been used to kill innocent women and children in unspeakably nasty ways (on average, most of the budget does NOT actually go to social services). The vast majority of trading is done by institutions, so here again, your assumption that Joe the Plumber gets hurt by the big bad hedge funds doing insider trading is faulty. Yes, 401(k)s might get hit, but it's not your average E*TRADE daytrader who's losing out (again, on average, based on trading volume). Anyway, in the name of morality, it's irrelevant to speculate WHO pays for your wrongdoing and for WHAT your taxes would have been used. The action is immoral and illegal. To say it's socially wrong is a big stretch. There are way too many unknowns to make a definitive statement.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]

You're conflating 'social' with 'moral'. Everything you mentioned is morally questionable, not socially harmful.

by m52go 12y ago

You're conflating 'social' with 'moral'. Everything you mentioned is morally questionable, not socially harmful.

atmosx 12y ago

Geez we all enjoy the benefits of the 2008 financial crisis. Society was never happier.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
spindritf 12y ago
The 2008 financial crisis was not brought on by people avoiding taxes. I don't think any crisis can be caused this way because the US government can easily borrow money when it needs and clamp down on tax avoidance or raise taxes later.
m52go 12y ago
That was almost entirely caused by an institution known as the BANK. Banks and hedge funds are totally different things. Likening one to the other is like saying Google and Square are both evil just because they're technology companies. You seem to lack a fundamental understanding of the financial system.
- atmosx 12y ago
  Oh really? So in your dictionary AIG is a bank, like say BoA. You seem like having a deep understanding of the financial system. Don't forget to edit the wikipedia page, these guys got it all wrong[2] oh yes the WSJ[1] too! [1] http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB123734123180365061 http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB123734123180365061 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_International_Group#Liquidity_crisis_and_government_bailout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_International_Group#Li...
  - m52go 12y ago
    There were many types of institutions involved in the 2008 crash, from traditional banks to investment banks to ratings agencies to insurance firms to mortgage brokers to governmental bodies and more. The root cause of the crash was unquestionably the banks. It was the banks that lowered their standards, made bad loans, and packaged them up into MBSs and CLOs to ship them off to other institutions to trade and insure so they could make more bad loans. If the banks didn't make these loans, AIG would have had nothing to insure. Goldman would have nothing to trade. S&P would have nothing to rate. Et cetera. Don't misconstrue what I'm saying as vindicating everyone else. They all royally messed up too. It's just that the banks started and perpetuated it all.

bksenior 12y ago

No, you are conflating 'social' with 'legal.'

m52go 12y ago
I should have said moral AND legal. Those companies' actions are morally wrong and legally wrong. Social good is totally different. Are you assuming money paid in taxes is socially good?

simonster 12y ago

Most moral wrongs are also social wrongs. Laws and regulations exist for the good of society, and flouting those laws is bad for the public good. If you pay less in taxes than you ought to, that means that the average citizen either pays more in taxes or doesn't get the social services those taxes would have paid for. Insider trading means that the insiders profit at the expense of the outsiders, who are typically far more numerous.

m52go 12y ago
> If you pay less in taxes than you ought to, that means that the average citizen either pays more in taxes or doesn't get the social services those taxes would have paid for. No, it means SOMEONE is paying more. That someone could be a rich person, another company, or a smorgasbord of other taxpayers. You can't assume it's Joe the Plumber who's paying more taxes (on average, because proportionally, corporations and rich people pay most taxes). Also, don't assume those taxes would have paid for social services. They could have also been used to kill innocent women and children in unspeakably nasty ways (on average, most of the budget does NOT actually go to social services). The vast majority of trading is done by institutions, so here again, your assumption that Joe the Plumber gets hurt by the big bad hedge funds doing insider trading is faulty. Yes, 401(k)s might get hit, but it's not your average E*TRADE daytrader who's losing out (again, on average, based on trading volume). Anyway, in the name of morality, it's irrelevant to speculate WHO pays for your wrongdoing and for WHAT your taxes would have been used. The action is immoral and illegal. To say it's socially wrong is a big stretch. There are way too many unknowns to make a definitive statement.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]