14 ms·

Faced with change, an all-female indie dev team evolves to a higher form (2013)

223 points by hnal943 12y ago

melling 12y ago
I believe this team was interviewed on Debug. http://www.imore.com/debug-44-brianna-wu-amanda-warner-and-revolution-60 http://www.imore.com/debug-44-brianna-wu-amanda-warner-and-r...
mutagen 12y ago
I'm glad I read this despite the link title, which is appropriately based on the article's sub-title (The title, "Choose Your Character", is even less descriptive). The article hits on some of the startup and indie gamedev work-life balance issues that affect everyone and some unique to women.
- sp332 12y ago
  The magazine is called The Magazine. Maybe being undescriptive is part of their brand :p
robertfw 12y ago
Here is the game in question: http://www.revolution60.com/ http://www.revolution60.com/ The feedback in the article was spot on. The characters look decidedly anorexic.
- sp332 12y ago
  Don't worry, they're video game characters. I'm sure they're fine! /s More seriously, this is an art style and not a body image problem. Disliking an art style is completely valid, but attributing medical conditions is a non-sequitur.
  - quux 12y ago
    I think there were also some technical reasons for the character design, or at least the costume design. When the team was interviewed on Debug they said they had to make a choice to keep the polygon count low: Non skintight costumes? or more realistic hair? They went with hair :)
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- onli 12y ago
  No they don't. The characters are curvy while being absolutely slim, it's a body type that in the real world does not really exist. Anorexic doesn't make those curves.
- Roboprog 12y ago
  Male characters in games often look similar, though sometimes more ripped. Not too many non-NPCs with pot bellies on the male side in most games :-) Who wants to see out of shape middle-aged game characters? Somebody else mentioned practical concerns about rendering...
metafex 12y ago
It's silly how much goes into correctness in games nowadays. You'd have to make an Asteroids clone just not to offend anybody (except sentient asteroids...). Just make your game fun, challenging or whatever your goal is and have fun making it. And of course you can put in interesting looking characters, it's called art :) Also, to the politics topic: Oh I hate that so much, it only takes one person to mess up whole teams and the worst thing is if it's one of your superiors. It's horrible when you can't do anything but change your job (been there, done that). edit: to the downvoters, please read the whole thing and my response down there, if you still disagree, no hard feelings :) edit 2: From the article, one of the points I was referring to "“Why are they all white?” sneered a liberal friend of mine before launching into a 20-minute screed about how offended he was by the naked shower scene in Heavy Rain."
- jkscm 12y ago
  Can you explain to what extend it is "silly" to make an effort to avoid sexism or racism?
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    It's silly to worry about it in the context of a fictional medium. Arguments have been made that, say, for instance, the human trafficking ring in Watch Dogs (recent video game) shouldn't have ever existed because it's overtly sexist, despite the fact that you break it up at the end of the mission arc. (To which I say: That's what human trafficking is. Sexist? Ya think?! People are being sold into slavery and you focus on sexism?) Such arguments ring as hollow as the railing against violence in video games. Saying what kind of artwork people should and shouldn't make transcends all *isms into straight-up repressiveness.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - lewispollard 12y ago
      If we're talking serious /art/, I think the distinction is really, is this potentially offensive thing making a point that betters the perceived meaning of the game, or is it there because of lazy writing and tropes? In all art forms, it's the former that's generally granted high status.
dgreensp 12y ago
I’m certain that if I had children, I would be failing at my job. I’ve hit my 30s, a period when it seems as if all of my friends suddenly have kids. That’s a priority shift completely incompatible with my goals. Startups require that you give it all or go home, routinely requiring long nights, longer weekends, and blood and toil. If you aren’t willing to put in the hours, eager replacements are standing behind you. If I fail, the women I work with will be out of their jobs. It's this fearful attitude, lurking in the minds of bosses and employees, that is the problem facing women in the workplace who want to have children, more than anything else. (For example, I put it at the root of poor leave policies.) It's called sexism when it comes from a man, but here (from a female boss) it's clear it's just culture (American culture?). I just had my first kid, and my wife had to go back to work at six weeks. I'm a software engineer, and she's a medical device rep in trauma. Unlike me, she can't work from home, she carries a pager, and she can't choose her work hours or reduce them. She wasn't itching to go back to work either; she loved being at home with the new baby. However, you do what you have to do. Some new moms do quit their jobs, especially if they weren't making much more than they'd save on childcare by staying at home, or if it was a crappy work environment or an unfulfilling role anyway. However, for many, it's not an option not to work, and being a software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig that I would wish on moms everywhere. If you're afraid for yourself or someone else of having kids, go out and talk to some power moms.
- mqsiuser 12y ago
  > software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig it can be > that I would wish on moms everywhere. I don't know any mom "hacking it" as their dayjob and honestly I am not sure if I'd whish them to (coding can be very demanding)
  - eru 12y ago
    >> software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig > it can be If it's not, you are either doing something wrong in the current climate, or you are more ambitious by choice. Pulling six figure salaries is laughably easy, if you are willing to move.
  - 12y ago
jbrooksuk 12y ago
Wow! It's lovely to see Brianna doing well, I interviewed her back in 2012 - http://james-brooks.uk/interview-with-brianna-wu/ http://james-brooks.uk/interview-with-brianna-wu/ :)
- kefej89 12y ago
  this is not place to promote yourself. Go back to tumblr.
  - eru 12y ago
    Done in good taste, we are OK with self promotion on HN.
  - rmc 12y ago
    There is a whole section of HN (Show HN) devoted to showing off what you've done.
Paul-ish 12y ago
How has the game and her indie studio fared today?
- xsmasher 12y ago
  3.5 stars on TouchArcade http://toucharcade.com/2014/08/04/revolution-60-review/ http://toucharcade.com/2014/08/04/revolution-60-review/ 4.5 on the iOS app store (222 reviews) https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/revolution-60/id742869081?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/revolution-60/id742869081?mt...
- EC1 12y ago
  mediocre at best http://www.revolution60.com/ http://www.revolution60.com/
mikeleeorg 12y ago
I'm pleasantly surprised the comments here aren't overly caustic. And I really liked this article. As an entrepreneur who has structured my life around my family (i.e. work from home, flexible hours), I can empathize with Brianna and Amanda's points of views. The entrepreneur in me is obsessed with development and deadlines and shipping. The father in me is obsessed with spending time with my daughter. There are times when both are at odds, and while I like to say I always make the right decision, I don't. It's a tough struggle. And it's a struggle I am very conscious of, because I have competitors who don't have or want to deal with similar constraints. But honestly, I often think these constraints make me a better entrepreneur than I used to be, because I am forced to be strict about my priorities and time. If something is a waste of time, I don't give it a second glance and move on to something else (HN notwithstanding, ahem).
hrktb 12y ago
A bit OT, but I think it's refreshing to have a character like her in the tech seen, vocal and taking the spotlight in a lot of places. At first I was thrown off by the very douchy looking attitude, it felt too much like overcompensating. And I'd hate to work in her company for so many reasons, the burning startup mindset being the main one. But this article, as her Debug interview or the Isometricshow podcast also show other facets that are pretty fair, balanced and well thought. The podcast particulary brings hilarious and soul crushing moments alternatively, I'd recommand to anyone wanting to hear something a bit different.
wmeredith 12y ago
Regardless of subject matter, hot damn this person can write. I hope she's putting some of that spark into her games. That was riveting.
- r00fus 12y ago
  "I’m an ENTJ, and she’s an INTJ. Small difference; all the difference in the world." Brevity is the soul of wit, indeed.
  - astrange 12y ago
    Though anyone who is actually planning to use Myers-Briggs tests for their HR should note that the test is entirely nonsense, on the level of "which Naruto character are you". Most people score in the middle of each two letters, with some variation depending on what mood you're in, and it then gives an answer at the extreme end. Then the explanation for every answer just tells you how cool and special you are, so nobody complains.
incision 12y ago
I'd liken worries about staying productive while raising children to worries about being able to run a marathon. You're probably safely certain you couldn't do it tomorrow, but that says little about your ability to do it 9 months from now and nothing about what the next person is capable off. Ask around and you'll find supremely productive people who do both.
up_and_up 12y ago
> I’m certain that if I had children, I would be failing at my job. Quality not quantity. I work as an engineer for an NYC startup and have 3 kids. No, its not easy, but yes you need to reset your priorities. Life becomes more focused on fewer activities. Once the kids get a bit bigger its not as time intensive. I work roughly 6:30am - 8:30am and then 10am - 5pm M-F. I have many other friends who are engineers at fast moving companies with 2,3,4 or more kids. Its definitely doable. If your company is asking you to work hours and hours maybe there is something wrong with their product development process or business plan. Stop worrying and start procreating!
- grayclhn 12y ago
  Are you the CEO/founder? It sounded like the author is, and I think that would make it a lot harder.
spopejoy 12y ago
It's completely hilarious that this article would bring the anti-PC haters out of their cave. There is absolutely nothing in this article about PC, it breaks the script in numerous ways: - referring to her employees as "girls" instead of women - her conflicts about her employee's pregnancy - fretting over the attention to female-image issues in games, wondering if "the only way to win this game is not to have women at all" I guess as long as a tech writer dares to use the female first person, HN will be deluged with comments from "gahh I HATE politics" know-nothings plus their more anti-social brethren. It's even curious there would be such focus on the boss being childless, this is so not the point of the article. I would probably criticize her cheezy i'm-so-rad-on-my-red-motorbike aesthetic before even thinking about gender stuff. If there's a bright side to all the defensiveness, it suggests that the recent focus on gender is working. Much like the Anita Hill hearings brought out all sorts of ugliness out on the way to sensible anti-harassment policies, we're witnessing the next evolution.
- foobarbecue 12y ago
  The motorbike part was where I stopped reading.
- qq66 12y ago
  When I first started reading this comment I thought you were using the phrase "anti-PC haters" to mean console gamers.
foobarbecue 12y ago
By "aspirational" I suppose she meant "inspirational"? (As for the article itself, I only made it through a few paragraphs. I assume it was going to be about sexism and reproductive discrimination in the workplace, which I think is a serious problem. Part of this problem is solved in Sweden, where a couple can split maternity / paternity leave any way they like.)
kefej89 12y ago
can't believe all SJW are filtering Hacker News also. Was #GamersGate not enough ? There is nothing like all female devs or something like that? Answer one honest question to me. If you have child and it turns out boy would you consider oppressing him because he is boy ? and give preference to girls ? Many SV faggots are already high on feminine dose so please fuck off from this site and leave something for enjoyment and good discussion. Whosoever this Brianna is.. if she is so real why is she ashamed of her Chinese name ? Why don't she write ho-hang-fo something like that ? Also, please keep adorable stories of your wife to yourself. She is fucking you and not us so we dont care. Anyone sharing un-necessary sympathy can you go themselves. PeAc3
- wmt 12y ago
  Are you sure you're on the right forum? The kind of hateful comments your every comment appears to be are not needed here.
DarkIye 12y ago
This article is really long and has no easily discernable point. Can someone highlight it?

223 points by hnal943 12y ago

I believe this team was interviewed on Debug. http://www.imore.com/debug-44-brianna-wu-amanda-warner-and-revolution-60 http://www.imore.com/debug-44-brianna-wu-amanda-warner-and-r...

mutagen 12y ago

I'm glad I read this despite the link title, which is appropriately based on the article's sub-title (The title, "Choose Your Character", is even less descriptive). The article hits on some of the startup and indie gamedev work-life balance issues that affect everyone and some unique to women.

sp332 12y ago
The magazine is called The Magazine. Maybe being undescriptive is part of their brand :p

robertfw 12y ago

Here is the game in question: http://www.revolution60.com/ http://www.revolution60.com/ The feedback in the article was spot on. The characters look decidedly anorexic.

sp332 12y ago
Don't worry, they're video game characters. I'm sure they're fine! /s More seriously, this is an art style and not a body image problem. Disliking an art style is completely valid, but attributing medical conditions is a non-sequitur.
- quux 12y ago
  I think there were also some technical reasons for the character design, or at least the costume design. When the team was interviewed on Debug they said they had to make a choice to keep the polygon count low: Non skintight costumes? or more realistic hair? They went with hair :)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
onli 12y ago
No they don't. The characters are curvy while being absolutely slim, it's a body type that in the real world does not really exist. Anorexic doesn't make those curves.
Roboprog 12y ago
Male characters in games often look similar, though sometimes more ripped. Not too many non-NPCs with pot bellies on the male side in most games :-) Who wants to see out of shape middle-aged game characters? Somebody else mentioned practical concerns about rendering...

metafex 12y ago

It's silly how much goes into correctness in games nowadays. You'd have to make an Asteroids clone just not to offend anybody (except sentient asteroids...). Just make your game fun, challenging or whatever your goal is and have fun making it. And of course you can put in interesting looking characters, it's called art :) Also, to the politics topic: Oh I hate that so much, it only takes one person to mess up whole teams and the worst thing is if it's one of your superiors. It's horrible when you can't do anything but change your job (been there, done that). edit: to the downvoters, please read the whole thing and my response down there, if you still disagree, no hard feelings :) edit 2: From the article, one of the points I was referring to "“Why are they all white?” sneered a liberal friend of mine before launching into a 20-minute screed about how offended he was by the naked shower scene in Heavy Rain."

jkscm 12y ago
Can you explain to what extend it is "silly" to make an effort to avoid sexism or racism?
- Karunamon 12y ago
  It's silly to worry about it in the context of a fictional medium. Arguments have been made that, say, for instance, the human trafficking ring in Watch Dogs (recent video game) shouldn't have ever existed because it's overtly sexist, despite the fact that you break it up at the end of the mission arc. (To which I say: That's what human trafficking is. Sexist? Ya think?! People are being sold into slavery and you focus on sexism?) Such arguments ring as hollow as the railing against violence in video games. Saying what kind of artwork people should and shouldn't make transcends all *isms into straight-up repressiveness.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - lewispollard 12y ago
    If we're talking serious /art/, I think the distinction is really, is this potentially offensive thing making a point that betters the perceived meaning of the game, or is it there because of lazy writing and tropes? In all art forms, it's the former that's generally granted high status.

dgreensp 12y ago

I’m certain that if I had children, I would be failing at my job. I’ve hit my 30s, a period when it seems as if all of my friends suddenly have kids. That’s a priority shift completely incompatible with my goals. Startups require that you give it all or go home, routinely requiring long nights, longer weekends, and blood and toil. If you aren’t willing to put in the hours, eager replacements are standing behind you. If I fail, the women I work with will be out of their jobs. It's this fearful attitude, lurking in the minds of bosses and employees, that is the problem facing women in the workplace who want to have children, more than anything else. (For example, I put it at the root of poor leave policies.) It's called sexism when it comes from a man, but here (from a female boss) it's clear it's just culture (American culture?). I just had my first kid, and my wife had to go back to work at six weeks. I'm a software engineer, and she's a medical device rep in trauma. Unlike me, she can't work from home, she carries a pager, and she can't choose her work hours or reduce them. She wasn't itching to go back to work either; she loved being at home with the new baby. However, you do what you have to do. Some new moms do quit their jobs, especially if they weren't making much more than they'd save on childcare by staying at home, or if it was a crappy work environment or an unfulfilling role anyway. However, for many, it's not an option not to work, and being a software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig that I would wish on moms everywhere. If you're afraid for yourself or someone else of having kids, go out and talk to some power moms.

mqsiuser 12y ago
> software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig it can be > that I would wish on moms everywhere. I don't know any mom "hacking it" as their dayjob and honestly I am not sure if I'd whish them to (coding can be very demanding)
- eru 12y ago
  >> software developer is actually a pretty cushy gig > it can be If it's not, you are either doing something wrong in the current climate, or you are more ambitious by choice. Pulling six figure salaries is laughably easy, if you are willing to move.
- 12y ago

jbrooksuk 12y ago

Wow! It's lovely to see Brianna doing well, I interviewed her back in 2012 - http://james-brooks.uk/interview-with-brianna-wu/ http://james-brooks.uk/interview-with-brianna-wu/ :)

kefej89 12y ago
this is not place to promote yourself. Go back to tumblr.
- eru 12y ago
  Done in good taste, we are OK with self promotion on HN.
- rmc 12y ago
  There is a whole section of HN (Show HN) devoted to showing off what you've done.

Paul-ish 12y ago

How has the game and her indie studio fared today?

xsmasher 12y ago
3.5 stars on TouchArcade http://toucharcade.com/2014/08/04/revolution-60-review/ http://toucharcade.com/2014/08/04/revolution-60-review/ 4.5 on the iOS app store (222 reviews) https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/revolution-60/id742869081?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/revolution-60/id742869081?mt...
EC1 12y ago
mediocre at best http://www.revolution60.com/ http://www.revolution60.com/

mikeleeorg 12y ago

I'm pleasantly surprised the comments here aren't overly caustic. And I really liked this article. As an entrepreneur who has structured my life around my family (i.e. work from home, flexible hours), I can empathize with Brianna and Amanda's points of views. The entrepreneur in me is obsessed with development and deadlines and shipping. The father in me is obsessed with spending time with my daughter. There are times when both are at odds, and while I like to say I always make the right decision, I don't. It's a tough struggle. And it's a struggle I am very conscious of, because I have competitors who don't have or want to deal with similar constraints. But honestly, I often think these constraints make me a better entrepreneur than I used to be, because I am forced to be strict about my priorities and time. If something is a waste of time, I don't give it a second glance and move on to something else (HN notwithstanding, ahem).

hrktb 12y ago

A bit OT, but I think it's refreshing to have a character like her in the tech seen, vocal and taking the spotlight in a lot of places. At first I was thrown off by the very douchy looking attitude, it felt too much like overcompensating. And I'd hate to work in her company for so many reasons, the burning startup mindset being the main one. But this article, as her Debug interview or the Isometricshow podcast also show other facets that are pretty fair, balanced and well thought. The podcast particulary brings hilarious and soul crushing moments alternatively, I'd recommand to anyone wanting to hear something a bit different.

wmeredith 12y ago

Regardless of subject matter, hot damn this person can write. I hope she's putting some of that spark into her games. That was riveting.

r00fus 12y ago
"I’m an ENTJ, and she’s an INTJ. Small difference; all the difference in the world." Brevity is the soul of wit, indeed.
- astrange 12y ago
  Though anyone who is actually planning to use Myers-Briggs tests for their HR should note that the test is entirely nonsense, on the level of "which Naruto character are you". Most people score in the middle of each two letters, with some variation depending on what mood you're in, and it then gives an answer at the extreme end. Then the explanation for every answer just tells you how cool and special you are, so nobody complains.

incision 12y ago

I'd liken worries about staying productive while raising children to worries about being able to run a marathon. You're probably safely certain you couldn't do it tomorrow, but that says little about your ability to do it 9 months from now and nothing about what the next person is capable off. Ask around and you'll find supremely productive people who do both.

up_and_up 12y ago

> I’m certain that if I had children, I would be failing at my job. Quality not quantity. I work as an engineer for an NYC startup and have 3 kids. No, its not easy, but yes you need to reset your priorities. Life becomes more focused on fewer activities. Once the kids get a bit bigger its not as time intensive. I work roughly 6:30am - 8:30am and then 10am - 5pm M-F. I have many other friends who are engineers at fast moving companies with 2,3,4 or more kids. Its definitely doable. If your company is asking you to work hours and hours maybe there is something wrong with their product development process or business plan. Stop worrying and start procreating!

grayclhn 12y ago
Are you the CEO/founder? It sounded like the author is, and I think that would make it a lot harder.

spopejoy 12y ago

It's completely hilarious that this article would bring the anti-PC haters out of their cave. There is absolutely nothing in this article about PC, it breaks the script in numerous ways: - referring to her employees as "girls" instead of women - her conflicts about her employee's pregnancy - fretting over the attention to female-image issues in games, wondering if "the only way to win this game is not to have women at all" I guess as long as a tech writer dares to use the female first person, HN will be deluged with comments from "gahh I HATE politics" know-nothings plus their more anti-social brethren. It's even curious there would be such focus on the boss being childless, this is so not the point of the article. I would probably criticize her cheezy i'm-so-rad-on-my-red-motorbike aesthetic before even thinking about gender stuff. If there's a bright side to all the defensiveness, it suggests that the recent focus on gender is working. Much like the Anita Hill hearings brought out all sorts of ugliness out on the way to sensible anti-harassment policies, we're witnessing the next evolution.

foobarbecue 12y ago
The motorbike part was where I stopped reading.
qq66 12y ago
When I first started reading this comment I thought you were using the phrase "anti-PC haters" to mean console gamers.

foobarbecue 12y ago

By "aspirational" I suppose she meant "inspirational"? (As for the article itself, I only made it through a few paragraphs. I assume it was going to be about sexism and reproductive discrimination in the workplace, which I think is a serious problem. Part of this problem is solved in Sweden, where a couple can split maternity / paternity leave any way they like.)

kefej89 12y ago

can't believe all SJW are filtering Hacker News also. Was #GamersGate not enough ? There is nothing like all female devs or something like that? Answer one honest question to me. If you have child and it turns out boy would you consider oppressing him because he is boy ? and give preference to girls ? Many SV faggots are already high on feminine dose so please fuck off from this site and leave something for enjoyment and good discussion. Whosoever this Brianna is.. if she is so real why is she ashamed of her Chinese name ? Why don't she write ho-hang-fo something like that ? Also, please keep adorable stories of your wife to yourself. She is fucking you and not us so we dont care. Anyone sharing un-necessary sympathy can you go themselves. PeAc3

wmt 12y ago
Are you sure you're on the right forum? The kind of hateful comments your every comment appears to be are not needed here.

DarkIye 12y ago

This article is really long and has no easily discernable point. Can someone highlight it?