4 ms·

I find it amusing that people are being outraged at Apple, instead of being outraged at their government. From outside the US, it looks like it became generally

by jwr 12y ago

I find it amusing that people are being outraged at Apple, instead of being outraged at their government. From outside the US, it looks like it became generally accepted that the NSA will spy on US citizens all it wants, unchecked, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Instead, all the rage is getting directed at companies that disclose the information to NSA.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
Drakim 12y ago
Often it seems like the people want businesses to take up the fight for privacy, rather than the people themselves.
- enneff 12y ago
  And why not? Businesses, through lobbying, essentially control the US government. It's not unreasonable that American citizens might feel more empowered voting with their dollars than with ballot papers.
  - happyscrappy 12y ago
    People don't care about privacy or they wouldn't be using Android.
  - ilobby 12y ago
    Excellent point. So do it. iLobby.co
  - ilobby 12y ago
    It was about three $3.2 billion last year in 2013 from the federally registered lobbyists. The state level is probably equal to that. Some think the real numbers are closer to $9 billion at the federal level because PR and consulting don't have to be filed with the Senate clerk. https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/ https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/
- seanhandley 12y ago
  Explain to me how businesses aren't people ?
  - freehunter 12y ago
    Business are made of people, but a business is not a person in and of itself. That's why we have the saying "design by committee", because a group of people doing something will not lead to the same result of one person doing something.
mkal_tsr 12y ago
Is this directed at me? I'm not outraged at Apple at all, I think they're trying to play the long game here. I'm just sick of the word games, deception, and legalese from anyone regarding privacy. It's hard enough fully understanding exactly how all the pieces fit together (technology, laws, politics, etc.) for people that are genuinely interested in this, let alone the average consumer. Pointing out loopholes in wording helps to start conversations about what is/isn't happening as well as what could happen/be-abused.
- jwr 12y ago
  Well, I think whatever Apple says, you will find a "loophole" in the wording that supposedly allows them to do evil things. Try it: pretend you are Apple and just try writing a statement that you would consider acceptable and that you wouldn't call "word games, deception and legalese". Myself, I think they did fairly well, certainly the best of any tech company out there today.
  - mkal_tsr 12y ago
    > Try it: pretend you are Apple and just try writing a statement that you would consider acceptable and that you wouldn't call "word games, deception and legalese". Ok. "We're enabling custom encryption key management. You may now generate and use your own encryption keys. In addition to ensuring the device data is encrypted, nothing in your iCloud account can be recovered if you lose your key because it is all pre-encrypted before being sent to iCloud. Again, if you lose your key, there is no recovery possible. We'll also be opening up a new bug-bounty program specifically for identifying weaknesses and exploits in our baseband, firmware, and OS that could result in the leaking of your encryption keys and personal data. Here at Apple, we take your privacy serious."
    - efdee 12y ago
      I don't see any promise there that they won't somehow store your encryption key in a place where they can access it. I see a huge line saying "we invite you to try and catch us and if so we will try to find another way that you haven't yet found out about". So I think you failed on your premise.
allegory 12y ago
I think people are outraged at both. With the companies in question, it's not hard to vote with your feet and complain. With the government, it's very difficult.
- ddebernardy 12y ago
  You get the government you vote for.
  - adventured 12y ago
    You get the government the majority of voters vote for.
    - CamperBob2 12y ago
      You also get the one the majority didn't vote for, since it's more or less indistinguishable from the one they did vote for.
    - mkal_tsr 12y ago
      Minus that whole lobbying, "corps are people (only when convenient)", and gerrymandering thing, exactly!
    - ddebernardy 12y ago
      I'd agree if US voters actually bothered to go voting, and participated in their own democracy instead of turning their brains off and watching TV. But seeing how they don't, the US really gets the government that the most active/noisy minory supports. (The same is largely true in the EU, even though it's possibly more pronounced the US.)
  - allegory 12y ago
    No, that's not how it works. You get the most heavily marketed party that pissed the least number of people off in the last couple of years.
    - 12y ago

by jwr 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

Drakim 12y ago

Often it seems like the people want businesses to take up the fight for privacy, rather than the people themselves.

enneff 12y ago
And why not? Businesses, through lobbying, essentially control the US government. It's not unreasonable that American citizens might feel more empowered voting with their dollars than with ballot papers.
- happyscrappy 12y ago
  People don't care about privacy or they wouldn't be using Android.
- ilobby 12y ago
  Excellent point. So do it. iLobby.co
- ilobby 12y ago
  It was about three $3.2 billion last year in 2013 from the federally registered lobbyists. The state level is probably equal to that. Some think the real numbers are closer to $9 billion at the federal level because PR and consulting don't have to be filed with the Senate clerk. https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/ https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/
seanhandley 12y ago
Explain to me how businesses aren't people ?
- freehunter 12y ago
  Business are made of people, but a business is not a person in and of itself. That's why we have the saying "design by committee", because a group of people doing something will not lead to the same result of one person doing something.

mkal_tsr 12y ago

Is this directed at me? I'm not outraged at Apple at all, I think they're trying to play the long game here. I'm just sick of the word games, deception, and legalese from anyone regarding privacy. It's hard enough fully understanding exactly how all the pieces fit together (technology, laws, politics, etc.) for people that are genuinely interested in this, let alone the average consumer. Pointing out loopholes in wording helps to start conversations about what is/isn't happening as well as what could happen/be-abused.

jwr 12y ago
Well, I think whatever Apple says, you will find a "loophole" in the wording that supposedly allows them to do evil things. Try it: pretend you are Apple and just try writing a statement that you would consider acceptable and that you wouldn't call "word games, deception and legalese". Myself, I think they did fairly well, certainly the best of any tech company out there today.
- mkal_tsr 12y ago
  > Try it: pretend you are Apple and just try writing a statement that you would consider acceptable and that you wouldn't call "word games, deception and legalese". Ok. "We're enabling custom encryption key management. You may now generate and use your own encryption keys. In addition to ensuring the device data is encrypted, nothing in your iCloud account can be recovered if you lose your key because it is all pre-encrypted before being sent to iCloud. Again, if you lose your key, there is no recovery possible. We'll also be opening up a new bug-bounty program specifically for identifying weaknesses and exploits in our baseband, firmware, and OS that could result in the leaking of your encryption keys and personal data. Here at Apple, we take your privacy serious."
  - efdee 12y ago
    I don't see any promise there that they won't somehow store your encryption key in a place where they can access it. I see a huge line saying "we invite you to try and catch us and if so we will try to find another way that you haven't yet found out about". So I think you failed on your premise.

allegory 12y ago

I think people are outraged at both. With the companies in question, it's not hard to vote with your feet and complain. With the government, it's very difficult.

ddebernardy 12y ago
You get the government you vote for.
- adventured 12y ago
  You get the government the majority of voters vote for.
  - CamperBob2 12y ago
    You also get the one the majority didn't vote for, since it's more or less indistinguishable from the one they did vote for.
  - mkal_tsr 12y ago
    Minus that whole lobbying, "corps are people (only when convenient)", and gerrymandering thing, exactly!
  - ddebernardy 12y ago
    I'd agree if US voters actually bothered to go voting, and participated in their own democracy instead of turning their brains off and watching TV. But seeing how they don't, the US really gets the government that the most active/noisy minory supports. (The same is largely true in the EU, even though it's possibly more pronounced the US.)
- allegory 12y ago
  No, that's not how it works. You get the most heavily marketed party that pissed the least number of people off in the last couple of years.
  - 12y ago