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So the US is now a country where mainstream companies market it as a competitive advantage that they will try to minimize what they will release to the governme

So the US is now a country where mainstream companies market it as a competitive advantage that they will try to minimize what they will release to the government. I'm glad companies are doing this, but I'm sad that they even have to.

zaroth 12y ago
The desire for privacy, and a healthy dose of suspicion for ones government, have both existed for as long as the notion of government itself. Personally, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Now that the police can't go to Apple for your data, we'll start seeing more judges ordering users to unlock their phones to allow them to be searched. I don't think it will be long before such a case reaches SCOTUS, and then we'll see how that works out...
- sarkhan 12y ago
  > Now that the police can't go to Apple for your data, we'll start seeing more judges ordering users to unlock their phones to allow them to be searched Is not that against 5th amendment?
- clamprecht 12y ago
  The US government forced Lavabit to install a back door that didn't exist before (or go out of business, which isn't really an option for Apple). I wonder what is to legally stop the government from forcing Apple to do the same? I guess one answer is that Apple has more resources to fight or lobby.
  - res0nat0r 12y ago
    Lavabit wasn't forced to install a backdoor, the guy running it just kept refusing to comply with previous legal requests which were much narrower in scope. Since he didn't comply they took the nuclear option (which he could have easily prevented).
    - someone234 12y ago
      Prevented by complying, ie. selling out his customers' privacy?
      - res0nat0r 12y ago
        By not complying he 'sold out' every single one of his customers privacy instead of the sensible choice of complying with the legal order to turn over emails of just one customer.
    - scott_karana 12y ago
      Whether or not he was in contempt, that's still a bullshit way to approach the problem. Contempt of court? Fine and then jail him for non-compliance. Seize Lavabit's assets if required. I doubt he would have let it come to that. But their solution was analogous to "won't give us back that alleged stolen $20 we told you about? We want your whole bank balance." Aww hell naw.
      - res0nat0r 12y ago
        None of this would have happened if he would have complied with the legal court order. I guess he made his point, but he screwed over his customers twice in this case. First by dumbing down his crypto to be easier to use and allowing it to be broken as it did by the feds, and second screwing every customer over by not complying and shutting down his service.
- x0x0 12y ago
  I am no lawyer. While lower court decisions have gone both ways, according to wikipedia, in United States v. Doe, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit ruled on 24 February 2012 that forcing the decryption of one's laptop violates the Fifth Amendment [1] So there is hope. Perhaps a more practical problem is even with a 5 digit pin, it's entirely possible to simply try all combinations. You probably need more than 8 digits before that becomes impossible. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_State...
  - matt-attack 12y ago
    > even with a 5 digit pin, it's entirely possible to simply try all combinations Given a long time. Don't forget iOS slows your brute-force attempts down substantially. I'd be curious how long a brute-force attack would take given the current behavior of the OS.
    - kissickas 12y ago
      Is there no way to duplicate the whole filesystem onto a computer and try decrypting that? I didn't think they would actually be thumbing in every password combination...
      - shalmanese 12y ago
        There is supposedly no way of duplicating the secure element which is what controls the encryption.
ZoFreX 12y ago
This is hardly a unique situation for the US. There are lots of countries where the state is surveilling their own citizens en masse, some for much more nefarious purposes, and it's not all tiny dictatorships either - plenty of large Western countries are doing it. From my perspective (as someone in the UK) it's actually really refreshing that in the US, some companies are pushing this as a competitive advantage. That means people actually care about it and will make decisions based on it, which is far better than the total apathy I'm surrounded by here. Companies having to work to minimise what is released to the government is not unique to the US; the fact that they are however is relatively rare.

zaroth 12y ago

The desire for privacy, and a healthy dose of suspicion for ones government, have both existed for as long as the notion of government itself. Personally, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Now that the police can't go to Apple for your data, we'll start seeing more judges ordering users to unlock their phones to allow them to be searched. I don't think it will be long before such a case reaches SCOTUS, and then we'll see how that works out...

sarkhan 12y ago
> Now that the police can't go to Apple for your data, we'll start seeing more judges ordering users to unlock their phones to allow them to be searched Is not that against 5th amendment?
clamprecht 12y ago
The US government forced Lavabit to install a back door that didn't exist before (or go out of business, which isn't really an option for Apple). I wonder what is to legally stop the government from forcing Apple to do the same? I guess one answer is that Apple has more resources to fight or lobby.
- res0nat0r 12y ago
  Lavabit wasn't forced to install a backdoor, the guy running it just kept refusing to comply with previous legal requests which were much narrower in scope. Since he didn't comply they took the nuclear option (which he could have easily prevented).
  - someone234 12y ago
    Prevented by complying, ie. selling out his customers' privacy?
    - res0nat0r 12y ago
      By not complying he 'sold out' every single one of his customers privacy instead of the sensible choice of complying with the legal order to turn over emails of just one customer.
  - scott_karana 12y ago
    Whether or not he was in contempt, that's still a bullshit way to approach the problem. Contempt of court? Fine and then jail him for non-compliance. Seize Lavabit's assets if required. I doubt he would have let it come to that. But their solution was analogous to "won't give us back that alleged stolen $20 we told you about? We want your whole bank balance." Aww hell naw.
    - res0nat0r 12y ago
      None of this would have happened if he would have complied with the legal court order. I guess he made his point, but he screwed over his customers twice in this case. First by dumbing down his crypto to be easier to use and allowing it to be broken as it did by the feds, and second screwing every customer over by not complying and shutting down his service.
x0x0 12y ago
I am no lawyer. While lower court decisions have gone both ways, according to wikipedia, in United States v. Doe, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit ruled on 24 February 2012 that forcing the decryption of one's laptop violates the Fifth Amendment [1] So there is hope. Perhaps a more practical problem is even with a 5 digit pin, it's entirely possible to simply try all combinations. You probably need more than 8 digits before that becomes impossible. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_State...
- matt-attack 12y ago
  > even with a 5 digit pin, it's entirely possible to simply try all combinations Given a long time. Don't forget iOS slows your brute-force attempts down substantially. I'd be curious how long a brute-force attack would take given the current behavior of the OS.
  - kissickas 12y ago
    Is there no way to duplicate the whole filesystem onto a computer and try decrypting that? I didn't think they would actually be thumbing in every password combination...
    - shalmanese 12y ago
      There is supposedly no way of duplicating the secure element which is what controls the encryption.

ZoFreX 12y ago

This is hardly a unique situation for the US. There are lots of countries where the state is surveilling their own citizens en masse, some for much more nefarious purposes, and it's not all tiny dictatorships either - plenty of large Western countries are doing it. From my perspective (as someone in the UK) it's actually really refreshing that in the US, some companies are pushing this as a competitive advantage. That means people actually care about it and will make decisions based on it, which is far better than the total apathy I'm surrounded by here. Companies having to work to minimise what is released to the government is not unique to the US; the fact that they are however is relatively rare.