4 ms·

NB I haven't read the article; I try to keep it tech related at work. NB I'm male, white, 31 years old, born poor, raised isolated, computers brought me out of

NB I haven't read the article; I try to keep it tech related at work. NB I'm male, white, 31 years old, born poor, raised isolated, computers brought me out of poverty, and people--specifically women--brought me out of isolation. Geeks are my original people, my first clan. I believed that The (dial up, text based) Internet was the great equalizer--that it was a medium which made it impossible to see race or sex or creed or weight or shape, that each entity could only be judge by its character, choice of moniker, and actions. The people you'd fall in love with were the ones that would create amazing things and share them... Remember? Ok, I've set the stage, now I've gotta ask... I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: are you trolling? Was there some great internet convention that I missed at which it was agreed by consensus to all act like idiots for a few years for some greater good? Seriously, what am I missing? You do know that women are people, right? Like, half the people, 3.5 billion women. [Update: Thus far the responses have indicated that I probably haven't asked the right question. In my country, the question as to whether or not a given entity "is a person" is an important, well known, well discussed question and the answer always carries a great number of implications. Pardon me, I'll try to improve the question, but it's unlikely that I'll make any progress on the timescale of days. These things are hard.] [Update: I should not have said "the people who say that men and women are different" when I meant to say "the people who use 'men and women are different' as a euphemism for something more insidious".]

api 12y ago
Totally crazy tangent but: I don't understand misogynistic guys who say awful things about how dumb / shallow / whatever women are and then in the next breath talk about their sexual interest in them. I mean... if I thought all those demeaning things about women, I'd have a tough time being sexually interested in one. I'd have to go asexual or gay.
- tomp 12y ago
  I say that women are dumb/shallow/whatever all the time. I'm sexually attracted to those that are not. (I also say that men are dumb/shallow/whatever all the time, so I'm not sexist, just an asshole, and exaggerating a bit). :)
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
enoch_r 12y ago
> I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: [...] You do know that women are people, right? Like, half the people, 3.5 billion women. Let's examine two claims: 1. "Group A is genetically predisposed to different behavior than Group B, to which I belong." 2. "Group A is culturally predisposed to different behavior than Group B, to which I belong." You claim that making statement (1) indicates that I disbelieve in the personhood of people in Group A. I assume that you do not believe the same about statement (2)--that is, it's possible for me to notice that men are more likely to be murderers without claiming that women aren't people, as long as I accept "culture" as the only explanation for the difference. I claim that both statements (1) and (2) are compatible with a belief in personhood of people in Group A. And this is much firmer ground, ideologically speaking. If presented with strong evidence of genetic differences between two groups, I am not forced to either deny the evidence or give up and accept that some groups aren't people anymore. I can simply say "even if the two groups are genetically different, this doesn't change a thing: personhood is not determined by someone's genetic similarity to me, people deserve respect, and prejudice is wrong even if it is somewhat predictive." Finally, in a situation where genetics clearly affect behavior or personality--for example, Asperger Syndrome--I don't need to shift around my values to claim that yes, autistic people are still people.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- daveloyall 12y ago
  I think I more or less understand what you are getting at. You're saying that my question was silly because it's not necessary to think that women aren't people in order to think that they ARE different than men. Okay. As I've indicated in a few places so far, I don't think I expressed my question as I'd intended to. enoch_r, you seem like a methodical sort of person, maybe you can help me think this through. I've jotted down some notes. 1. Basically I want to address internet misogynists, including but not limited to those that don't believe they are one. (I would like to exclude those who believe they are wrong and do it anyway. That's a whole 'nother conversation that might as well be had over a bottle.) 2. I believe that being a person is basically an excuse to get away with a lot of stuff, and an entitlement to receive the benefit of the doubt a lot. 3. I believe that one effective way to communicate is to present your own point in unfavorable terms. It's polite, saves a ton of time, and reminds yourself to avoid being defensive. Sometimes people even help you improve your point! 4. I believe that point 2 is true, most people believe it, and everybody benefits from it, and you're usually not aware that you're benefiting from it. But most people probably phrase it in more favorable terms. "The Golden Rule" is pretty catchy. 5. There's a comment here which states: > I don't think you can find a lot of sane individuals who believe women aren't humans. ...I believe that it's tragically easy to find otherwise sane individuals who don't really, in their heart of hearts, in their innermost thoughts, believe that women are people in the same way that they believe that they themselves are people. I can't imagine that misogyny would be so common otherwise... 6. To the group described in 1., with 5. in mind: You know they are. Knock it off!
dragonwriter 12y ago
> I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: [...] You do know that women are people, right? I often think that sex differences people perceive are exaggerated and/or misattributed to biology (including, but not limited to, genetics) when they are more likely cultural, but, believing that X (e.g., women) are different (either on average or categorically) from Y (e.g., men) is not inconsistent with believing that X and Y are both subsets of Z (e.g., people.)
gweinberg 12y ago
They're not trolling, you are. No one honestly disputes that there are psychological differences between men and women. No one.
- daveloyall 12y ago
  I certainly expected controversy, but I did not look forward to it. My argument is thus: what really makes me a person is some quality which both men and women posses, some quality which nothing else possesses--and that having that quality calls off all other bets.
lamb87 12y ago
>I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: are you trolling? Was there some great internet convention that I missed at which it was agreed by consensus to all act like idiots for a few years for some greater good? Women and men are different, both physically and psychologically. That might not mean women are less capable or inferior, but saying there are no differences between the genres is just silly and disingenuous.
- daveloyall 12y ago
  But, nothing in the universe is more similar to man than woman. Both men and women are sentient (self-aware, conscious). You know, human. :)
  - lamb87 12y ago
    I don't think you can find a lot of sane individuals who believe women aren't humans.
    - daveloyall 12y ago
      Yet, you find individuals and groups who don't treat them like humans. ...oh! Ipso facto: they aren't sane. :)

api 12y ago

Totally crazy tangent but: I don't understand misogynistic guys who say awful things about how dumb / shallow / whatever women are and then in the next breath talk about their sexual interest in them. I mean... if I thought all those demeaning things about women, I'd have a tough time being sexually interested in one. I'd have to go asexual or gay.

tomp 12y ago
I say that women are dumb/shallow/whatever all the time. I'm sexually attracted to those that are not. (I also say that men are dumb/shallow/whatever all the time, so I'm not sexist, just an asshole, and exaggerating a bit). :)

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

enoch_r 12y ago

> I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: [...] You do know that women are people, right? Like, half the people, 3.5 billion women. Let's examine two claims: 1. "Group A is genetically predisposed to different behavior than Group B, to which I belong." 2. "Group A is culturally predisposed to different behavior than Group B, to which I belong." You claim that making statement (1) indicates that I disbelieve in the personhood of people in Group A. I assume that you do not believe the same about statement (2)--that is, it's possible for me to notice that men are more likely to be murderers without claiming that women aren't people, as long as I accept "culture" as the only explanation for the difference. I claim that both statements (1) and (2) are compatible with a belief in personhood of people in Group A. And this is much firmer ground, ideologically speaking. If presented with strong evidence of genetic differences between two groups, I am not forced to either deny the evidence or give up and accept that some groups aren't people anymore. I can simply say "even if the two groups are genetically different, this doesn't change a thing: personhood is not determined by someone's genetic similarity to me, people deserve respect, and prejudice is wrong even if it is somewhat predictive." Finally, in a situation where genetics clearly affect behavior or personality--for example, Asperger Syndrome--I don't need to shift around my values to claim that yes, autistic people are still people.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
daveloyall 12y ago
I think I more or less understand what you are getting at. You're saying that my question was silly because it's not necessary to think that women aren't people in order to think that they ARE different than men. Okay. As I've indicated in a few places so far, I don't think I expressed my question as I'd intended to. enoch_r, you seem like a methodical sort of person, maybe you can help me think this through. I've jotted down some notes. 1. Basically I want to address internet misogynists, including but not limited to those that don't believe they are one. (I would like to exclude those who believe they are wrong and do it anyway. That's a whole 'nother conversation that might as well be had over a bottle.) 2. I believe that being a person is basically an excuse to get away with a lot of stuff, and an entitlement to receive the benefit of the doubt a lot. 3. I believe that one effective way to communicate is to present your own point in unfavorable terms. It's polite, saves a ton of time, and reminds yourself to avoid being defensive. Sometimes people even help you improve your point! 4. I believe that point 2 is true, most people believe it, and everybody benefits from it, and you're usually not aware that you're benefiting from it. But most people probably phrase it in more favorable terms. "The Golden Rule" is pretty catchy. 5. There's a comment here which states: > I don't think you can find a lot of sane individuals who believe women aren't humans. ...I believe that it's tragically easy to find otherwise sane individuals who don't really, in their heart of hearts, in their innermost thoughts, believe that women are people in the same way that they believe that they themselves are people. I can't imagine that misogyny would be so common otherwise... 6. To the group described in 1., with 5. in mind: You know they are. Knock it off!

dragonwriter 12y ago

> I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: [...] You do know that women are people, right? I often think that sex differences people perceive are exaggerated and/or misattributed to biology (including, but not limited to, genetics) when they are more likely cultural, but, believing that X (e.g., women) are different (either on average or categorically) from Y (e.g., men) is not inconsistent with believing that X and Y are both subsets of Z (e.g., people.)

gweinberg 12y ago

They're not trolling, you are. No one honestly disputes that there are psychological differences between men and women. No one.

daveloyall 12y ago
I certainly expected controversy, but I did not look forward to it. My argument is thus: what really makes me a person is some quality which both men and women posses, some quality which nothing else possesses--and that having that quality calls off all other bets.

lamb87 12y ago

>I gotta ask the people who say that women are different from men: are you trolling? Was there some great internet convention that I missed at which it was agreed by consensus to all act like idiots for a few years for some greater good? Women and men are different, both physically and psychologically. That might not mean women are less capable or inferior, but saying there are no differences between the genres is just silly and disingenuous.

daveloyall 12y ago
But, nothing in the universe is more similar to man than woman. Both men and women are sentient (self-aware, conscious). You know, human. :)
- lamb87 12y ago
  I don't think you can find a lot of sane individuals who believe women aren't humans.
  - daveloyall 12y ago
    Yet, you find individuals and groups who don't treat them like humans. ...oh! Ipso facto: they aren't sane. :)